Ming the Mechanic:
Denmark vs Mohammed

The NewsLog of Flemming Funch
 Denmark vs Mohammed2006-01-30 23:59
857 comments
picture by Flemming Funch

I didn't think I would get to see that. Muslims burning Danish flags in the street. OK, maybe because Denmark joined Bush's ill-conceived invasion of Iraq. But that isn't it at all. We're talking about cartoons. Yahoo News
BEIRUT, Lebanon - The controversy over Danish caricatures of Prophet Muhammad escalated Monday as gunmen seized an EU office in Gaza and Muslims appealed for a trade boycott of Danish products. Denmark called for its citizens in the Middle East to exercise vigilance.

Denmark-based Arla Foods, which has been the target of a widespread boycott in the Middle East, reported that two of its employees in Saudi Arabia were beaten by angry customers. Aid groups, meanwhile, pulled workers out of Gaza, citing the threat of hostilities.

The 12 drawings — published in a Danish paper in September and in a Norwegian paper this month — included an image of the prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse. Islamic tradition bars any depiction of the prophet, even respectful ones, out of concern that such images could lead to idolatry.

Danish government officials have expressed regret over the furor but have refused to get involved, citing freedom of expression. The Jyllands-Posten newspaper has refused to apologize for publishing the drawings and has said it did not mean to insult Islam.
OK, maybe it wasn't the greatest idea in the world to ask some cartoonists for pictures of the Prophet Mohammed. But, hey, Denmark is a free country where nobody will get away with taking themselves too seriously. So, if you want to make a funny, irreverant or insulting picture of the Pope, Queen Elizabeth, Jesus, Elvis, George Bush ... or Mohammed, then... so what. Might be funny, might not be.

But a lot of muslims apparently feel that their god gets gravely insulted by Danish cartoons of his prophet with a funny hat on. Which, however much I'd like to respect a diversity of beliefs, I can't really find a way of looking at it that doesn't make me question the sanity of whole lot of people.

I think that what these folks maybe don't understand is that Denmark is a country where the government doesn't control the press. Maybe that's a novel idea. Yes, if the prime minister had made fun of Mohammed, that would have been very dumb, and he should probably apologize, for the sake of good diplomacy. But there's no way he can give an official apology for a cartoon in a newspaper, and he shouldn't. So, now Saudi Arabia has recalled their ambassador, Libia is closing its embassy, Egypt is refusing a loan they otherwise were eager to get, and Danish products are being boycotted.


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857 comments

31 Jan 2006 @ 01:08 by Neferteeti @220.238.146.223 : Denmark Vs Mohammad
Or should we say Islam Vs freedom of expression?
So what?! let them boycot the Danes and refuse their loans. For the sake of upholding precious freedoms, the Danes should NEVER NEVER apologise.  



31 Jan 2006 @ 01:27 by vibrani : It's alright
for Muslims to demean non-Muslims any way and any time they choose, but not okay for a cartoon in a paper about them? Cry me a river. Can't wait to see Albert Brooks' new film about finding humor in Muslim countries. Think he found any?  


31 Jan 2006 @ 01:38 by ming : Islam
Well, I'm not going to say that it is the religion of Islam versus lots of other things. All the religions I'm aware of appear to be originally based on some fundamental principles which are nice and reasonable enough, including Islam. Where it goes wrong is much later in the chain, where interpretations of interpretations have been twisted around so much that some people believe some really wacko things, and, worse, that they're sure they're right about them. It still isn't any reason to condemn the whole subject. Some people might actually be able to think with it.  


31 Jan 2006 @ 04:31 by vibrani : Unfortunately
it is the wacko and twisted things that are the spokespeople/terrorists by and large for Islam.  


31 Jan 2006 @ 07:56 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : Denmark VS Mohammad
Back in April of 2003, an EU public poll of 7500 EU citizens found that 59% of them feel that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace. The EU without hesitance intervened to condemn the Poll as anti-Jewish. I wonder why does freedom of speech is only brought up when the matter comes to insulting Islam and Muslims. Can that same Danish newspaper publish an article to allege that only 5 million Jews were killed during the Nazi Holocaust and not 6 million? Will anybody talk about freedom of speech then?

I agree with you on one point: The Danes are free to publish or insult whoever they wish. We as Muslims are also free to purchase or not purchase the products we want. Its all about freedom isn't it?.

My message to fellow Danes is: It was nice having you as friends for the past few decades. Now that you have insulted us for no reason and refused to apologize, we wouldn't want to hear from you again.  



31 Jan 2006 @ 08:52 by jazzolog : Well Said Mohammad Kanaan
I can't think of a single religion that would not feel offense if its God(s) or prophet(s) were depicted wearing a "funny hat." It may be an unfortunate trait in human character that I can make fun of my family...but you can't. Nevertheless here we are. Accepting slings and arrows seems to be a major hurdle on each path if humanity ever is to achieve Peace.

But there's more: there's the act of apology. In the States we toss off apologies like farts and belches. On his weekly Le Show, humorist Harry Shearer presents a segment called Apologies Of The Week, in which he simply reads the assembled apologies by most Americans to each other that have made the news. His point, demonstrated one after the other, is that people here don't really apologize at all. Most of them say something like, "I am so sorry you misunderstood what I really meant," or "I am so sorry you took my comment out of context." In other words, it's really YOUR fault. How does that stuff go down in France and Denmark?

We might also remember that when one group is under attack or attacking with troops and bombs, we tend to get in a little different state of sensitivity. We might even give up all our "rights" just to make the fear go away.  



31 Jan 2006 @ 11:38 by ming : Insults
>My message to fellow Danes is: It was nice having you as friends for the past few decades. Now that you have insulted us for no reason and refused to apologize, we wouldn't want to hear from you again.

Now, that's where it gets wacky. There's around 5 million people in Denmark. All of them didn't insult all muslims because a newspaper printed some cartoon pictures of Mohammed. As a matter of fact, most of them were not involved at all. That handful of people who were probably didn't mean it as an insult to all muslims. But in case they somehow did, those would be the people to ask for an apology.

And, seriously, if that's how deep your friendships go, it doesn't really count for much.

Denmark, like most western countries, consists of individuals. Within the limits of the law, individuals are free to do what they're inspired to do, including to say or draw what they'd like to. If a newspaper publishes a drawing, it isn't because all Danes somehow had a conference and a vote and decided it was the thing to do. It is not gonna happen. Thinking that you need to punish "Danes" because a couple of them made a drawing that you didn't like is kind of like kicking your house because the mail is late, and then asking your neighbor for an apology. It is dumb, a lack of understanding of cause and effect and how things are connected together. And, no, that's not an insult against muslims, but a comment about bad reasoning. If somebody offends you, you might look for an apology. If they didn't offend you, they're not likely to apologize for doing so.

>Can that same Danish newspaper publish an article to allege that only 5 million Jews were killed during the Nazi Holocaust and not 6 million? Will anybody talk about freedom of speech then?

There you're probably right. That's a touchy subject all across Europe and in the U.S. and, yes, something you can't talk freely about without having a bunch of people accuse of of all sorts of things. That's unfortunate. In the U.S. the same goes for black people. Everybody's bending over backwards to not accidentally say something offensive, and if you do, you're suddenly a racist who's on the side of slavery and the holocaust.

Anyway, I'm against generalizations based on race or religion. It isn't valid to say that ALL muslims are so-and-so, or that ALL black people do something-or-the-other. Of course there are certain traits or beliefs or behaviors that statistically will be exhibited by various groups. But that's very difficult to talk about, because somebody usually will jump to some universal generalization. Like, if somebody said something bad about some Jewish people, he's against Jews, or if some Danes offended some Muslims, then all Danes offend all Muslims, of if you think some particular black guy is dumb and lazy, you're being a racist who thinks blacks are dumb and lazy.

Humans often have faulty mental circuitry when it comes to noticing the difference between one, two and everybody.

Like, you noticed when that 59% survey came out, the Israeli government got very offended, called Europe anti-semitic, and asked for an apology and retraction. Which, again is a bizarrely crazy logic. It was a survey. It asked people their opinion on something, and they answered. You can't then go and ask these people's governments to take it back and apologize for their offense, because there wasn't any. That's what people answered, period. It wasn't an official message to Jewish people, it was some numbers tabulated from a survey. But it certainly should have told the Israeli government something about what they're doing, and nothing that has anything to do with their race or religion.  



31 Jan 2006 @ 11:46 by Johan @83.88.252.162 : A word
just a word from a dane, standing on the outside, watching this escalating.
[link]  



31 Jan 2006 @ 11:55 by ming : Denmark and Islam
Thank you for that thoughtful posting, Johan. Yes, for a Dane it is confusing, strange, unexpected. Danes don't think like that, Danes don't respond to anything in any remotely similar fashion. Would Danes suddenly boycott Chinese goods if some Chinese cartoonist drew a picture of Queen Margrethe wearing a moustache? Of course not, it is totally mindnumbingly bizarre to imagine such a thing for a Dane. World views are colliding.  


31 Jan 2006 @ 12:57 by vibrani : It is absurd
to think Israel as the biggest threat to the world. Israel didn't create 9/11, nor does it teach and send terrorists around the world; planting bombs, as human bombs, blowing up anyone who isn't a Jew for god and then celebrating they've murdered someone. Muslims are the biggest world threat, say it like it is. From the Phillipines, to Indonesia, the Middle East, to Europe, everywhere.

It was Muslims who were responsible for the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon; the Munich Olympics massacre; the Achille Lauro hijacking at sea; the Lod Airport shootings; countless foreign assassinations and murders of dissidents among his own ranks; the politically motivated airline hijacking; the cold-blooded killer of U.S. diplomats. Arab Muslims blew up hundreds of young Israelis going about their daily lives, and the luckily foiled plan to destroy Israel with the arms carried on the Karine-A. Do you recall 1970, when Arafat leading the PLO hijacked four civilian planes demanding that European governments release PLO terrorists from their prisons? After the Europe agreed, and the PLO agreed that the hostages would be released, the PLO blew up the planes. In 1972, alone, the PLO blew up a West German electricity plant, a Dutch gas plant and an oil refinery in Trieste, Italy; kill, in conjunction with the Japanese Red Army, 24 at Israel's Lod airport; and massacre 11 Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics. In 1973, Black September took the American ambassador and his deputy (along with one Belgian diplomat) hostage in Sudan's capital, Khartoum, and, after President Nixon refused to negotiate, murdered them. This is the man who got a Nobel Peace Prize. Who blew up malls in many countries - Australia sure got a rude awakening recently? You might want to read this: [link]

Who murders their own daughters simply because they don't want to marry someone, or because they want to be free? (Honor killings - hello!) Or, what about forced female genital mutilation in the name of Islam - to torture women, not allow them their natural right to have sex and enjoy it? Many women die from that barbaric surgery. Ask the Christians in Jerusalem who the biggest threat is. It isn't Jewish Israel. It is the Muslims. Islam does not mean "peace." It does mean "submission" or "surrender of one's will to the laws of Islam and Allah." Everyone who is not a Muslim is an infidel.

Evoking the lesson of the Holocaust, Yad Vashem urged the international community to take immediate action to stop the mass murder going on in Sudan. The rare public warning issued by Israel's Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority calls on the world to "act before it is too late" and stop the slaughter going on in Sudan's western Darfur region, which "includes aspects of ethnic cleansing and perhaps even genocide."

Yad Vashem (Israeli) urges world leaders to take immediate concerted action to halt the tragedy in Darfur before it devolves further, to provide effective humanitarian aid to the region and to punish the perpetrators of the heinous crimes that are being committed there," a press release issued Sunday read. Tens of thousands of black Africans have died in more than a year of violence that has turned into a systematic slaughter carried out by Arab militiamen in Darfur, a vast and remote region in western Sudan the size of Iraq.

The United Nations estimates up to 30,000 people have been killed in the violence, although some analysts say that the death toll is in fact much higher. The fighting, which broke out 15 months ago, has forced over one million to flee their homes, while more than 2 million people are in desperate need of food and medicine. The violence erupted when two groups drawn from Darfur's African tribes took up arms over what they regard as unjust treatment by the government in their long-simmering struggle over land and resources with Arab countrymen.

The Arab militias then began attacking the black Africans. The deadly African violence comes as the world marked 10 years since the 1994 Rwandan genocide where at least 500,000 and as many as 1,000,000 people were murdered in 100 days. "It is imperative that we learn the lesson from past failures to respond in time to evolving, genocidal evil," Yad Vashem said. "The red line for world response has to be much before a Holocaust or genocide, said the director of Yad Vashem's library, Dr. Robert Rozett.

Since 2000, in Algiers, Algeria, twenty-five people, including a family of twelve, were killed in the past three days during a surge of violence in Algeria, where an Islamic insurgency continues to claim new lives on an almost daily basis, news reports said on Oct. 21.

Arab militias in Sudan are gang-raping and abducting girls as young as eight and women as old as 80 in Lebanon, systematically killing, torturing, or using them as sex slaves.

Who is talking genocide today? Iran, Muslims - against Israel and Jews.

Those are only a few examples. So don't tell me it's Israel who is the greatest threat. What nonsense. Some people just can't face reality.  



31 Jan 2006 @ 13:49 by jazzolog : By The Way
Happy New Year.

The Muslim World marks today Amun Jadid, the Islamic New Year. As the first day of the month of Muharram in the Hijrah year 1427, today marks the Hijrah in 622 CE when the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) moved from Mecca to Medina and set up the first Islamic state.
[link]  



31 Jan 2006 @ 22:01 by D.D. @80.197.50.163 : My own personal Fatwa.
Today I learned that muslim rebels in Iraq have issued a Fatwa against the Danish troops who are there as Denmark’s contribution to the Coalition. This shouldn’t really surprise anyone, as the issuing of Fatwas seems to be the standard answer to anything the muslims don’t like.

In honour of this latest Fatwa I have taken it upon myself to issue a Fatwa of my own.

I hereby decree that due to my blatantly apparent moral and ethical superiority to the Islamic extremists the following orders shall be carried out.

All Danish companies shall hire muslims only to carry out the most demeaning and trivial of tasks, and only if such tasks are rewarded with a low salary.

All Danish Universities and places of higher learning shall only accept one in a hundred muslims, and let even fewer graduate.

The Danish Police and Danish Courts shall arrest and convict muslims in such a number as to make them disproportionately represented in the various crime statistics (Sometimes by a ratio so disproportionate that they will be more than 1000 times more likely to commit certain crimes than native Danes)

The Danish Population shall treat muslims with contempt wherever they encounter them, leaving them to feel isolated both socially and economically.

So let it be written, so let it be done. My every command shall be carried out.




Wow, my Fatwa is already working….  



1 Feb 2006 @ 02:42 by vibrani : The sane voice of Islam
please read my log about Sheik Palazzi, as he is the sane and balanced, healthy voice of Islam. Unfortunately, Muslims like Palazzi are a minority. But maybe if more people learn about him things can change. [link]  


1 Feb 2006 @ 05:59 by ashanti : Uhhh, Ming.....
You opened this can of worms. :-)

You state:
"Anyway, I'm against generalizations based on race or religion"
"Humans often have faulty mental circuitry when it comes to noticing the difference between one, two and everybody."

and then later you say: "Danes don't think like that, Danes don't respond to anything in any remotely similar fashion"

ALL Danes????? Ooops.

What about Muslim Danes? And does that mean ALL Muslim Danes? What about individual Muslim Danes?

Just adding some parmesan (partisan) to the semantic spaghetti. :-)

I do agree with you that the prime cause of conflict in our world is the inability to a) even comprehend viewpoints other than one's own b) tolerate different viewpoints, so long as they are not harmful and destructive to others/the planet/the universe.

- ashanti  



1 Feb 2006 @ 06:34 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : Happy new year to all
> Now, that's where it gets wacky. There's around 5 million people in Denmark. All of them didn't insult all muslims because a newspaper printed some cartoon pictures of Mohammed....

Those cartoons were published 4 months ago, the real fury by Muslims came only recently when a public poll in Denmark showed that 79% felt that an apology is NOT in order and when the prime minister refused even to meet with a Danish Muslim delegation. To me it felt that the whole country approves of it and this is when I started to feel that Danish butter doesn't taste as good any more. Our goal is not to punish anybody, its about psychology: When you go to a shop to buy goods and the person doesn't respect you, you walk away.

> There you're probably right. That's a touchy subject all across Europe and in the U.S. and, yes, something you can't talk freely about without having a bunch of people accuse of of all sorts of things.

What many people are failing to appreciate is that you have your own touchy subjects that you don't allow people to talk about and we Muslims have our own. How convenient it is to stop people from talking about your touchy subjects while feel the right to insult and slander others.

My comment about the EU poll of Israel was not intended to bring the subject into this forum. All I was trying to highlight is the hypocrisy of the Danish and EU positions when they make claims about unlimited freedom of speech on one hand and then they meet to condemn a public poll of their own citizens.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 08:55 by Ali @80.84.141.91 : Oh God Bless our prophet Mohammad
Oh God Bless our prophet Mohammad
That's so shamed on Denmark to do something like that.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 11:11 by Kim @80.161.98.52 : Selective...
Mohammad Kanaan. You take things out of context to promote your own case. The poll consisted of 1.000 people. And over 50% said, that they understood, why Muslims were upset, because the pictures were offending. The poll where 79% didnt felt an apology was in order, was because the Muslims want it from the Government. Almost 50% thought it had to come from the newspaper, who publiced the cartoons. Why should the danish people and the danish Government apologize for something, we havent done. The Danish can and shall not interfere with the freedom of expression. Its up to the danish court to decide if the newspaper has gone to far. Not the government.  


1 Feb 2006 @ 11:40 by Hanan Taha @196.202.86.251 : clearing a point
Mohammed Kanaan...Thank you, You've made a clear point :hypocrisy of the Danish and EU positions when they make claims about unlimited freedom of speech on one hand and then they meet to condemn a public poll of their own citizens.

This is exactly the situation as every nation has its own sensitive issue which is being refused to talk about in an offensive way.
We love Prophet Mohammed ( Peace be upon him) more than our own families and when you love someone,you refuse any offense to him.
This is not a situation of punishment as it is as a blame ( a general blame ).
everything has limits , even the free speech, and this is one of the limits.You can critisize terrorists as being a bunch of psychic people , but don't relate them to whole muslims and the muslims' prophet because they call themselves muslims.We even despise them as you do.
what Jylland Posten did is exactly the generalization that you hate.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 12:22 by ming : Generalizing
Ashanti, you're right. I noticed the self-contradiction after I posted it, but decided to leave it as-is.

Can I generalize about Danish people, while saying that it is wrong to generalize about Danish people? I suppose where I usually feel alright about generalizing about a group of people is where it is in a fairly positive setting, and an attempt of understanding the sort of group consciousness in some area. So, I might happily say that Danish people do this, and French people do that, because this is how they think, etc. The trouble would start if, hahah, I generalize my generalization. I.e. if I actually expect ALL Danish or French people to think and do exactly like I said. And I would try to either fault all of them for doing so, or I would fault somebody for not being like they're supposed to, according to my generalization.

So, we might learn something by synthesizing what a "Dane" is like, or what a "Muslim" is like. And an insurance company can calculate how a "Female Driver" behaves. All of which might provide some reasonable predictions if one is dealing with many people. But which is utterly useless in making a reliable prediction for an individual. And which becomes the cause of injustice, hate and wars when applied unthinkingly to ALL of that category, and used to condemn them.

Generalizations can be useful for understanding complex situations, but become a source of insanity when we run them backwards, and insist that the world must conform to our generalizations, or else.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 12:58 by Ahmed Fakhroo @82.194.62.23 : Danes sick joke - freedom of speech
Mohammad Kanaan style of superb argument is a reflection of a very Muslim civilized person thinking who must speak truth in accordance with the Islamic teachings. However, What I couldn’t understand is why the Danish paper picked up on the greatest character humanity has borne such as Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him) to poison the relations amongst Danes Muslim & Non-Muslim population, in particular, and the Danes and the Muslim population of the world in general. It was a very vicious, offensive move to say the least.

Further, why was it the Prophet (PBUH) who died 14 centuries ago? If the paper has its own agenda against Muslims; she could have chosen any of the present Muslim Leaders or/ celebrities and attacked or/ ridiculed him as she wished. Why the Prophet (PBUH) in particular, and not one of the contemporary characters who are in hundreds. That was not a sheer coincidence. It was a conspiracy without doubt.

The freedom of speech is no longer marketable merchandise. This was in evidence when President Bush and his gang killed the Al-Jazira correspondents as well as trying to bomb their Studio Headquarter in Doha. Freedom of speech is a cheap game well-played by the West and was believed by the naive people, but nowadays, it is worthless in any bazaar in the Arab & Muslim Worlds.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 17:11 by Faisal @82.123.38.3 : Amazing!
A European poll which pointed to Israel as a threat was heavily protested and debated and discredited by its detractors.

Cartoons of Israelis (who are technically at war with Arabs) in the Arab press are heavily protested and we never hear the end of it.

Any negative depiction of a Jew in any media anywhere in western europe would get you in serious trouble, possilbly even jailed, even for debating the holocaust!

And you want Muslims to NOT protest the riddiculing of their prophet?!

Clear hypocricy and double standard on your part, oh civilised west.

We keep hearing day-in-day-out about how terrible and evil anti-semitism is.

You all know, and you alwyays try to lecture Muslims, that free speech must be responsible, and inflamatory material must be banned.

Then you turn around and you do this.

And now you say we dont have the right to NOT buy Danish or be insulted!

Amazing. Simply amazing.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 17:28 by anyone @83.253.16.163 : most people think
Ahmed Fakthroo:
What would you do if a newspaper in saudi-arabia or other muslim-nation draw a caricature of buddah or in some way offended other religions than islam ?
And newspapers had polls that showed that 80% of the population think that an apology is not in order.

By the way the poll wasn't about if the publication of the cartoon was right thing to do. It was about if it is right to apoligies for it. Non-muslims would say danish people fight for their freedom of speech/press and not to offend islam. But muslims would defend themsleves and think the opposite.

But I guess it's a question of interest and value. I don't intend to offend anyone but for me the value of freedom of speech/press is far more important than any prophet or god.

Mohammad Kanaan:
It is true what you say about psychologi, but what if you would find out that 80% of all people in non-muslim countries wouldn't give a rats-ass about muslims. Would you stop all import from those countries and go back to stone-age.


I follow a religion called FuckAllOtherReligionsInTheirAssHole. It's simple it only got two rules.

first holy rule: If anyone offends this religion, kill them.

second holy rule: Fuck all religions, fuck mohamed, fuck jesus, fuck moses, fuck buddha and all gods, godess, prophets, priest, priestess, icons and such up their pretty asses.

Now I fight my right of free religion.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 19:11 by keith manheck @24.147.41.86 : muhammed caricatures
I still haven't seen these cartoons that have gotten these Mulims in such a snit.Personally if it were any of the other main religions, all you would get is complaints. It always seems to be Muslims and their backward thinking
religion(yes I said it!!)who espouse violence agaist so many others. This planet would be so much better off without their fundamentalist views(the same here in the US with Christian fundies)If these animals want a Jihad, so be it!! I would much rather see the elimination of this cancer on civilization.
We need to preserve civilization as we know it. If 1 billion need to be eliminated to protect the remaining 5 billion so be it!!Harsh, I'll admit,but
we may be dealing with the survival of humanity here.(This should relly raise some hackles)  



1 Feb 2006 @ 20:37 by Daniel @80.88.153.206 : comment
Muslems feel that there is nothing wrong in wishing death to others (Aka "death to America" & now "death to Denmark") or burning up the symbol of sovereignty of others (witness the flag burning in the picture above). It is funny to think that only muslims have feelings that can be hurt. They wish death to other people and burn their flags and they think they have not hurt those peoples feelings. The issue in hand is that some western papers have made carricatures of mohammad and hence by implication Allah. That in the Muslim world is blasphemy. Now if Allah is all that powerful, muslims should allow Allah to bring wreak vengence on the sinners, after all there is something call "judgement day". For a muslim to come out and fight on behalf of Allah is an insult to Allah. Allah is all-powerfull, all-knowing and all-seeing. To come out and kill on his behalf shows that the muslim does not believe in Allah, he believes that his Allah is a powerless weakling who can not defend himself, it probably shows that his Allah does not exist.

So my advise to muslims is that you hurt and alliniate more people out there by chanting "death to them" and burning their flags which is the symbol of their freedom and sovereignty, afterall the caricatures were made not of Muslims but of their eternally living Allah who should be perfectly capable of dealing with those that sinned against him!  



1 Feb 2006 @ 21:09 by Daniel @80.88.153.206 : Further comments

I would like to point out that the decline of Christianity among western nations came about because of a worse stance taken by christian leaders during the middle ages (or is it thae dark ages?). During the period of inquisitition, centuries ago, blasphemy was a crime punishable by death. The laws were so draconian and harsh that to merely believe that the earth was round and not flat was to invite being quickly burned at the stake. The man who first translated the bible from latin to English (William Tindale, i believe) was promptly burnt at the stakes. Galileo escaped death by confessing that he made an error in his science theories about the earth being round.

Of course for any religion to believe that other peoples expressions is a blasphemy is to be in the path of decline like Christian doctrines of centuries ago. Muslims should believe that their Allah is perfectly capable of dealing with those who blapheme agaist him. To insist otherwise is to be like the inquisition leaders of the dark ages. Only a religion in decline will haunt others for not believing in it and insisting that its ways are the only right ways. If Muslims insist on imposing their will not only in their suppressive countries but also in the free countries of others, then it is only a matter of time before they are cast in the dustbin of history wherein lies the doctrine of the inquisitors of the dark ages. Change is a must and would come even if it's casualties are dark-age religions like islam!  



1 Feb 2006 @ 21:55 by ming : Offense
It is probably true that if a Danish newspaper published a collection of cartoons about Jews in gas chambers, the uproar would probably have forced the prime minister to end up apologizing. Even if it still didn't have anything to do with him or the Danish government. There's hypocrisy. So, I can understand if Muslims would feel that they have as much right to be offended as anybody else.

And they do. My issue is with the wrongful targetting and mis-assignment of responsibility. It was probably dumb of the newspaper to do what they did. Denmark has a Muslim population too, and they should have known that it would deeply offend a bunch of people, whether they have a right to publish cartoons or not.

But it still isn't something that the Danish government could have prevented or hindered, or that they have any kind of authority to prevent or hinder or forbid. The Danish society just isn't based on that kind of control, and that's a good thing.

The whole thing offends my sense of logic. If a company does something you don't like, by all means boycott it, and express your anger. If a government does something you don't like, speak out against it, demonstrate, or whatever. But try to pick the right target. If a journalist does something you don't like, you can maybe hold the newspaper responsible. You can maybe hold a company responsible that owns that newspaper. But you can't reasonably hold everybody with the same nationality responible. Not their government either, when nothing illegal or even out of the ordinary took place.

You have a right to your own religion. You have a right to believe things that some others might find really bizarre. You might reasonably expect others to treat your beliefs with respect when they're interacting with you. But you have no right to force others to not offend you. In particular, you have no right to demand that other people with other beliefs have to act according to yours back in their own territory.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 22:48 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : ........
Im an arab christian, living in the town of bethlehem, which is considered the birth of christianity. As most of you know, Islam makes about 90% of the population here, And let me tell you, it's like living in a farm full of pigs.

1st of all, Vibrani thank you.....You're the only one that stated the truth here, Islam is the source os terror, and i'm telling you this from experience, because i live with them "pigs" everyday. Just 2 days ago, 3 muslims attacked a christian grocer and robbed his store, and a week before that, another gang of muslims burned down a christian family's house just because they live in a muslim neighberhood.

Jesus christ said that no other prophets will come after him, and that if someone does come then he is a fake, well, mohammed came after jesus, and made a religion based on sex ! The prophet married over 30 women and slept with a different woman each night, and yet muslims makes their girls wear the "hijab" which is the peace of cloth on their heads and even force them not to have sex ever ?? Give me a break.
I'm sure some of you think i made this up, well what can i say, you're not living where i am.....because where i'm living you will become a racist no matter what you do..... they steal your land and murder your women and children for the name of "allah", How the f*ck can god say go and murder christians enlightened by my son jesus) in my name??? You tell me

Btw sorry for my lousy english :S  



1 Feb 2006 @ 22:57 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : Forgot something
I forgot to say that there is NOTHING wrong with those drawings, this is how the world sees islam, a bunch of ugly terrorists going around killing people and then going to celebrate...freakin' barbarics.
As for christian arabs living among these pigs, what can i say, americans and europeans see us as terrorists, which we are not, and israelis see us as palestinians, and muslims say us as kafirs( non muslims that should be killed)....and more than that, these ugly terrorists are stealing our land, we are truly the ones that are hurting the most from this :|  



1 Feb 2006 @ 23:07 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : 1 last thing
1 more thing.
Even though palestinians are at war with israelis, I have to admit israel is not doing anything wrong, it's those muslim creeps that go around blowing up women with their little kids that are jumping around harmlessly in a toy store, us christians here dont have anything against israel, and israel knows that. About 6 months ago a muslim raped a christian girl here, and a very big fight happenned after it between muslims and christians, and let me tell you, israeli jeeps and soldiers were one kilometer away just in case us christians needed any help, because they know the hell we are living in. So next time you say israel is wrong, think again, Israel is just a country trying to defend it's children from ugly bastards that threaten to kill them.  



1 Feb 2006 @ 23:59 by shaman sayari @212.138.47.24 : I am prepared to discuss an anybody.
The Islam and the prophet Mohammad brought the beauties of the moralities and the best. We had been cautious of Mohammad he interdicted the abuse of the other and if she was not ethereal and if she was invalide. Did he become definite why? So that they don't revile the God and the Islam.

I believe in a judaism and the christianity. As that I believe hinder Isa Christ build Myriam the virgin mary is Prophet.

You had annoyed me very very when I looked at this horn from the sarcasm by prophet from prophets of the God. If he is not capable of his latent spite hiding on Islam then in the less circumstances he honors the god.
This portraits had brought forth a far too much reaction at the Moslems throughout the world. There a More than intimate of a conceded million change the world. Is she/you believing in they will remind how well they are received by this offense?

I fear to be separated from them the extremists they fear you because of your extremism. I are not been honored but become necessary to be educated put off for each deed of an adverse reaction.

I look at the solver of an America I/she/you went to extremes and was self-important on states of the deliverers Israel contributed to her obscurities and its aggression and the killing of the Palestines.

She/you takes the nuclear weapon away from Iran she/you guides him to Israel! Alice this extremism? He was for her deed this I/you walked about a deed then I/she/you roved in her house's barrenness. A now eked out a living New York in fright doesn't know him previously.

I return and I return that not I break. If I/you was I break that I/she/you began my talk tactfully and a nice style indeed a sir and apostolic Mohammad commissions me with that as what I/you pointed out previously.

The sarcasm by the prophets never she/you is greater than the world except a misery and an unhappiness and a struggle. Then who Prophet insulted Mohammad then as if leave the god. The invitation of the expression freedom doesn't permit the abuse of the messengers the vineyardist.

By amicable O sir that fulfill? Why? the Islam always resists this runner westerly?
Why? don't discuss a matter of the Nazi crematory for the Jews? And that the freedom of the expression stops that!!. As soon as her debater and trying her realities's uncovering considers from forbidden in the west!!. He resists who argues with her to pursuit of the judgement the returns Semite!!. Where did they call you in freedom of the expression? This matter an abuse is not in her for the messengers and the religions but he told my history a teller he needs a search and a study.

I appeal to you to look for the shelves Mohammad from the original resorts.

He granted how a delay to the Islam he is deployed through the west without a bullet to free an one. This guideline however the Islam is the debt of moralities , the noble deed , a truth , an abstinence and an impartiality.

I search I read and conclude that by its breath. I look at the world around you well and not she/you lies to the same of your.

I terminate my letter with a phrase ( you take a brain in possession she/you distinguishes between the right by him and the error ).

It makes me happy to receive your reply shortly.  



2 Feb 2006 @ 00:06 by some one can accept others @213.178.255.6 : What's wrong
Free mind force every one to respet others sacred ideas ...
When you insult the others sacred ideas ...that's not a free mind
that's chaos

Burning Denmark flag is an act of anger not intend to insult chrisitianity
When you burn Saudi Arabia flag you are burning the flag of that country ...
not the flag of Islam

We must respect each other weather we were Muslim or Chrisitian or jewish ...since we all pray for the same god...

and who insult Islam is not christian or jewish
Becuase who insult Islam is the able to insult jewish ...

we thought that we get rid of that stupid ideas againest jewish but now Islam...
What's wrong with you Europe...can't you accept another relegion ...learn from America..

May the god be with you all...
Viva for All Jewish Christian and Muslim ...  



2 Feb 2006 @ 00:44 by ming : Communication
It obviously is hard to communicate, when one speaks different languages, when one looks at the world in very different ways, and when one feels justified in regarding the people who see it differently as pigs or terrorists, or whatever.

Let me point out that we're all human. And despite differences on how we think, there is no general group of people that are all bad, evil, wrong, or whichever words you apply to it. They're all made of the same stuff as you are.

As to whether Europe can accept another religion - Europe generally isn't very religious. Most European countries pride themselves of being distanced from religion, ruled by reason and democracy. You don't find government leaders who invoke God to back up their authority like in the U.S. On the contrary, you'll find most European countries to be very resistant to any attempt from religion to dictate what people should do. Because, again, they're democracies.

To invoke the word of God can be an effective way of manipulating masses of people into obeying you without argument. You set yourself up as God's chosen person or people or class of people, and then you interpret what God's saying, and you tell everybody else what to do, pretending that it is God doing it. It is the oldest crowd control trick in the book. It is a phoney, cowardly thing to do, but it works. Priests and popes and inquisitors and writers and rewriters and interpretors of holy books have done it for millennia.

I'd say God can speak for him/her/it-self, and is. Anybody can listen. Anybody can speak for it. Nothing that needs to be protected, other than weak human ideas that don't stand the light of day.  



2 Feb 2006 @ 00:56 by vibrani : ahhahaha
oh that's funny, Ming.  


2 Feb 2006 @ 01:20 by bushman : Agree
I dont need some religion, telling me whats right and wrong, I can hear the Creator just fine. Intresting comments. :}  


2 Feb 2006 @ 07:31 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : Some thoughts on the subject

Kim:
I don't take things out of context. 79% felt that the government shouldn't apologize. 62% (which is still a large majority) felt that even the newspaper shouldn't apologize. We are not asking 5 million people to apologize; we are asking the government to intervene to prevent such offenses just like they would have done if the Holocaust was mentioned. An apology of the newspaper is enough for me.

I also would like to apologize for burning the Danish Flag. It is not a Muslim trait to return an offense with an offense. Those who are reacting out of anger would have done us a lot more good had they limited their reaction to peaceful protest and boycott.

Kieth Manheck:
I would rather keep my backward thinking religion than adopt your humanity saving, 21st Century, progressive thoughts of Genocide and extermination. BTW, the Nazi Party of Germany has the top spot vacant since 1945. If I were u, I would throw my resume. Only you would make your predecessor look pale and less ambitious.

Islamisdying:
Even though this is not the subject of this forum, I have to say that if you are truly a Palestinian living in Ramallah and not an Israeli posing as a Palestinian Christian, then you are alone in your own society. I have tens of Palestinian Christian friends. They all despise the Israeli occupation as much as I do. Read the news. Time and time again, Palestinian Christian leaders like Hanan Ashrawi, Azmi Beshara, the Late Edward Saeed, Clovis Maqsood has repeatedly condemned the Israeli occupation and praised the excellent relations between Christians and Muslims in the Holly Land. The people who steel the land are the Israeli settler thugs who have stolen the lands of thousands of Palestinian -Christian and Muslim- citizens. As per the Israeli government laws, those settlers are allocated 10 times the water of the land than the Palestinians. They enjoy their personal swimming pools while the Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) have to rationalize drinking water. The Israeli solution to this problem was to uproot Palestinian Olive trees so they would not need as much water.

Ming:
I want to thank you for trying to keep this forum to its original subject. I also appreciate your responsible unbiased thoughts.

Everyone on this earth adopt a set of values. Some choose pre-packaged ones like Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists,.. while others feel the need to choose freely. The important thing here is to respect everyone's right to choose his own set of beliefs and not to demonize, insult, or pre-judge a person for selecting one set of beliefs over another. I respect Europe's right to be or not be religious. I would defend your freedom to choose your beliefs as I am sure you would defend mine.  



2 Feb 2006 @ 08:51 by Infinitynexus @82.192.160.50 : This is going straight to oblivion
I stand and simply wait for the day where the last of humanity dies.. and I will smile.. And die happily knowing that its the end and there wont be any more of our idiocy  


2 Feb 2006 @ 09:23 by dane @83.91.18.2 : drawings
as a dane i think the past years discussions about muslims in dk have been very bad espcially from the right-wing parties, that´s probably why some muslims in dk felt they needed back-up for their views elsewhere. and they got what they wanted and even more so.... now they seem like they regret it, as the pm probably regrets not taking a more serious stand in this case earlier. Anyway i think it is scary that thousands of people in the middleeast look like they want to start a war because of 12 drawings. and i think that we can not give any more excuses than we did - muslims should´t expect non-muslims to follow muslims laws; 1,5 years ago a teacher at the university of cph was beaten up very badly because he read from the koran without being muslim, this is a misunderstanding of freedom. Noone should control my mind, i can say and mean what i want, unless i harm other people, and it is up to the independent legal system to judge weather i have done so. I think the pm in dk is an asshole, but i´m glad i live in a country where i can say that...  


2 Feb 2006 @ 09:54 by Ahmed Fakhroo @82.194.62.23 : Quran Teachings
To He or/ She: anyone @83.253.16.163 : most people think

Our Quran explicitly forbids us from reviling other religions or/ their gods as stated in the Al-An’am Sura or/ chapter, copied below for ease of refernce :

Al-An'am (The Cattle) [6:108]

"Wala tasubboo allatheena yadAAoona min dooni Allahi fayasubboo Allaha AAadwan bighayri AAilmin kathalika zayyanna likulli ommatin AAamalahum thumma ila rabbihim marjiAAuhum fayunabbiohum bima kanoo yaAAmaloona".

Translation is as follows:
6:108 Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.

I just wonder whether the Danish Law allows their press either to demean the royal families of Europe or/ tribute the Hitler regime Nazi. I will be very much interested to be enlightened on the so called Europe “freedom of speech’. It is a phony baloney episode.  



2 Feb 2006 @ 10:53 by Daniel @192.171.3.126 : The originals???
Where the fuck can I find the original caricarures ??? I want to laugh, too !!!  


2 Feb 2006 @ 11:06 by Daniel @192.171.3.126 : Question
"BTW, the Nazi Party of Germany has the top spot vacant since 1945. "(quoted)
Sorry I'm from Germany and I don't know what BTW is or means ??? Can you help, Mohammad Kanaan ??? What do you know about NAZI parties in Germany ?? Still the picture around the world GERMAN = NAZI. Let's draw some caricatures about this topic! We promise not to be insulted and have a good laugh...  



2 Feb 2006 @ 11:10 by trj @212.149.219.73 : reality check
European royal families get made fun off by the press on a daily basis. Obvioulsy the european freedom of expression is not perfect (nothing in the world ever is) but it is pretty close to it.

As europeans we should also realize that muslims have or at least should have the freedom to express themselves just the same as we do. To burn a flag or boycott products. However violance and bomb threats is taking it too far.

It's absolutely absurd to expect everyone in the world to avoid talking about subjects that might be considered too sensitive by someone.  



2 Feb 2006 @ 12:21 by dane @83.91.18.2 : drawings
we have nazis in dk - they run for the elections, but they don´t really get many votes. we believe it is better to let their stupid arguments be met in the open room, instead of pushing them out into "illegal" subcultures. We also have hitz-ub-tahrir, which is forbidden in many muslim and non-muslim countries, and i think many kurds are happy that we allow their critic radiostation, although both turkey and the us want us to forbid it, what is the pm´s reaction to that? the same as to the drawings - "i can´t do anything", same when the russians wanted us to close down a conference for Chechnya. The queen, pm and others are often made fun of. The freedom of speach is not unlimited, and the interpretation of it in the west is sometimes marked by doublestandarts. But it is also under pressure many places around the world, and if these drawings should be forbidden what is the next - the ones who made them should be punished? how?

By the way if muslims care so much not harming other peoples religious feelings, then where was the outrage in the muslim world when taliban blew up 50 tall, ancient buddhastatues in afghanistan?  



2 Feb 2006 @ 14:59 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : Quran bullshit
Ahmed Fakhroo, Wtf are you saying? Non-muslims don't have to follow your bullshit rules....and there is nothing you can do about it, islam is pure bullshit, a religion based on sex and killing, how the fuck do you call this a religion??  


2 Feb 2006 @ 18:16 by Pontus Sweden @83.249.58.199 : Freedom
THIS ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop crying out about all bad that happens to pooor muslims. Still the truth is that most bad to muslims is done by muslims.

THIS ISSUE IS ABOUT AT CARTOON IN A NEWSPAPER. LIKE IT OR DONT READ IT. DONT START A WAR.  



2 Feb 2006 @ 18:32 by vibrani : Here's today's news on this
GAZA CITY — Armed militants angered by a cartoon drawing of the Prophet Muhammad published in European newspapers surrounded EU offices in Gaza on Thursday and threatened to kidnap foreigners as outrage over the caricatures spread across the Islamic world.

More than 300 students demonstrated in Pakistan, chanting "Death to France!" and "Death to Denmark!" — two of the countries where newspapers published the drawings. Other protests were held in Syria and Lebanon, while officials in Afghanistan, Iran and Indonesia condemned the publication. In Paris, the daily France Soir fired its managing editor after it ran the caricatures Wednesday.

A Jordanian newspaper took the bold step of running some of the drawings, saying it wanted to show its readers how offensive the cartoons were, although its editor also said he did not want "to promote such blasphemy." In an editorial, it also urged the world's Muslims to "be reasonable."  



2 Feb 2006 @ 18:33 by vibrani : Daniel
btw stands for "by the way." Sort of like a propos.  


2 Feb 2006 @ 19:49 by Ed Knight @67.83.218.158 : 4,000 year old problems
Oooh. Ow. I've got a 2,000 year old prolem. My God makes ME wear an extremely silly hat and gets offended at the the insinuation that someone elses idea of a silly hat is so insulting or hilarious. Ooh that hat gets me so MAD!.And don't even get me started on the subject of sacred sand. That gets me angry as well. Does God truly give a rip about anybody's hat, sand,or diet? Enough allready. Go to bed, children, and apologize to your brothers for arguing about hats and sand. Christ sakes.  


2 Feb 2006 @ 20:09 by Andrius Kulikauskas @193.219.5.34 : Comparing apples with apples
Flemming, Good to hear you speak and see all the comments you've evoked! And I'm especially glad to hear from Mohammad Kanaan. I follow Christ, but I think that we in Europe should do a better job of trying to understand others' point of view. To us Mohammed is perhaps simply a man and so it's simply a caricature. But to Muslims he is a Prophet of God and he is not depicted at all. So a proper comparison might be to a caricature of Christ on the cross, perhaps with a missile peeking out from under his loin cloth. European newspapers tend not to carry such caricatures because, I think even Denmark, such a means of expression is considered off limits, not helpful, not relevant. Every culture has such sensitive areas and its easy to miss our own. I think that is a big part of the hurt for intelligent Muslims - why do Danes (arguably the most exemplary culture in the West) take their own soft spots for granted, but don't afford that same sensitivity to Muslims. I imagine it is the Muslims who want to be understood as part of Western society who feel the most betrayed. Because Western society is not big enough to be sensitive to their soft spots, nor to admit its own. And this goes on and on and on. Movements and regions (like Iran or Hamas) are condemned as terrorists without any interest in their democratic sides, whereas autocratic regimes (as in Pakistan or Egypt) are considered important allies, even when, as in the case of Pakistan, their autocracy lead to the spread of more weapons of mass production than Saddam Hussein might ever dream of. Or the World Trade Center towers are not considered as legimitate targets even when clearly they were important centers of power in the West, whereas the people who die because they happened to be hit by a cruise missile intended for terrorists shouldn't have been where they were. I think the battle of mindsets has to do with whether Islam or the West is big enough to include both or whether it is creating a rift. And the West is losing the most important people - the independent thinking Muslims - who are the key to overcoming that rift. The West ought to be sensitive to their sensitivities - as it is to its own, yet doesn't admit it. Mohammad, I invite you to join one or more of our working groups at our Minciu Sodas laboratory [link] for independent thinkers, we are trying to reach out to Islamic independent thinkers. Peace.  


2 Feb 2006 @ 21:26 by ming : Dialogue
Thank you for that, Andrius. Yes, what it takes is sensitive dialogue. And, yes, it should be important particularly to have a dialogue with Islamic independent thinkers.

It is a difficult thing to work out how to be sensitive to each other's sensitive spots.

What I personally think is useful is to go a bit deeper, to recognize what principle might be under the various beliefs or rules we live by. Like a rule against idolatry in some religion. One should be able to look slightly deeper and grasp what the point of it is. Which, I would guess, would be that one shouldn't worship the picture of something or someone, but rather deal with the real thing. Like, maybe, that Mohammed didn't want his picture to be worshipped. So, the offense would be to worship his picture and forget Allah, I suppose. Not that there's really any inherent huge problem in pictures.

But I can't write the dialogue for everybody, of course. The point is to explore together how one might communicate with mutual respect, despite any kind of negative baggage that gets in the way.  



2 Feb 2006 @ 21:54 by france-in-it-too-now @86.195.125.69 : Your laws are not our laws
Some basic points:
- depicting the prophet, and other such prohibitions apply to Muslims. In the name of what should it apply to non-muslims? If buddhist respect cows, should we all refrain from eating beef?
- France has been very supportive of muslims, especially palestinians. The reactions I have witnessed in Cisjordania against Christian democraties are shocking. Palestine is very isolated now that it has elected Hamas. Treating its very few last "allies" or at least defenders like shit is so naive, it is touching.
- We opposed war in Iraq for reasons that can be debated . Mostly it was considered that you don't bring freedom through war. We opposed countries like Danemark on that occasion. Today, my free mind makes me support fully Danemark. We must be able to use caricature and satire in any case, and not comply to rules that do not apply to us.
- All freeman not enslaved into mad thinking has a duty to refuse to apologize for using his right of speech, expression, press, etc.
Here is the link to the drawings: please circulate
[link]  



2 Feb 2006 @ 21:58 by france-in-it-too @86.195.125.69 : or is it hinduists?
You will have corrected if wrong, lol  


2 Feb 2006 @ 22:21 by AnIranianWoman @164.57.112.10 : Thank You Andrius
It is nice to hear reasonable arguments from reasonable people no matter what their religious inclinations are. Thank you for trying to look at both sides of the issue. I am originally from Iran although I have not lived there for the past 21 years. I along with most Iranians would welcome establishment of democracy in Iran, although we would like it to be of the home-grown kind without any (and I mean any) involvement of other countries and powers. In our collective memory each time a foreign power sat foot in Iran with, it resulted in utter disaster for the general Iranian population and Iran’s sovereignty was diminished. (Removal of the democratic Mossadegh’s government by the aid of the CIA’s coup in 1953) Most Iranians would like to have nuclear technology for peaceful purposes as the oil will run out in 20 or so years. If this aim (Nuclear power plant) is illegal, please somebody make it illegal in the United Nations charter so that Iran would stop that activity. Back to the issue of running cartoons of the Messenger, although I find it offensive, it makes me sad instead of angry. First of all, I don't get angry because I believe that what a person does will return to them. For example, if I choose profanity to hurt anyone at all, not to mention anyone's sacred people or belief, I have hurt my own soul more than causing pain to the intended target. God, in my opinion, is simply beyond being hurt by comments or actions of people. What gets hurt is the soul of the individual aiming to hurt God. By the same token, if one believes in the exalted position of a person such as the Messenger, then there is no amount of insult that can hurt the Messenger. So I am not angry. Instead, I am sad that people choose to use languages other than respectful towards those whom they do not understand or don't care to understand just because they seem to be too different from them. In my opinion it simply hurts them more. It doesn’t matter if a Moslem or a non-Moslem is using such tactics. Insult, no matter who is issuer is wrong. Also, Insult is not something defined by the issuer of the insult. If I said that, “calling me by a particular name is an insult to me, please don’t use that reference to call me”, I would expect a reasonable person would abide by it. No matter what my reasons are, I should be allowed a simple courtesy that is requested. I may be crazy to think that the particular name is an insult to me, but I do and I have made my condition known in advance. If that courtesy is not granted to me, I have the right to cut relations with the issuer of the insult as my request was not met in kind. You may say that you have the right to insult me. To which, my response would be that you are simply acting rude and beyond the norm of a civilized person. Similarly, this is an issue with a general sensitivity of a religion. It has been known, that depiction of the Messenger is insulting to Moslems. Now, what would be the reason to invoke such an insult other than to be rude? This is not an issue of freedom of speech. This is an issue of lack of consideration.  


2 Feb 2006 @ 22:29 by Isac @82.214.0.220 : W/e
I will probably never even check this thread again.


Who really wants to support fundamentalists freedom of speech? Will the idiots who's offended bomb denmark? Doesn't that prove they were right?  



3 Feb 2006 @ 04:57 by Alex @65.93.156.23 : liberty of expression
fuck Mohamed... I have the right to say what I want and I assume.

F-U-C-K M-O-H-A-M-E-D

Why going against free speech? nobody will touch my right. I will fight for it!  



3 Feb 2006 @ 07:36 by BLACKBOY @155.232.250.35 : let he who is without sin cast the first
Let this GO already.
A Muslim surrenders/submits to the will of Allah, not a Dane. The Danish have the right to offend whoever the Danish want without their government apologising.
I did not hear the muslim world apologising for 9/11 or the london bombings or the bombings in innocent Kenya.
I do not hear the muslim world apologising for the continued enslavement of black people in SUDAN.
boycottt the DAnish products as muslims but no one dies from your "prophet" being drawn so please dont go around assualting people.

To the Danish people bring all you products to South Africa, We are for freedom of speech.

if I had a cent for everytime the people of muhamed spoke against and offended christianity bill gates would have nothing on me
Maybe its because in states that have a majority of christians, Freedom of speech is Standard... makes you think dont it?  



3 Feb 2006 @ 08:17 by A Norwegian @80.111.172.228 : Double standard
Mohammad Kanaan and others have said there is a double standard in the west with regards to freedom of speech. First let me say that freedom of speech does not mean that you have to express all sorts of views. If you are a newspaper editor you don't have to print articles claiming that the holocaust is a lie if you don't want to. The same goes for cartoons of Prophet Mohammed, you are not obligated to print them. All but a few European newspapers have not.

Ridiculing Christ and the Christian God is a frequent occurrence in our newspapers, tv shows and movies (Monty Python should be a well known example). The prophet Mohammed has been spared until now.

Our media discuss controversial issues including neo nazis, blasphemy, racism, holocaust denunciation (Yes its true!) David Irwing has been on several tv shows and written about in numerous articles. Although Irwing has few supporters he has been allowed to make his argument, but it has not been made uncontested. To tell the truth our media treat Islam with more respect than they do Christianity.

Let me also point out that Israeli groups and government frequently criticize our media for the way they report about the Palestinian conflict. I have registered several claims of anti-semitism and no apologies.

Today the editor of Jylland posten writes that he would not have printed the cartoons had he known the outcome, and that they did not mean to offend Muslims. The Danish PM has also denounced the cartoons on the Al Arabia channel.

It is your right to boycott Danish products, but it seems like misplaced anger.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 09:14 by DRC @72.196.1.159 : Where the fuck are these cartoons?
I can't find these cartoons! This is stupid to think that someone gets offended by a cartoon. I am a christian, I used to be a catholic, and I don't find catholic cartoons offensive. Maybe someone should publish a cartoon of mohamed fucking buddha? That could be funny. After 9/11 I think toilet paper printed with the verses of the Koran could be a top seller. I would definitely buy it.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 10:31 by Faidros @217.208.25.51 : Boycott
As a nonreligous westerner I belive boycott to be a civiliced and valid way to apply political pressure. I do it all the time my self. For several years I didnt buy French wines becourse the French tested neuclear arms in the passific. I dont buy Israeli goods for several reasons I dont want to go in to here out of respect of the subject of this thread and I didnt buy South African goods before Mandela.

So if muslimes dont like what the danish do they are in their full right to show that by refusing to buy thier stuff. For what ever reason - fair or not!

What is worying in the crisis following the tracks of the Mohammed pictures is the semingly bottomless stupidity we see from the extreme corners of the ideological map.

One newspaper publishes some pictures and suddenly all scandinavians are valid targes for anyone that wants a free ticket to the muslim heaven.

Just as when handfull of extremists flew planes in to buildings hole countries and regions where held responsible.

The idea seems to be - if you dont know where to find the responsible for an act - kill everyone that wheres similar a head dress, prays to the same god or lives in the same region or country.

I wish those pictures never would have been published. Not that I question the newspapers right to do so. My consern is that this development will further strengthen those extremists. Both the muslim extremeists and extreme rightwing and rasist organisations.

The muslim organisations will gather followers by pointing out that the west dont respect any muslimes and the skinheads and their likes will point out that muslimes is behaving just as brute and uncivilised as they always claimed they are. And that development is just to sad for all us that hope for a peacefull coexistens of all humanity.

I cant help wondering how this thing has developed. I dont think "Jyllands-posten" has to many readers on the Gaza strip or in Saudi Arabia. Obviusly someone brought the muslim world to the attention of the pictures.

My questions to those are:
-Are you acheving your goals?
-Is the name of the Mohammed held in higher respect around the world after this?
-Have your actions resulted in fewer respectless cartoons with the Mohammed?
-Do you feel that the muslim community is more widely accepted and respected in Denmark after this?

 



3 Feb 2006 @ 11:04 by J.Smith @80.100.168.252 : Go Denmark !!
Denmark should not apologised ! C'mon it's a cartoon ... I saw it it made sense, why should the Arab countries boycott all Danish products due to just a cartoon ? That's just STUPID ! Did all danish people draw these cartoons ? Or just an individual ? I think all press should publish more of these cartoons to support freedom of speech. The Arab countries are just finding excuses for attention. They are just dying to create a Jihad war no matter what is being said !!! Next time they'll burn other flags just because EU countries mention "Islam" .  


3 Feb 2006 @ 11:51 by Alex @80.178.128.210 : SINCE WHEN SOME DIRTY ARABS
Will tell us what to draw?

F*ck them!
Their responce with riots just underlined that these pics are correct!
Arabs are untolerant of others, but very offended when it comes to them.
We must FIND some OTHER source OF ENERGY

OTHER than OIL.

ARABS WERE NOTHING TILL WE STARTED DWELLING OIL IN THEIR PLACES.

SO WE MUST FIND OTHER SOURCE OF ENERGY

AND LET THEM eat THEIR own OIL - WE wount buy IT.
 



3 Feb 2006 @ 13:20 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.232 : To Alex
Dude plz dont talk about ALL arabs, there at least 30 million arabs that are christian, that believe in the same things that you do, and aren't retarted like muslims.
I can see some of are ignoring my earlier comments, i dunno why.....it basicly stated the truth, islam is the shit of humanity, PERIOD.
Btw mohamed kanaan, fatima, fahad, haven't heard from you in a while, please, share with us ur bullshit rules  



3 Feb 2006 @ 13:51 by A PROUD DANE @80.164.65.4 : Insane
hey i´m a Dane and proud of it. this is madness we got the right here to think and say what we want, ok muslims got offended by the drawing to bad for them, some Christians probaly get offended when they make a similar drawing of Jesus too.
I got muslim friends in Denmark to they dun like the drawings that is there right i respect that. Those drawings isn´t the way Danes see muslims but hearing Danis in the middle east have been subjects of violence, and Denmark getting treaths about bombings, CAURSE OF SOME DRAWINGS, really make one think  



3 Feb 2006 @ 14:11 by Faidros @217.208.25.51 : Dear IslamDying
Maybe the lack of respons on your "pig-statement" is to do the fact that it was not worth commenting.

I just want to tell you this. In the eyes of most of the people in Europe that dislikes muslims the fact that you call your self a christian does not make much of a difference.

As most people with extreme ideas, such as your self, european muslimhaters tends to simplify and generalise. If you ask them most will say a muslim is an arab. And since all arabs are terrorists they are all the "shit of humanity" as you put it.

I live in Sweden. The word the rasists use here is "svartskalle" (ie. "blackhead"). If you came here the people reasoning like you do about muslims would also treat you as a "blackhead". You being a christian would not mather at all. Do you think that anyone managed to escape the gas just becourse they shouted "I belive in Jesus!"?

So remember that by spreading all your intollerant bullsh*t you are pouring gasoline on a fire that are also meant for you.

Ive seen people like you before and to me you are both funny and tragical. But few things surprices me any more. Hell, here in Sweden one of the best known criminals is a black guy that claims he is a nazi. :P  



3 Feb 2006 @ 14:57 by HUSSEIN @62.135.34.159 : THANKS
THANK U ALL FOR SAYING ALL THIS BAD WORDS ABOUT MUSLIMS & ABOUT PROPHET MOHAMED AND THANK U ALEX FOR GIVING US AN EXAMPLE ABOUT WHO IS REALLY FULL OF HATE TO THE OTHERS .. FIRST WE DIDN'T DO ANY BAD THING TO ANYONE AND ABOUT 9/11
I WANT SOMEONE GIVE ME AN MATERIAL PROVE THAT MUSLIMS WAS BEHIND IT, ABOUT WHO BRINGS THE WAR TO THIS WORLD CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHO IS KILLING OTHER PEOPLE NOW LET ME THINK ..OOH WHAT DOES ALL THIS AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN TROOPS DOING IN IRAQ AREN'T THEY KILLING PEOPLE THEY KILLED IN THIS FEW YEARS MORE THAN SADDAM KILLED , WHO KILLING PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN ,AND IN PALESTINE ANSWER THOSE QUESTION AND U ALL WILL KNOW WHO IS REALLY DESTROYING THIS PLANET MR BUSH AND TONEY PLAIR LIED TO THE WHOLE WORLD ABOUT IRAQ AND HOW U DEALED WITH IT U REELECTION BOTH OF THEM. I WILL TELL U SOMTHING U DN'T KNOW MUSLIMS ARE VERY AFRAID TO DO ANYTHING BAD TO CHRISTIANS OR JEWS BECAUSE THE PROPHET U ARE TEELING LIES ABOUT HIM TELL US THAT IF MUSLIM DID ANY THING BAD TO ANY OF U HE WILL ANGERY FROM HIM UNTIL THE JUDGEMENT DAY AND AS WE BELIEVE IN OUR ISLAM OUR PROPHET HAS THE KEY OF PARADISE SO CAN U SEE HOW IT'S VERY RISKY TO HURT ANYONE OF U, DID U EVER HEARD A MUSLIM SAID AND BAD THINGS ABOUT THE CHRIST OR LADY MIRIAM OR MOSIES NO U DOESN'T BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN THEM ALSO AND THE LADY MIRIAM IS THE BEST LADY IN HEAVEN WE BELIEVE IN THAT, ABOUT WHATS HAPPENING IN PALASTINE CAN U ANSWER ME ALEX WHAT WILL U DO IF SOMEONE COME TO UR HOUSE KILLED UR SONS AND RAPED UR DAUGHTERS AND UR WIFE AND PUT U IN THE GARAGE PREVENTING U FROM UR LIFE AND AFTER ALL OF THAT U ALEX ASKING HIM FOR PEACE AND THE STRANGE THING THAT HE REFUSED NOW IF U TRY TO KILL HIM AFTER ALL THAT WILL U BE A TERRORIST ?? I WANT ALL OF U TO ANSWER ME ?? FINALLY WE REALLY LOVE U AND WE REALLY WANT PEACE TO THE WHOLE WORLD WHICH I HOPE AND BELIEVE IT WILL COME SOME DAY, BY THE WAY I'M MUSLIM AND I LOVE U ALL AND I'LL NEVER HATE U AND I WILL NOT HATE WHAT EVER U DO, THAT I WANT IN THE JUDGEMENT DAY WHEN WE ALL MEET THE CHRIST AND LADY MARIAM AND MOSSES (PEACE BE ON THEM ALL) I DN'T WANT TO FEEL SHY THAT I HATE ANYONE OF THEY FOLLOWERS. PEACE BE ON MOHAMED AND ALL THE MESSNGERS AND PROPHETS... THANKS FOR ALL OF U AGAINE.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 15:07 by rich_s @195.160.253.3 : My take
The original context of these cartoons is that artists are frightened of criticising Islam because of the potential actions of violent extremists. The reaction to the publication of the cartoons just proves the original point - that fundamentalists are intolerent and hold world-views that are incompatible with Western ideas such as free speech.

The cartoons may well offend, because they are blasphemous by Islamic standards. The subject matter of some of them is an attack on the religion and its ideas. That's offensive? Well, tough, because in Europe religion is fair game. We've had the enlightenment, and separated church and state, and now most of us believe in "science" - if your theory doesn't stand up to rational scrutiny then down it falls.

Religious schools of thought seem to think that they should be protected from this scrutiny, and that people are allowed to believe what they like, no matter what irrational nonsense it is. For the sake of peaceful living, a compromise is neccessary, so Western countries have laws allowing "freedom to practise religion" - laws of tolerance. I'm fine and happy with that as long as you don't wave your nonsense in my face. That's not keeping your end of the bargain.

Don't make me choose between liberties and your make-belief deity. Muslims who haven't already need to learn to take silly cartoons and such like on the chin, like most Christians have learnt, otherwise there cannot be harmony. For example, don't insist that non-muslims must follow Islamic law and never depict Muhammed, because in reality all you are doing is forcing us to stand up and say "Look, we think your beliefs are bullsh*t"  



3 Feb 2006 @ 15:38 by vibrani : Boycotting is good
so let's boycot all products coming from Muslim nations until the Muslims get a sense of humor, lighten up, and stop trying to force the rest of the world to their belief system. Respect works both ways.

Seriously, I don't think papers need to publish everything just because it's a free press. Some things are offensive and some things are outright lies. It takes a smart publisher to know where to draw the line. The violent Muslim response, however, might give people another reason to consider those offensive cartoons to be factual.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 15:45 by ming : Outcomes
Faidros, wise words:

>I cant help wondering how this thing has developed. I dont think
>"Jyllands-posten" has to many readers on the Gaza strip or in Saudi Arabia.
>Obviusly someone brought the muslim world to the attention of the pictures.
>
>My questions to those are:
>-Are you acheving your goals?
>-Is the name of the Mohammed held in higher respect around the world after this?
>-Have your actions resulted in fewer respectless cartoons with the Mohammed?
>-Do you feel that the muslim community is more widely accepted and respected in Denmark after this?

Obviously anything but has happened. More people have a reason to be angry at Islam and at Muslims. Fewer people will respect Islam. It will be harder for moderate Muslims to be taken seriously. Many people have now become inspired to actually make disrespectful pictures of Mohammed. You'll see lots more pictures of Mohammed around now. All not because of those few cartoons in Jyllandsposten, but because of the reaction. So, yes, was that worth it?  



3 Feb 2006 @ 16:22 by Jesper @86.52.46.251 : The price for Democracy!
I'm so fu..ing tired of rabiate muslims!

99.9% of all the idiots that are rioting in the M.East haven't even seen the damned cartoons, and in wich context they were publiched in the first place. Yet they don't hessitate to boycot an entire country, burning flags and issue death warrenth over all danes a cross the world.
These people are asking for our respect! Well in my mind, respect goes both ways. And if all export to muslim-countries is the price for free speech and democracy, that's just the price we have to pay. Because it will be over my dead body before these rabiate mulslims will take control over my life.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 16:32 by Democratic Patriot @86.52.46.251 : SUPPORT DENMARK
COME ON EVERYBODY. DON'T LET THE MUSLIMS WIN THIS BATTLE.

- BUY DANISH!!!  



3 Feb 2006 @ 16:45 by keith @62.253.128.12 : cartoons
i was just watching sky news and the muslim demonstrators and noticed thier banners well most of them depict that europe was the scurge of the earth and our time will come when we are eliminated. Q for you if you dont like it here then i suggest you go back to were you origionate from and let us get on with our christian beliefs we dont ram it down your throats,we have no wish to follow what you belive in i say TAKE IT BACK HOME TO YOUR OWN COUNTRYS.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 16:46 by keith @62.253.128.12 : cartoons
oh sorry forgot to add buy more bacon  


3 Feb 2006 @ 16:59 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.231 : TO FAIDROS
Look son, you know NOTHING about what muslims really are, I live with 100,000 muslims in my city, it's like living in hell, those "things" are simply animals with a religion, there as ugly as humans can get.

Btw i lived in the U.S for 2 years, when people knew i was a christian coming from the holy land they litterlay warshipped me, they loved me. So next time don't say that noone gives a shit if i'm christian or muslim, sure i'm arab but i'm christian....your the ONly one that doesn't think there is a difference. Let's prove this, can u guys tell me if a christian arab attacked by muslim pricks every day is the same as those arab muslim dicks?  



3 Feb 2006 @ 17:17 by Alf @81.131.106.219 : STONE AGES
Speaking as a British Christian I really cant understand all the fuss,I just see a lot of easily excited,easily led,none to clever,behind the times,non progressive,frustrated,hell raisers.What is this world coming to if you cant take the piss out of a fictional character..Bless em  


3 Feb 2006 @ 17:29 by Kafir @62.45.4.168 : Religion
All religion is, in fact a bad thing. Religion is made by people. Some religions were originally not intended as one; eg. Buddhism and Christianity. The problem with Islam however, is that it was always intended as a cruel religion, claiming in its own Holy Book that it's the one true religion, promoting intolerance and even violence. Thankfully, many muslims will say that what I just said is untrue. Luckily for all of us, they either haven't read their book, or they interpret it differently.

The way I see it, it's just a matter of time however, before the majority will have read those nice passages in the book, God only knows what we will do then!

To conclude: BAN RELIGION.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 17:37 by Blueblood @70.184.92.11 : Screw Em
They are all a bunch of gun toting power hungry not to mention very smelly and unkempt followers of a physcotic religion that lost it's roots years ago. If your going to blow people up for their beliefs then you shouldnt get so mad over a cartoon depicting your monkey like mohammed.I have an idea instead of having your female virgins committing suicide bombings send them here to the U.S. we need a little variety in our Strip clubs. I support you Denmark and I am sure many Americans laughed their asses off when they heard how the muslims reacted to a simple drawing.Hate to see what would happen if Disney put out a cartoon about them HAHA. NO APOLOGIES NEEDED do they apologize when they kill people in the name of religion (which by the way is the sign that these people are still living in the time of witch hunts)Anyhow give'em hell they deserve it. G.B.M.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 17:44 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : rofl
Rofl BlueBlood just owned u muslims pricks, love too know what you have to say now  


3 Feb 2006 @ 17:50 by yehuda @80.255.47.251 : liars!
your grandfathers came to our countries robbed us of our dignity and resources to build your civilized countries and now you donot want us "animals" to come to those countries.we will continue to come and when we do we spread our religion Islam.you can call us terrorists but we learned from the best your grand fathers the colonialists,the missionaries.and yet in iraq,afghanistan,palestine,and in a few months iran.you continue to do the same.and yet you dare to call us terrorists?you talk of 9/11 yet you donot know who really did that because you jewish media lies to you!freedom of speech you say....try insulting the jews even in democratic denmark and see what appens?you're all liars and you hate us because we are powerful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  


3 Feb 2006 @ 17:55 by marek @80.255.47.251 : killings
Blue blood!does the us apologise for killing in the name of freedom?or is george bush killing those muslims in iraq for the sake of oil?or is it for the sake of christianity in disguise?so u expect muslims to sit and wait for their deaths while the us and his patheitc allies finish them off?its funny coz i thought that islam would really be over and done with by now but actually the opposite is happening...i wonder y?maybe muslims are doing mass brainwashing?lol!  


3 Feb 2006 @ 17:55 by Blueblood @70.184.92.11 : Insane
You must be brainwashed to think that the muslims could ever take over. Oh wait that's right if you dont act like a muslim they will cut your head off sorry yehuda now I understand why you muslims are so strong in your belief I wouldnt want to lose my head either. By the way Im still waiting for an answer about you muslims sending us your virgins.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 17:58 by Amir K. @202.156.6.68 : IN-BORN HATRED
All these reactions from Western Press is not about Freedom of speech, it is about some fundamental, their in-born hatredness for Islam, Muslims or Arabs, which could be partly due to the past history or their ignorance.
Actually, they are instigating the muslims to do more harm. What grave stupity.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 18:16 by Sickandtired @67.169.178.29 : Ignorant and intolerant
They demand others adhere to their rules and beliefs? Otherwise it is always the same...kill the Infidels.. Well this Infidel is tired of the bullshit. You want to meet your maker? I think a line is forming to help you with the introduction.

A cartoon... lighten up assholes.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 18:24 by pelin @85.103.50.210 : It s a shame
noone can attack our religion. some silly people who doesnt know Islam speak so silly. every day Muslims, especially in Iraq, die for some countrys' benefits. of course Muslims will defend themselves too. but we only want to respect for all religious not only Islam.
noone can draw caricatures of our Prophet Muhammad ..  



3 Feb 2006 @ 18:27 by bushman : Hmm
I'm thinking that maybe it's a better thing to just let the barbarians of all religions, just kill each other off, and this will make it a better world for us more intellegent, non-barbarians. Why would any God, allow humans to explore other planets, when they act like they do now? Just like gang violents, I say the same, let them kill each other and be done with it, the smartest people will just get out of the way, and wait. I believe the world is self cleansing. We must bid farewell to all the barbarians and bullies, of all religions. And people wonder why the NWO wants to cull 90% of the worlds population, it's because that 90%, are barbarians. If you get pissed off, to the point of murder and destruction, over what someone says about your God, then my friend, your an ignorant barbarian, that will never see the day mankind becomes a type 1 civilization, you will be left out in the cold, with your empty gun, and blown out flip-flops.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 18:28 by keith @62.253.128.12 : asif
if islam is non violeant as in belief then why do we see them doing what they are doing over the world acting like spoilt brats burning national flags over a cartoon drawn months ago??  


3 Feb 2006 @ 18:34 by alf @81.131.106.219 : Koran
I have read comments about how the Koran misleads people and offers teachings that are full of corrupt double meanings.But people.....I can assure you that I keep a copy of the Koran in my toilet,and let me just say that nothing else comes close to wiping my ass as smoothly or as effectivly as one page of silky smooth bullshit mohammed grade A .
Get a F*****g grip...Its a cartoon
Alfy  



3 Feb 2006 @ 18:38 by keith @62.253.128.12 : feel sorry for them
i feel sorry for blondes irishmen jews and black people as when a joke is said of them or a cartoon depicting them they dont go mad and set fire to an ephogy of the offending party do they?
buy more lurpak  



3 Feb 2006 @ 18:45 by keith @62.253.128.12 : ahhhh
DENMARK 1 ISLAM 0 in the polls  


3 Feb 2006 @ 18:54 by James @24.55.21.150 : Apples and Oranges
There's a fundamental problem with comparing a cartoon satire of the Jewish Community and that of Mohammed. One is a person the other is a deity that is perfectly capable of dealing with her problems if she actually exists. There are no gods. The minute you backwards dirt-scrounging idiots realize that, the better the rest of us who don't let antiquated fairy tales run our lives. (That goes to all fundies on both sides of this idiotic discussion.)  


3 Feb 2006 @ 19:00 by Blueblood @70.184.92.11 : Virgins
Still waiting for an answer about your virgin woman you dirt bathing sand monkies.Obviously your a religion of homo's if your willing to let untapped ass like that go to waste  


3 Feb 2006 @ 19:03 by keith @62.253.128.12 : mohammed
there is only one gr8 mohammed i can remember and his surname is ALI  


3 Feb 2006 @ 19:05 by Blueblood @70.184.92.11 : The great one indeed
float like a butterfly sting like a bee,but dont act insane like the muslims we see  


3 Feb 2006 @ 19:07 by keith @62.253.128.12 : flutterby
nice one blood......  


3 Feb 2006 @ 19:11 by alf @81.131.106.219 : a prophet
I,m trying to make a prophet here so have a look at this site
WWW.STEELPLEASURES.CO.UK  



3 Feb 2006 @ 19:11 by James @24.55.21.150 : High School
You know...on further reflection this whole thing in on the level of some dorky girl getting caught passing a nasty note about someone in school.
"Mr. Johnson, she won't apologize, she drew me with a stupid hat"

Honestly girls, grow up.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 19:20 by keith @62.253.128.12 : head
who died and made you the prophet j?  


3 Feb 2006 @ 19:47 by NaT @207.180.176.165 : Tolerating the Intolerant
Its quite pathetic that it has come to this... Europe with its prided civility catering to barbarians.
Tolerance is no longer tolerance it is anow COWARDICE

Why dont Europeans DEMAND apology for all the ills that have been brought to Europe and its citrizens world wide by simply insane inhumane satanism of thiese religious fanatics.

CAll it what it is INSANITY and cowardice, when you cater to gun wielding alah akbar murdering hordes of nomads. The more freedom and respect you give these barbarians the less you will enjoy. Appeasing UN and oil rich countries full of hatefull radicals will get you just what we are beginning to face. Empowerment of islamofascism.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 19:54 by KEITH @62.253.128.12 : i agree
you go nat i have seen the videos of the unfortunate victims of the spoils of ali akbar and it's not pretty these people get away with murder as no one is there to control as in a democracy as we live in a, line flat but not always truthful society, but when you call the athourities they will try to help and not behead the next western guy they see  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:02 by keith @62.253.128.12 : hang on nat
gont you realise they can't apologise they dont know the neaning of the word!!!!  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:06 by vibrani : in-born hatred
The comment by Amir K. is so bizarre - did you grow up in the U.S. and have our education? No where, no how did we ever learn about Muslims as being bad people when I was growing up. I'm in my mid-50s and today's education doesn't teach prejudice against Muslims, either. Unlike what Muslims learn in their madrases. We learned history, not biases. But I would venture that after 9/11, young children might have their own ideas and begin delving deeper into Muslim history, and learn about Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism, for instance, which is (as Muslim Imam Sheikh Palazzi says), "a totalitarian cult that stands for terror, massacre of civilians and permanent war against Jews, Christians and non-Wahhabi Muslims." The facts are there about how Muslims mistreated Jews in their countries, people who contributed greatly to their societies but because they were Jewish, they were kicked out, had their properties stolen, murdered.
First number is from the year 1948 of Jews in these countries, the second number of Jews living there from 2000:
Algeria 140,000, Less than 100
Egypt 75,000, 200
Iran 100,000, 12,000 to 40,000
Iraq 150,000, 100
Lebanon 20,000, 100
Libya 38,000, 0
Morocco 265,000, 5,800
Syria 30,000, 200
Tunisia 105,000, 1,500
Yemen 55,000, 200

Not hard to see a pattern. Now they're trying to make people believe their twisted history that there were never any Jews in ancient Israel hahahaha fools.

Now with the Muslims going hogwild over these cartoons, the world is just seeing more of who they really are, the Muslims they didn't really want to believe existed. Because in the past it was more like oh, they just hate the Jews not us...and they didn't want to read and learn that it's anyone who is not a Muslim that they don't accept as being human.

Spain has another lovely history of brutal Muslim invasions.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 20:09 by eye @207.180.176.165 : PISS BE UPON YOU
"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

In mosques throughout Palestinian cities, clerics condemned the cartoons. An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind the drawings should have their heads cut off.

"If they want a war of religions, we are ready," Hassan Sharaf, an imam in Nablus, said in his sermon.

About 10,000 demonstrators, including gunmen from the Islamic militant group Hamas firing in the air, marched through Gaza City to the Palestinian legislature, where they climbed on the roof, waving green Hamas banners.

"We are ready to redeem you with our souls and our blood our beloved prophet," they chanted. "Down, Down Denmark."

Thousands of protesters in the center of Nablus burned at least 10 Danish flags. In Jenin, about 1,500 people demonstrated, burning Danish dairy products. Hundreds protested in Jericho, and protests were held in towns throughout Gaza.

Fearing an outbreak of violence, Israel barred all Palestinians under age 45 from praying at Jerusalem's Al Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third holiest site.

Nevertheless, about 100 men chanting Islamic slogans and carrying a green Hamas flag demonstrated outside Jerusalem's Old City on Friday afternoon. The crowd scattered when police on horseback arrived, and some of the protesters threw rocks. Police broke up a second demonstration at Damascus Gate with tear gas and stun grenades.

In Iraq, the country's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, decried the drawings but did not call for protests.

"We strongly denounce and condemn this horrific action," he said in a statement posted on his Web site and dated Tuesday.

"Hands that reach Islam must be broken," chanted a group of extremists outside the Merkez Mosque in Istanbul.


-------------------------------------------

On a personal note i think its time to nuke a whole lotta imbecils!  



3 Feb 2006 @ 20:16 by keith @62.253.128.12 : all
i think its time these ppl were stopped from running other ppl out of were they live as they see it as a threat and all live together with their own beliefs and practice it as life goes on day to day. its not as if i go to a fellow workers house and say i dont like what you did today and killed his cat is it?  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:20 by keith @62.253.128.12 : ah
but which muslim bought the bacon to burn?  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:27 by LOL @207.180.176.165 : LMAO
They are boycotting danish dairy products LMAO!!
The only commodity palestinians had since PLO times is lots and lots of suicide bombers, lots and lots of suicide bombers posing for european news cameras, and lots of the same extorting money from EU and UN and US to fight 'evil' Israel.


Bless Israels tolerance for putting up with this BS for so long, i think now Europe is awakening to the 'struggle' of Islam around the world.


you gotta love the irony of these twisted eggheads, well hope they enjoy eating bullets  



3 Feb 2006 @ 20:31 by vibrani : That's right
wake up, world.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:34 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : Islam? TRY ISLAME
Eye, i just want you, and everyone else to know, that in the west bank only the muslims are angry, us chrisitnas are happy as hell, they are jumping around like idiots rofl.

Islam is a VERy, VERYYY retarted religion, Their fucked prophet fucked 2 women A NIGHT, and yet HE DARES to make muslim women stay virgins their whole lives, not to mention the ugly hijab. It's a religion based on SEX and hate (not to mention their UGLY AS HELL !!! Trust me i live with these pigs)
Jesus Said that no other prophets will come after him, and if one does come, he is fake.....PERIOD. Mohamed ( PISS be upon him ) is FAKE , LIVE WITH IT YOU UGLY BASTARDS.

Christianes like me in the middle east are living a really hard life, they have to deal with these shits everyday.
Btw i just wanna know do u guys consider christians here the- same as muslims? Cuz im christian and i feel like you christian countries have our backs, or at least think of us in a better way than muslims don't you? :S  



3 Feb 2006 @ 20:47 by vibrani : There is a difference
and Arab Christians have been through hell living with the Muslims in the Middle East. Maybe the Christians need to take a new stand now? I know the Muslims came into your churches and used people as shields, they stole from the churches, took over Christian homes, killed people for being Christians - and that includes other countries, like what they did to Christians in Lebanon is barbaric.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:49 by bushman : Hmm
I think the christian God/prophet said, turn the other cheek, love thy enemies, and something like, revenge is thyn. But I have to say some chistians are not any different than muslims. They don't give thier god oppertunity to have his fun and get revenge. It's Gods job to get due revenge, not the humans that worship him/her.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:54 by vibrani : I wasn't talking about revenge
Bushman, just in case you were referring to my comments. I don't believe in a vengeful, punishing God. Those are human attributes that create karma.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:55 by keith @62.253.128.12 : god
god will give and taketh away as he sees fit. his way is not an instant one but those who are important to him ie the good  


3 Feb 2006 @ 20:56 by vibrani : LOL
and using your line of thinking, the Muslims should be blessed because they think they're good.

How could God not love every one of its own creations?!  



3 Feb 2006 @ 20:59 by keith @62.253.128.12 : god
he can he takes the good not, those who harm the rest of us as in islam  


3 Feb 2006 @ 21:01 by vibrani : And so
you probably also believe that God allows millions of people to die in genocide, or a catastrophic accident; or on the other end win an Oscar or Grammy award, or get a football touchdown because they're favorites? I don't think so. That is a person's need to feel special, the ego and fear speaking; not what really is.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 21:01 by bushman : Nope
, was commenting to "islamisdying" his words seek and show a vengful heart, to me. :}  


3 Feb 2006 @ 21:02 by vibrani : Okay, Bushman
thanks for the clarification.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 21:06 by bushman : Accually keith,
According to Revolations, God in the end, judges us by our good works, and dosnt even take the bad works into account. Although, I cant really speak for god, thats how I read it, and understood it.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 21:07 by keith @62.253.128.12 : anon
no i dont genocide as is the way these ppl think is there way of life and to kill amounts of ppl untold, in a ravage of swift killing and start wars belief's are misconstroud and why they listen to,but the difference is the islam way of life is, dont quote me wrong a good one for their beliefs but we do not have to go that way and we do notneed them to instruct us so  


3 Feb 2006 @ 21:22 by vibrani : Exactly
we have never told Muslims not to believe in their God, so why can't they accept that not everyone has the same belief and it's okay? The only reason is that they need to feel superior and they want to control everyone. That goes for any extremist religion who thinks they're the special ones. People are so insecure and lazy - why don't they try understanding God on their own, without the stuff written in a book?  


3 Feb 2006 @ 21:45 by United @70.51.142.4 : Lets help
Who knows what Danish goods can be purchased in Canada? (Except of Tuborg beer :-)  


3 Feb 2006 @ 22:43 by jensen @82.150.88.121 : ehhHHHHH
i couldn't care less, danish export to those countries is estimated 1 % of the total export. and then if we stopped our aid and other help it might be even.

but one thing i do not understand is that, how can a "civilized world" and im talking about muslims, expect us to take them serious when all they can do is protest with signs about them wanting to behead the people behind the cartoons
and people wear'in signs with text like "europe remember the 9/11" "europe you will learn the lesson". wtF ? muslims wake up its the year 2006

i do really hope that all this will end in a peaceful way. because then i dont have dust of the viking gear.

yes im aware that the muslim people reading this properly aint the same as the ones standing in some desert with a sign and burning the danish flag.  



3 Feb 2006 @ 22:59 by Richard @24.71.50.68 : exposing i SLAM
The uncivilised response we see to these cartoons comes as no surprise to me. i SLAM does not want to be exposed,as these cartoons truthfully depict.Whoever shines the light on the life of the false prophet will get slammed.The koran and it's gospel books such as the hadith are rife with terrorism,pedophelia,rape and murder.Mohamedslife is the antithesis of Christs  


3 Feb 2006 @ 23:23 by richard @24.71.50.68 : exposing i SLAM
If mohameds life was as noble as they would have us believe, why all the fear and intimidation.islam rose to its stature through terror and birthright.A person born in a muslim family, and wants to change his religoun is to be put to death according to their holy books.The whloe concept of i SLAM smells of Fear and domination through terror within the muslim community and the world  


3 Feb 2006 @ 23:25 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : Its there fault
We muslims are not terrorists but when it comes to insulting a Prophet then the ones responsible must be punished ...we asked for an apology but it wont be deliverd then we hae to harvest our punishment our selves ...there is where the boycutt took place .....and by te way the losses off this boycutt is estimate by 61 billion till now.  


3 Feb 2006 @ 23:35 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : Green Day
One day we will rule this lands again and bring justice to this world where racist ppl like danes's who drew such stuff will be have respect and when feeling very funny and want to make funny cartoons maby they draw themselves better.....  


3 Feb 2006 @ 23:37 by john waheed @86.130.174.237 : chill out shaky
if the muslim population wised-up and spent its time educating its people instead of propogating its f*cked up medieval beliefs then maybe they would have something more productive to do than complain about a stupid cartoon! wake up islam and smell the coffee brother  


3 Feb 2006 @ 23:38 by vibrani : There ya go
see, there's no getting through to most of them. Guess what Shaykhoon - Mo isn't a prophet/profit to us. In fact, seems like he was a real pervert, kidnapping and raping young children in his own family, living by lies and violence. Some prophet, yeah. Jesus isn't God to me, either. So, what you gonna do about it? We all have our opinions. It's how you deal with them that's important. Is the only solution to anything you don't agree with to murder or boycott?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:06 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : Vibrani's Ignorence
both prophet Muhammad and jesus deserve respect because they are ones chosen from GOD over humanity .....ur ignorence filled with racisem cannot cange any thing in both thier history ......thier history is the absolute story of perfectin in humaman means....raping and kiddnapping is ur ideas in the west created and forged by you .....not us.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:12 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : to john
Jhon we do have problems of beeing third world countries i can see that but its not because we follow ISLAM , no but by beeing just as u so far from reliegion and closr to sins , and also because of beeing ruled by absolute fools like mubarak but this will be alla over soon and come one give us a break we ruled the woirld for over 1000 years if u know history .....we had to fall like all ...... but the diff. is that we will rise again ... then justice will be back and all will live happely then.............!!  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:14 by vibrani : hahahaha
well, I don't agree with you at all. You can't change truth. Mo's story is told by Muslim scholars, not from any racism on my part. Maybe you could expand your thinking. But with the attitude that you will rise again and then there will be justice, is just repeating old Muslim ways of doing things and openly declares an agenda we're already aware of and don't accept for ourselves.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:19 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : for black boy
we will apologize when we aprove ... what i mean is we never supported 9/11 or the bombings in britan .... if u havent noticed the bombinges were in sharm el shiek as well ....the bombers are not Muslims the bombers are units having intrestes from many dealers ..... and by the way from the belifes that u think is teaching terrorism we have things called war beavior
Prphet muhammad said
never attack at night to not scare women and children ...when in battel never hurt and old man women chiled a plant or an animal .... and if the enemy calles for peace accept it.......for crying out lowed the butcher Hitler and his frnd mosoliny where from the west ....... or u do think they are MUSLIMS too?? maybe ur that ignorent..  



4 Feb 2006 @ 00:20 by vibrani : Try this
[link]  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:21 by vibrani : Ha
do you know the meaning of Hudna? And Jihad? You're not talking to ignorant people.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:23 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : yes i do
its a peace offering that stops battles for a certain or un certain time...  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:26 by SHAYKOON @62.135.96.186 : so
u still know nothing about our Prophet ... all he did in this world is bring it back on its feet ....light the darkness ........and then ignorently u say such things about him..  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:30 by vibrani : Or
And try this Muslim site. [link]  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:31 by vibrani : Hudna
Nope. A hudna is a false peace that Muslims make in order to gain them time to regroup and gain more power so they can squash their enemy. They say it's peace, but it's a lie. How you manipuate. At times it is used with a potential for it to be a lasting peace, but....Hey, I'm giving you MUSLIM sources - I didn't make up this stuff.

Hudna has a distinct meaning to Islamic fundamentalists, well-versed in their history: The prophet Mohammad struck a legendary, ten-year hudna with the Quraysh tribe that controlled Mecca in the seventh century. Over the following two years, Mohammad rearmed and took advantage of a minor Quraysh infraction to break the hudna and launch the full conquest of Mecca, the holiest city in Islam. Arafat attempted a hudna, too.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 00:33 by SHAYKOON @62.135.96.186 : who wrote that
this was wrote by fools who cut half of the prophets words and just make a case out of it + the words of the Khalifa Omar Bin Khattab for example was totaly made up .
we where given Hegab we made women cover up and respected her for crying out lowed u used ur women as toyes by just putting them and thier pics naked every where u made a mokkery out of them and u say we treat them bad ....  



4 Feb 2006 @ 00:34 by richard @24.71.50.68 : Has God gone insane
Humanity since its inception has lived under the Law of an 'eye for an eye'.As we evolved and became more civilised, Christ introduced into our psyche,"turn the other cheek.Love your enemies,do good unto those who harm you"Divine concepts to further our evolution. Why would God send mohamed and his terrorist teachings a few hundred years later to throw us backwards into darkness.Either God went insane or some other diabolical force sent him. Think about it. If anyone wants bring out into the open the example of mohameds life,as written by his followers, as the cartoons portray,muslims are whipped into an animalistic frenzy that those in the civilised world do not understand. Fear and ignorance are powerful tools. Keep the masses ignorant and threaten them with death. I say expose mohamed for who he really was, and in so doing you expose i SLAM. We have recently seen Mel Gibsons depiction of Jesus Christ in our theaters. I f mohamed was God's final prophet sent to humanity, let's go to their holy books and provide society with an unbiased depiction of mohamed and his nine year old wife Aiysha  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:36 by vibrani : Actions
speak louder than words, Shaykoon. We see Muslims actions, enough said.

Speaking for a worldwide account of how women are treated - there is child abuse and slavery all over the world, and abuse against women, too. Those are mostly done against their free will. Muslims are well known for their abuses against women and women have no free will. If someone WANTS to be a prostitute or model, and they're choosing it on their own, that's a free society. Muslim societies are not free - and we can see from your words how much you fear freedom by needing to control women and say it's because you respect them. BULLSHIT! That isn't respect, and it isn't love. It is slavery.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 00:37 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : yeah sure
muslim source is written by ( M. Rafiqul-Haqq and P. Newton ) u r kidding ur self + the define of hudna is totaly wrong its just an arabic word means what i have said not that.....and gehad is the spirit of sacrefce for islam and for GOD ...... watch AMerican movies of heros .... they probably die for a cause at the end .....wich means its a human noble concept ....i donno how u dont understand it ...are u green or somth.?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:40 by vibrani : *
*  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:41 by vibrani : I think you don't know
much about your own religion.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:43 by vibrani : If God
is God, why would it need or demand a sacrifice? Is it that weak and needy a character? Think outside of the box for a moment.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:45 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : how can u say that
how can u say that we through any one in darkness check the eroupean history we got u out of ur darkness we invented chemestry and improved physics mathematics and hundreds of other kinds of knolages ... we where ur light .... now u say we through u back in darkness u are so un knowing anything in ur entire life about what u where...... if we have foolish belifes then how come we ruled the world for over 1000 years ....  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:46 by vibrani : Oh get over it
The ancient Sumerians and Egyptians and Chinese did much more. What and when was the last good thing Muslims did for the benefit of humanity around the world? And if you're so great, how come you haven't "ruled the world" (your conception, not reality) for the last thousand plus years? You wish you ruled the world again.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:47 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : i ll let u answer ur self
do u know why are we her i mean in this life from the first place??  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:48 by vibrani : Yes, I do.
Do you?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:52 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : 1st i am EGYPTIAN
and i know exactly the greatness of the pharos ...well most of them not all but i tell u Islam is far greater and have accomplished far better ... in the ages of islam there was no poor ppl rouming the streets for a 100 years happend only 6 murdeds ...watch even how big the empire was from spain to china ....6 murders i bet there is more than 6 murders dayly in every city in euorop  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:55 by vibrani : However
even today there are women in Muslim countries who can't dress the way they want to, can't hold jobs, can't teach or go to school, can't drive a car, aren't allowed in public alone, can't marry who they want to. They are forced to undergo genital mutilation. That is all done in the name of Islam. If they choose not to obey, they are murdered. That is slavery, not freedom, not great and not an accomplishment.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 00:56 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : yep
we were chosen over angels and gens to build the world and make a great place of it .... by then the best in that and in folloing GOD's teaches and beliefs we may have the way back to heaven .... by thet there were hard tests .... the tuffest is to die for GOD fighting the ones who battles against the mission of humanity .... thats y its the highest and hardest rank of obediance to GOD.
wich is the most noble sacrefice of all  



4 Feb 2006 @ 00:57 by bushman : Hmm
Anyway it wasnt islam that invented that great stuff, it was an intellegent Arabic individual, not a religion. I mean burn all the flags you want, call names, but a civilized person "draws the line" at makeing death threats, and acting apon them.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:00 by vibrani : Well, that's not really it
sorry, but that's very twisted. We were not chosen over angels. Angels and us were all created by the same Source. We chose to fragment from the Source in order to be little creator gods ourselves, experience life in many forms, including physical form. Through the process of this, changing of densities and dimensions, and time in the third dimension, people forget. The fall is all about this forgetfulness of one's divinity. Life is to remember, to love and experience all the forms of God that there are in every one of us. No one is better than another. Remember, God created EVERYTHING, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, all creatures, rocks, water, storms, planets, stars - all of it. There is no place that is not of God.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:01 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : what
1st slavery is when sending naked women on the street or picturing her for mens plesure ... not by degnifing her with dressing her up + i admit that in some countries women is as u say not allowed to many things but its not what the prophet said..... by the way the prophets Daughter used to work as a nurse for the army....  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:02 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : ok ok
about the things of angels forget it i have a belife and u have one and i respect urs ....forget the details  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:03 by vibrani : The problem is
that there are many different interpretations of religion, Islam especially. There is little agreement among Muslims as to what is the truth.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:06 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : bushman
do u know what arabs where before ISlam they were never noticed as usfull creatures ...then the prophet shows up they follow him suddenly they are world leaders and thinkers ...still dont u think that ISLAM gave them an edge??  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:06 by vibrani : Yes I agree
with you that naked women on the street selling sex can be a form of slavery. Some women who feel they have no other options, choose to do this, too. That is a real pity. Thank you for acknowledging that Muslim women don't have equal rights.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:07 by vibrani : In all ages
there are individuals who come to remind people of who they are, to rekindle the divine spark within. Living divinely means respecting all life, not intentionally abusing it, wouldn't you agree?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:09 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : vibrani now u know what u are talking
about ... look that is one of our probs now i admit but u surely noticed that now one have a diff. openion abut quraan like u di in the bible.....  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:11 by vibrani : Shaykhoon
I really do think that people can come together on the basis of what we share in common, rather than our differences - while respecting our differences. What do you think about that? I don't have a problem with you believing in Mohammad. I do have a problem if you try to force your beliefs on me and demand I life and believe as you do. That is where we have a conflict between our cultures.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:13 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : ...
i do agree these ppl who reminde us are called prophets ..... wich we consider Great Muhammad the last of them ..
in other way i didnt say women have no equal rights they do in ISLAM but in some countries by mistake thaey dont which is not what the prophet said  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:14 by bushman : No I don't,
Im Armenian, yet you don't see me here whining about the Turks that tryed to whipe out my family, for deciding that we didnt want to be muslims. We where smart enough then to pick the most decent religion at hand. And move to a new land/run in terror of turkish swords, to ultamatly find a safe home, away from ignorance.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:15 by vibrani : Shaykoon
That is a problem in interpretation, and unfortunately that becomes law - not free for all people to find their own interpretation of religion.

I think there are prophets in all ages - one only need be open and see them. They are everywhere.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:16 by vibrani : That is also why
I think religion should NEVER dictate a country's policy.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:18 by vibrani : Now I have a question for you
why don't Muslim nations allow Jews and Christians to freely visit without fear of being attacked or killed? Some countries don't allow Jews at all. And these are countries in which Jews helped to build before they were expelled from them. What are Muslims so afraid of?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:19 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : we respect ur belifes
look we never forced anyone to beleave in MUHAMMAD i admit that in our relegion we have to tell uabout islam and convince u with it not force u to it ..... we respeect ur beleaves we just want u to respect ours ....and about caring to make u beleave in ISLAM its jutst that we see it the way to heaven and we whant u in heaven with us .... its not a fight of belife iits just a fight against who mokes our relegion and then says its freedom .. see thats the only prob.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:20 by vibrani : If you believe
that God created all of life, then what's the problem? Islam and Judaism (and Christianity, once removed) have the same roots in Abraham, for example.

I don't agree with you about not forcing people into Islam. It is a reality every day. And if a western woman goes to some Muslim nations, she is not accepted as she is - she has to conform to Muslim dress and behavior. That is not freedom.

When Saudis came to see Bush in Texas they refused to be flown by a woman pilot in our air force. Just because she is a woman. What kind of crap is that? Then men and women in Syria, for example, bite the heads off of puppies, kittens and snakes to show what they will do to their enemies. How can there be peace if everyone is an enemy?  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:26 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : Like Mecca?
we allow them to visit every where but mecca in egypt cristians are our dearest frnds ever .... jews are too but not Israelies if u dont know why count the palasteniens who die every day by the Israelean terorism ...
mecca is authorized for muslims only thats kinda normal ...see it that way... when i come tto ur country u will need a visa from me to enter ur visa in mecca is ISLAm ppl from verey where go there with thier special pasport Islam moslems from us euorp asia russa and australia and middle east we just have different visa ISLAM u need me to be garantead by ur pplk as well  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:27 by vibrani : No, I don't mean Mecca
I am talking about being a tourist or there for a job. Excuse me, but do you know how many Israelis and others have been permanently damaged or died due to Palestinian bombs, knives, guns, and that Israel was forced to defend itself against these attacks? The Arabs always started the attacks and then celebrate how many they killed.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:34 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : mm
lol u havent seen EGYPT ...in sharm el shiek for example ur women are there even toppless we dont force any one to dress like ud .... we made areas just for u to be free as u see it.
+ i admit that saudi arabia have some problems in taking relegion very off limits .. but i assure u that is not what we were orderd ...
and yes all therelegons have the same roots thats why the three of us have the same GOD have some close beliefes coz we are all decending from the same place ... in ISLAM its said that it is an improvement of relegion like emagin if sons of adam where told to go to church or to pray 5 times a day they wont understand so its was given in steps... how ever jesus and moses have the same holyness in our hearts as MUHAMMAD and we respect them as well.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:37 by vibrani : I've been to Sharm
by the way :-) hahaha. I'm not using Egypt as a main example. That's why I said some Muslim nations.

But, don't you see what is going on when someone says one religion is better than another? It is automatically making enemies, not accepting another's beliefs. It is politically motivated. It's like saying, yeah we accept Moses and Jesus, but we're still better. Is that the point of living? Does that bring people together - or make them more separate?  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:39 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : but wait
yes i know we seem as attack starters but go back since "belfor" when he gave a land he does not own to ppl who does not deserve the palasteniens are beeing eleminated here what do u think must the do ... they are sacreficing them selves for freeing thier land..... and the celebration is a war tactice u may approve or dissap[prove its scaring tackticks.... we never started war with them they started it and now they are in our lands ... think as if u were a palasteniene robed off ur land and freedom ... what will u do ?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:42 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : Freedom of Speech in Europe

Guys, Sorry I haven't replied yesterday as it was my wedding anniversary. Had to promise the wife not to touch the computer all day long ;-)

I see the other side has ganged up on us with their hateful hearts. I am not going to credit those with a comment and will only reply to respectable, thought provoking comments.

Ahmed Fakhro,
Upon your request, I would like to enlighten you about freedom of speech and religion traditions in Europe:

In Denmark, the Government and the press are totally seperate. The Government and the Queen can't interfere with people's right of speech or religion. They can't even comment on it. Please read what Queen Margarethe of Denmark had to say on April 14th 2005:
"Denmark's Queen Margrethe has told a biographer that Islam is a challenge that Danes will have to meet. In a new royal biography, the Queen told reporter Annelise Bistrup that it is both inspiring and frightening when people embrace a religion as completely as many Islamists do. "This is a challenge that has to be met, and which we have not met so far"


European and North American laws guarantee freedom of speech and expression. You can not prosecute anybody for speaking his mind. Unless he is from the revisionist movement like the following names then you can be fined, fired, jailed and in some cases killed. One of these guys was prosecuted because he put the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust at 5.1m instead of 6:

Paul Rassinier,Robert Faurisson,Thies Christopherson,Judge Wilhelm Steglich,Joseph Burg,Professor Arthur Butz,Francois Dupart,Ditlieb Felderer,
Professor Austin App,Ernst Zundel,Jim Keegstra,Frank Walnus,Tjiudar Rudolf,Udo Walendy,Fred Leuchter,
David Irving,Gerd Honsik,Walte L, ftl,Imre Finta,Otto Ernst Remer,John Demjanjuk,Germar Rudolf,Bradley Smith,
Ingrid Weckert,Erhard Kemper,Gunther Deckert,Hans Schmidt,Gurgen Graf,Siegfried Verbeke,Carlos Porter,Pedro Varela,
Ahmed Rami,Nick Graffin,Jean Marie Le Pen,Roger Garaudy,Robert Countess,Fredrick Toben,

Now Don't get me wrong, I don't know these people nor do I know enough about what they stand for but the point I am trying to make is clear I hope.


As for the freedom of the media, then it is the most sacred in the West. The following are some examples:

- in October of 2003, the US government directly interfered with the broadcast of the Syrian TV series Al-Shatat for negatively depicting the Zionist movement. The state department asked several Arab government to stop the broadcast of the series. All have complied except Lebanon based Al-Manar TV station.

- 10 Dec 2004 Al-Manar TV station was removed from the US airwaves.

- 22 Dec 2004 the EU lead by France pulls the plus on Lebanese TV station Al-Manar

- 13 November 2001 Aljazeera TV station office in Kabul was bombed by a US missile.

- On April 8th, 2003 American forces bombed the Baghdad office of the Pan-Arab TV station Aljazeera which resulted in the death of one reporter (Tareq Ayoub) and wounded another.

- 29 December 2003 Pentagon Advisor Frank Gaffney published an opinion piece calling for both Al-Jazeera and Alarabiya TV stations to be taken down "one way or another"

- A memo leaked from No. 10 to the Daily Mirror which stated that President Bush planned to bomb the Head Quarters of Qatar based Al-Jazeera TV station.



- One person mentioned that David Irving was interviewed on their local TV. I am more interested to know how many times David Irving was banned, harrased, tried, and convicted for speaking.



- I c a lot of dudes are trying to put a violent tone on the Muslim respone which is not true. Today there were hundreds of demonstrations all over the world and none of them produced any violence (I pray for it to stay that way). Of course there was a bomb threat 2 days ago but please underdtand that we are 1.3 billion people. You can't prevent a teenager from calling a bomb threat out of anger or out of fun even. A while ago in the us, a guy called a bomb threat to his work just so he can take a longer lunch hour. This is hard to control. In addition, this is considered very tame compared to the reactions that were experienced when "The Last Temptation of Christ" the movie was shown into theaters. If you all recall, there were hundreds of death threats and tens of theaters burnt down in protest.

- Now if you are talking about Danish troops in Iraq then that is another story. They have chosen to participate in a war and it is only reasonable to expect that they are going to be shot at. Isn't this what war is all about.

- I kind of agree that the reaction to the cartoons is very strong, but please understand that this is not just an isolated incident. Muslims in Denmark have been complaining for months about a pattern of behaviour taken against them starting with the Queen's statements all the way down. It has become too much

Andrius and Ming, you are a breath of fresh air in this forum. I would be honored to join your independent thinking group. I will go through the website and will follow up as soon as I can.

Some dudes mentioned in their comments that Islam is an entolerant religion, I will try to respond to this in a a future post.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:42 by vibrani : The Arabs
here's what happened, Shaykoon...let's be honest.
[link]

As for the last post, check around, there were many Muslims having hot demonstrations burning flags and calling for violence over those cartoons.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:43 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : i am with u in that
of course thats very wrong to say we are better and such stuff we are all equal at last relegion is for GOD and we are all human beaings as like we will all be Judged by GOD ....who says such things is wrong.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:45 by vibrani : Okay
Thanks for the discussion. I have to go now. Give some time to think about our discussion and the last link I left you. Take care. Talk with you later.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:48 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : ok man
and am really pleased to talk to an understanding man ... i have miss judged u by saying u are a raceist ... bye now and see u later  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:51 by vibrani : heehee
I'm a woman. Thank you. Bye.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:52 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : By the way
do u know what els golda meir said by the way
she said " the Muslaims will retake thier lands and be standing where i am when the no. of the ones who pry (al fagr prayer ) are equal the ones who pray ( al gomaa prayer ). which means when they follow thier relegion truthfully .
notice thats not the exact words but thats what the words meant.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:54 by vibrani : One last question before I go tonight
what do you think of what Sheikh Palazzi says?

Israel - we have a long list of people responsible for the present condition - starting with Arafat, England, Sadat even, Begin for giving in to Sadat, Jimmy Carter, even Clinton. But the solution means someone is going to have to give up their idea of having Israel as a Palestinian country.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 01:55 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : lol
hehe didnt know sorry.....bye  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:56 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : mmm
sorry what did he say again  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:56 by vibrani : I know
it's okay. Good night/morning. Oh Palazzi - check out my news log. If you can't get there let me know. I'll put up a link.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 01:58 by vibrani : Here
[link]  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:00 by Roger @218.103.252.173 : Mohammed Cartoon
If a parent stops to pacify every scream from every child in their house they'll never leave, never get anywhere. If we continue to accommodate the childish demands of this group we'll have to do it for every group and the world will be so PC we'll get nowhere. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:00 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : :S
password needed!!!!!  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:02 by vibrani : Oh hmmm
It is set for the public to read. I don't know why you can't see it. Can I email it to you?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:04 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : ok
ok my mail is AL_KHALEFA@hotmail.com  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:05 by vibrani : Got it
okay - will send it now. Then you can remove your email from this log.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:12 by Chris @24.131.202.17 : Muslims
I say screw the Muslims. I used to think that it was just a radical few, but look at the overall reaction of these religious fanatics (freaks). It's obvious their religion is poison. They are calling for the death of the cartoonist or the bombing of the newspaper. How fucking silly is that. This is their reaction to satire or a free press?!? These people are disturbed, and should be locked away in their own country, given guns (because you know they'll start shooting each other immediately), and ignored for all time. I don't know, maybe the sun just bakes their brains.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:17 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : well
my opinion s that he is a fool and a trator to any thing he is supposed to stand for ...and i guess he is payed of excpects to be paid to say that  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:23 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : fools
chris it seems that u just woke up and didnt organize ur thoughts yet muslims are almost 2 billion of 6 billion living in this world .... + raceism is not an option u can afford ......so just get back to sleep .  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:28 by Danish @86.52.46.251 : Support us

Some of us Europeans knows what the Americans did doing that 1, and 2'nd world war. You helped us from the evil! And now it's time to help us once more... All people of Europe and America, who loves democracy and freedom, please buy Danish products. Don't let the muslims decide abouth our freedom of speech!  



4 Feb 2006 @ 02:31 by Chris @24.131.202.17 : Support the Danes
Excellent Idea!! I am going out to buy Danish products tomorrow! All Americans and Europeans and allies should support each other. I will email all my friends with the same instruction! Buy Danish!  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:33 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : Danish
danish u wont hold out for long ...i guess ur losses till now is 61 billion dayly since we started boycutting u ...i hope u stop following the devil and apologize let us all live peacefully once again.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:34 by Chris @24.131.202.17 : 2 Billion
2 Billion Shaykhoon? I think one Ohio Class submarine can cut that number by 50%. You stupid Muslims better watch how far you push this war. Don't think it can't happen. You're showing up to the gun fight with a stick, shithead.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:35 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : US Reaction
The US State Department called for European media to act more responsibly and not to offend Muslims. Kurtis Cooper, a department spokesman, said “We all respect freedom of the press but . . . inciting religious or ethnic hatreds in this manner is not acceptable.”

- Even the US government sees this as incitment of religious and ethnic hatred.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 02:36 by Chris @24.131.202.17 : GDP
Hey Shaykhoon, 61 Billion a day???? Denmark's annual GDP is approx $162Billion. Kinda hard to imagine you towelheads buying 61 Billion Danish anythings in a year let alone a day. Dumbshit.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:38 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : hehe
u think i cannot see tha this might lead to a war ..., i do we never hoped for war but u asked for it so we will show u no mercy by then dont forget our power we have 90% of the petroleam in the wolrld + GOD is on our side u will be crushed by toys but then remember u asked for war..... as we crushed u in ages past we shall do so again.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:40 by Chris @24.131.202.17 : Oil
Do you know what the US government's policy is if they run out of oil? They will simply take it. What are you going to do to stop it??? Strap an explosive device on another teenage kid or girl? You're a bunch of idiots.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:41 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : :)
still again.... i hope u stop madness and about us AMERICA hates raceism i guess u r gardian wont be all on ur side now....  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:45 by Chris @24.131.202.17 : Peace
We are a peaceful people. You could stop all this hate and war. Simply stop killing people with bombs! It's that simple...stop killing people. You are at fault. No one else. Your people think they will get a bunch of virgins when they die for your cause. That is the stupidist thing I have ever heard. When your terrorists die in their horrible acts they will most likely be fucked in the ass by pigs in hell for all eternity.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 02:45 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : u cannot take it lol if we dont give it
Remember 1973 when we cut out the petrolyem off u and u cried like sisees lol.
well i wont waste my time talking to u chris i only talk to the sain ppl of u ...Bye  



4 Feb 2006 @ 03:01 by vibrani : General Motors
runs cars on sugar in South America, and we can do it, too. We can run cars on old cooking oil, garbage. Don't need Arab oil. I'm not boycotting Denmark because I believe in freedom of the press. I don't think the intent was to insult Muslims, but to express how they are seen by the Western world. If they don't like their own reflection, maybe they need to think about what they're putting out.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:07 by Dabish @86.52.46.251 : SHAYKHOON
What a f..cking idiot!
61 billion! If your rediculus country didn't have any oil, you've would have been living in poverty like all other muslim countries! And if islam is superior to all other societies, please mention ONE muslim country that does well, with out oil-money! The fact is that muslim countrys are living in the middle ages, 200-300 years behind the western world (with the only excemption of the US deep south, who doesn't believe in Darwin).
Wake up! Muhammed was a fake, as was Jesus and Budda! But the muslims are the only ones taking this shit serious. What the fuck is wrong with you guys?  



4 Feb 2006 @ 03:07 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : mmm
maybe we will see very soon if u can hold on or not ... but i hope not ... may denmark get back to its miunde and know that insulting relegions is not freedom its raceisem.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:12 by Danish @86.52.46.251 : SHAYKHOON
"maybe we will see very soon if u can hold on or not ... but i hope not ... may denmark get back to its miunde and know that insulting relegions is not freedom its raceisem."

What a fucking idiot! And judging an entire country because of a few drawings isn't racist???????? You stupid muslim moron!  



4 Feb 2006 @ 03:13 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : Great JUSES and MUHAMMAD
jusus is not fake as dop MUHAMMAD ...i admit that we have a draw back and we are almost the worse countries now ...but thats because we got further and futher away from ISLAM and now we dont follow as we were ordered...come on as i said when MUHAMmAD came to us he made us rule the world and provideit with the extreem knolage for more than 1000 years  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:14 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : sorry
sorry i sent a lnk in danish's name by mistake.......  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:16 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : :S
i got to sleep ppl and u are buncjh of raceists and am starting to get confused see u later bye  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:23 by Danish @86.52.46.251 : Hitler
Shaykhoon, Hitler also promised his followers a 1000-year empire (riech). Do you see my point?
Furthermore, I know a lot of danis people who are tired of muslims telling them what to do! My guess is that you are living in a european country, otherwise you've woudn't have been allowed to issued theese the point of views (Mostly because 75% of all wep-sites are banned in the muslim world).
So I hope you're enjoying your freedem of speech, and the social benifits that you and your family are collecting from the Governments that you so clearly hate!  



4 Feb 2006 @ 03:25 by vibrani : Shaykhoon
why do you need to be ordered to follow any belief? Can't you find God on your own? I think this is one of the biggest issues the world over: those who choose to follow organized religions and those who choose to create their own. Maybe it's just my observation but it seems that the ones following organized religion are usually those not able to accept those who don't, or against who have found a way to use religion in a healthy way for themselves and towards others. It seems to boil down to those who don't need or want a religious leader versus those who do and then how everyone interacts. Polarities and then the balance of the two....

Shaykoon - you didn't answer my question about what Muslims fear. Is it change? Anything that is different?  



4 Feb 2006 @ 03:26 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : hehe
thats because these percent mostly cocern porn + i am from EGYPT and i live there  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:27 by vibrani : lol
you sure seem to pay a lot of attention to porn.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:29 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : vibrani
we have never forced any one to ISLAM and never forced any one to even listen to our thoughts ...AS ALLAH says u have ur relegion and i have mine......  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:30 by vibrani : Here's my take on religion
religion is largely based on fear of accepting who we are and living as we choose. It tries to make people feel bad for being divine creations, so how can people live divinely with that instilled in them from birth? You are sinful, you can't have sex, you can't do this or that. Suppress your true nature, and you got problems.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:31 by vibrani : Shaykhoon
that would be nice if it were true, but as we discussed before, there are many interpretations of Islam and ways of living as Muslims that don't see it the same way you do.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:31 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : lol
lol not really but i know whats going outside in the world thats y i know that the biggest share of websites now is porn :)  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:32 by vibrani : By the way
did you get the article I emailed you?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:33 by vibrani : Yes
there are so many porn sites, but I don't go to them. Just as there are many nude clubs/bars, houses of ill repute lol - don't need to go there.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:36 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : vibrani
u wont excpect all who say they are muslims to be perfect we never said we were GODS we are humans who try to follow thier beleafes
for example danish and the otheres do u see them so good in talking ... they are just swearing without understanding.....+ the way i try to show it to u is how it is but its even better.....  



4 Feb 2006 @ 03:37 by vibrani : I was a Sufi
in my last lifetime, and that was okay, and Muslim in previous ones that I remember. I know what is there...and that's why I'm not there now lol.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:37 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : yes
yep i did  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:39 by vibrani : Okay
good.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:45 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : by the way
and by the way danish hitler promised his ppl with a 1000 year empire of hateand crulty we promis u 1000 years of just and light + for crying out lowd hitler is one of u ........  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:50 by vibrani : Hitler
was insane, in the greatest illusion of being separate from God. And he killed many Europeans, Indians, gypsies, Muslims, Jews, gay people, African people; anyone he didn't think measured up to his idea of perfection. He wasn't one of us - he was in the lowest class of his own creation...and some chose to join him there in the greatest place of darkness so that eventually the light could shine on it and wipe it out. The battle still continues, however, whenever one people with massive egos think they're superior to another or that they have a right to control people or use genocide. Now, when we see Muslims go extreme, it has a familiar ring to it and most people don't want to see a repeat of such negative activity. Look at Iran - Muslim nation preaching genocide. Isn't that like Hitler?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 03:56 by Danish @86.52.46.251 : ... By the way
Sorry for nit responding right away Shaykhoon, but I was surfing porn...lol!
And excuse me for qouting you but still:
"and by the way danish hitler promised his ppl with a 1000 year empire of hateand crulty we promis u 1000 years of just and light + for crying out lowd hitler is one of u ........ "
Comparing Hitler to us europeans, is the same as comparing you to those assholes who blew uo the WTC. Whatøs your opinion on that?  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:03 by Juan Pablo Almeyda @62.252.32.12 : mohammed islam pictures
i think these pictures are a very stupid idea of the danishes to start a war with the islamic religion... i have studied about islam and i know that its very close to christianity, same god, same jesus, now they wouldnt want jesus shown in pictures either, or moses or ibrahim...
thank you
p.s to that idiot vibrani theres no such thing as extreme and whatever u call it and all that crap darkness whatever rubbish u wer saying, it sounds like something which came at the top of ur head when u wer in the toilet mate, and also mohammed didnt tell anybody to kill u stupid idiot go learn it sounds like u never read a book in ur life
thank you every one  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:05 by vibrani : Oh please
if you think a cartoon is an effort to start a war, there would be plenty more wars than currently exist on this planet. Did you ask the cartoonist personally? That's laughable.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:06 by vibrani : And
Juan - I'm not an idiot. There are people who are extreme in all religions. If you don't see it, not my fault. And learn to write would you.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:06 by Danish @86.52.46.251 : Red Sea
And based on your previous postings Shaykhoon. I bet you wish I'd cherrish all the muslims who died in that ferry accident today!
But that's the differance between you and me. I don't jugde a people on their prophets (unlike you), and I do not hail other peoples misfortune (unlike you), we western people cherrish democarcy,and hails free speech (unlike you). Wake up!  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:07 by Juan Pablo Almeyda @62.252.32.12 : mohammed pics
just to reply to danish pasties
mate... stop picking ur nose and think for once in ur life...
why would 2000 jew workers in the WTC not be killed after 9/11, because it was planned by american CIA, bush, and mosad in israel, cowrkingwith mister ben ladin who lives in a cave  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:08 by vibrani : Danish
you can't make people wake up if they don't want to. It's like you're in one world and they're in another - two different dimensions that can't see each other fully. They have to WANT to change - and I think change in some areas scares the shit out of them. In other ways, like using American technology or products, they aren't so afraid. They are selective. If they can use it for themselves and make a profit from it, they will. Then they'll turn their back on you and criticize you for other things as if they don't accept anything of your culture. Baloney. It's calculated by the few and the many are ignorant, educated in madrasses and don't know anything but what their imam tells them to believe. Don't ask, don't question, don't do anything but what you're told.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:12 by Juan Pablo Almeyda @62.252.32.12 : RE: vibrani
vibrani, people differ, u can never measure people on a scale, u can never measure them in ur head, u cant even measure them in rickter's gauge.. so i believe u hav extremists but i know that islam, means peace in the arabic language, and their book told them not to attack anyone, its exactly like christianity, especially people who are unarmed and not attacking  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:12 by vibrani : Islam means submission
to Allah, Juan. Saalaam means peace. Get with the program. Ever read the Koran? I have and it does tell people to attack certain people, like Jews, infidels. It's full of mixed messages, just like other religions.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:13 by danish @86.52.46.251 : Juan
Well woopdi doo Juan...I have studied Islam sa well, and you're right that it's basically the same God. But there's where the simmilaritys end. The extremists in the ME, are fra worse than the inbreed rednecks in rhe US. And your naive beliefs are simply stupid, and ignorant. Everybody are able to see that the muslim elite are trying to take control of the western presse. Well over my dead body!  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:16 by vibrani : NO
you're wrong, Juan. Saalam means peace. I slam is not exactly the same, is it?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:18 by vibrani : You're so ignorant Juan
you don't know what you're talking about.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:23 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : vibrani
yes Islam is the word cut out of salam 'peace'.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:24 by Juan Pablo Almeyda @62.252.32.12 : vibrani
"qura'an" mr vibrani doesnt tell people to attack except the infidels.. are u or are u not an infidel, look for the meaning of infidel then answer  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:25 by vibrani : And
doesn't it mean submission to Allah, as so many Muslims have often said? It is CUT OUT of salaam...  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:25 by danish @86.52.46.251 : Juan
All right Juan. We've all figured out that you belong on the extreme left-wing by now. No-body else believes that the CIA and Bush was behind the WTC bombing... So I guess that you are also one of these soft idiots, taht thinks that the muslims are the victims of everything that's wrong in this world.... It's the soft-core mentality of your kind, that has allowed the muslims to infiltrate our comunity doing the last fre years.
But allow me to say the following to the muslims living in europe:
We're sorry that we offered you hospitality, when you were abandoning your own country.
We're sorry that we gave you freedom of speech.
We're sorry, that we gave you freedom of religion.
We're sorry that more than 50% of you refuse to get a job, and insists to live of social benefits.
Hopefully the boycot means that you'll leave Europe for home!  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:27 by vibrani : I pose the question
then if it is a religion of peace (and I know there are Muslims who do live like that), why is it that so many are intent on proving otherwise? Shaheeds aren't peaceful. It goes against Islam, but there is this extreme Islam that has taken over and speaks for all of you. If you don't like it, then speak out and show differently. That's why I sent you Palazzi's articles. So far, there are few peaceful Muslim voices being heard.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:28 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : danish
guys who everis behind that bombing non supports it not ISLAM pr any other relegion.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:30 by Juan Pablo Almeyda @62.252.32.12 : re danish
what freedom of speach??? do u know why JFK was assasinated??? do u know why sooo many ploitical figures were taken out??? its because of the freedom of speach!
and also what hospitality ur danish government who were living on cows, wer looking for other ways of income,
also mr danish if we go back in history who made law, mathematics etc... well these both were made in the land of mesopotamia present iraq so u cant say we giv u hospitality u didnt learn to live away from cows unless ur people started opening their minds and going to learn the way of the arabs and the muslims  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:31 by danish @86.52.46.251 : Vibrani
Thanks Vibrani... That's the most intelligent thing I has heard so far today... Why are the muslims crying about these cartoons, yet thet NEVER demostrate when an idiot.suicide-bomber is blowing up a bus with women and children!  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:32 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : vibrani
shaheeds are what u call in american movies the hero who dies for his caus ...love or country ............in ISLAM the one who sacrefices his life for his country or GOD is a shaheed so its symply am martyre . a noble hero who died coz he stood by his beleafs......  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:33 by vibrani : Thank you, Danish
my point exactly. On the other extreme, they are throwing parties celebrating the deaths and encouraging more. A sane Muslim, who has control over him or herself, would be able to discuss these cartoons intelligently and peacefully, and be a LIVING example of peace that Islam proclaims itself to be. Then maybe others would respect them.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:34 by danish @86.52.46.251 : Juan
And how has these great mesopotamians evoloped since??? Excactly, they haven't, cause they still live in the middleages. Prove me wrong!  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:35 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : ffs
danish dont act da fool u know when one bombes him self in iraq or palastine he kills soliders ffs how will women and children go to iraq otherwise usend them to die to make us look like terorists and about the bombings of 9/11 londen and sharm el shiek they are from global terorists  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:35 by vibrani : Shaykoon
Yes, I know what a real shaheed is, and that's what I was talking about. And I think it's bullshit and excuses to murder anyone who isn't like you and use the excuse that it's for God or country. God would NEVER ask for that. That is why I know most people have no clue what God is.

Martyrdom is a mental illness in my opinion, a product of a very dysfunctional belief of one's self and life.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:38 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : vibrani
u dont mok the dearest thing that we all stand for and then expect peace u are not talking to fools here  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:38 by vibrani : Juan
You're not reading closely what I've already written. I said that suicide in itself is against Islam. BUT Islam is twisting that to make it okay if you kill others and yourself (and then you get a super pass to heaven with all these virgins lol) if you do it for God. It's sick.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:40 by vibrani : Juan
it's a choice - you can choose to live peacefully or violently. You can choose to be your own guru or follow someone else. You can choose to eat healthy food or junk food. That's why the West is so great - we know we have choices and can choose for ourselves.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:40 by danish @86.52.46.251 : Shit
Shaykoon... You're are the biggest hypocrite in the whole world!
You defend the boycots of the entire danish people, because of the cartoons printed by a free newspaper (as if you know what that is!). Yet you claim that the WTC-bombings were not commited bt the muslim-worls, but by individuals... I puke!  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:41 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : vibrani
yes GOD does notwant death of inocents but when u kill hundreds of peacfull ppl and bomb thier homes and when they defend thier selves .. u call them terorists then y did u fight the britsh long ago ....? where u terorists by then  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:43 by vibrani : You must be
a Muslim, too, Juan. You can try to justify abuse and terror to fit your religion. Sorry.....doesn't work. Yes, as I said several times already, there are many interpretations. Why follow any of them?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:45 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : what
yes ISLAM never encorage killing inocents as 9/11 + if u post pics of our Prophet then thnk thats freedon .... now we tell u no that offended us .....u say so what thats freedom so as civilized as we are we will not buy any of ur products till u apologize or just keep losing till u fall down.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:45 by vibrani : If that person died
then you might never know they're real intent. Just as well. It doesn't seem to matter.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:46 by vibrani : Gotta go now
bye.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 04:47 by danish @86.52.46.251 : Juan
You've just proved me right, you fucking idiot!!!!
These cartoons were drawed by 12 differant men (yes, there was 12 differant de´rawings). And no one of them has died yet!
You stupid fool. Have you even seen these cartoons, an do you know why they were printed in the first place? Or you just trying to get som attention to you idiot.beliefs?  



4 Feb 2006 @ 04:51 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : GOD's Fury
danish u llok like a nazi ur even worse than hitler u just think ur better but u aint may GOD settle the score bet. us tommorow if not then when denmark is beeing destroyed by natural disaster dont say thats just a disaster know that GOD will reply ....then we will............out \bye  


4 Feb 2006 @ 06:43 by vibrani : All I can say is
thank you for showing the people who come here the Muslim way of rationalizing themselves and their actions. Shaykhoon, I sent you a document and you didn't discuss it at all. You avoided answering direct questions about several things and just expect that all your yelling and insult flinging will be enough to sway us to your way of thinking, scare us, or that we have to accept it or die through some God-sent disaster or whatever. What about the 1,000 people missing from the ferry boat accident? Maybe that's God's way of punishing Muslims? How childish, how ignorant, inflexible, how unable to live peacefully in the world today. Why should anyone believe Islam means peace?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 07:03 by vibrani : Those wild Wahhabi women
A new sex in the city - Muslim/Saudi Arabian style?[link]  


4 Feb 2006 @ 08:08 by Left @219.83.18.102 : Peace
I think that the Danes probably just dont understand that insulting Muhammad is a huge deal. They probably think it's just like making cartoons of the pope and Jesus. I mean, Muhammad is not the Muslim's god after all. But I also think that the paper should just apologize, if nothing just for the sake of diplomacy, and to say that they didnt mean to hurt anybody. Apologizing doesn't have to be about giving up the right of free speech. It's just to make sure that nobody gets their feelings hurt. So what's the harm in that?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 08:55 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : To Shaykhoon
Rofl this guy is an idiot!!! Look her son, FUCK MOHAMED (PISS be upon him), a fake prophet that built a religion based on SEX and SLAVERY OF WOMEN, not to mention the BULLSHIT ideas that he built this reiligion on.
There are 1 billion muslims now ....as far as i'm concerned, 1 billion people are going to HELL, islam is simply FAKE get it? FAKEEEE, how many times do i have to say this Jesus said that there will be no prophets after him and tghey 1 does come he is FAKE.
Btw are you saying muslim women are not slaves?! ROFLLL!!! For crying out loud you make them cover there WHOLE FUCKING UGLY BODY for nothing, they are too ugly to look attt !!!!!! not to mentiom the genital mutilation thing, you force them not to have sex, EVER ! WTF man women are born with sexual needs JUST LIKE MEN, YOU DIDN'T KNOW THIS BEFORE DID YOU? LOL.
Btw you're saying that the U.S Britian Russia France DEnmark Germany Italy China and Israel cannot defeat a few perverted countries? I mean PLEASE, if denmark goes to war ALONE it can WHIPE OUT the whole islamic world ! Soon muslims will all be back to poverty again, once there oil runs out (estimated 60-100 years) they will e back on the streets like any other muslim country.
Btw just like they told , do you think the U.S will alow you to stop giving them oil? They simply do to you or saudi arabia what they did in iraq, which to america was a piece of cake rofl.
God Bless America for controlling these ugly pigs :)  



4 Feb 2006 @ 10:53 by Faidros @217.208.25.51 : To IslamIsDying
The case with you being "worshiped" in the US is something that says more about the americans than anything else. In my eyes religous fanatics are a wierd bunch of people - the US christianity not the least.

If you are such a christian - what has become of the "turning the other cheek" or "love your neighbourg...". I dont think your lord ever mentioned anything about people being "pigs" or the "shit of humanity".

You say you are a christian but you surely dont behave like one. Until you do or get civilised in some other way I suggest you count me out before you state that "Im like you - I belive in the same tings that you do".  



4 Feb 2006 @ 11:42 by jazzolog : Vibrani Toe To Toe
Here is classic Nora in a battle worthy of her armor. Sometimes you're a real inspiration, lady.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 13:15 by shinan @202.1.193.14 : denmark
These are cases which are not avoidable.We all do have freedom of expression but i guess this has gone beyong the point.We muslims cant' tolerate these things.I ask the international community to make them come to justice.Islam is a much more respectful religion than what you non-moslim thinks.

So let them face justice and let them get the punishment.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 15:02 by vibrani : hmmm
for pretending to be such tough guys, you sure must be fragile, being so unable to tolerate cartoons. Islam respectful? To whom? How? You think you're being an example of that?  


4 Feb 2006 @ 16:40 by Lisa @83.249.48.236 : Come on, get over it!
Look guys! What's the big deal here? It's not like life doesn't go on after this. And it's not the first time in world history, that people have insulted each other and each others religion. And guess what, life goes on. I think the whole thing is just ridiculous and pathetic. I mean, welcome to the modern world, people do not always agree with you. The thing is that all the muslims I have ever met, and had a discussion with, is just as narrowminded as everybody else, if not more. It's really their way or the highway. Some of my muslim friends actually feel sorry for me, because of the way I choose to lead my life. Come on, I don't need your pity, I'm not suffering and I am not going to hell, because I don't believe there is a hell. That is an invention of people, I truly believe that. On the other hand, if these people think that they need religion (and that goes for any religion)to be happy, then go ahead. I'm not gonna stop you. I don't even care, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't try to force it down my throat. I don't force my ideas down your throat so just leave me alone, and get on with your life. It's not that big a deal!!!
And to shinan: If islam is such a respectful religion, why can't you respect that not everybody belive in it? And if you feel better to say that punishment is coming to us... fine. Just leave it to God, and get on with your life, baby!
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not even worried...  



4 Feb 2006 @ 17:01 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : for all
I CANNOT BELEAVE THAT U REALLY THINK U ARE THE ONES ARE RIGHT HERE U INSULT US AND THEN SAY SO WHAT THATS FREEDOM FREEDOM IS WHEN U INSULT UR SELVES AND THEN LAUGH U WHO EVER CALLED ISLAMIS.... U ARE THE EXACT KIND OF FOOLISHNESS IGNORENSE AND STUPIDITY U DONT KNOW NOTH ABOUT OUR RELEGION AND YET U TALK.... WHO BASED THER LIVES ON SEX R U U SEND NAKED WQOMEN ALL OVER THE STREETS U RAPE CHILDREN AND YET U SAY WE ARE WRONG .......LISA THANX FOR UR OPINION BUT THAT OFFENDS US FREEDOM DOES NOT MEEN TO URT OTHER PPL BUT TO SAY WHAT U WANT IN A WAY THAT DOES NOT URT ANY OONE AND NO WORLD CANNOT GO ON UNLESS THE PRESS APOLOGIZE FOR THE WAY THEY EXPRESSED THIER OPINION....AND VIBRANI IF U READ WHAT I HAVE SAID I ANSERED UR QUESTION THE THING U SENT ME IS TOTALY MADE FROM A TRATOR WHO IS GETTING PAID OR EXPECTS TO GET PAID ....AND ABOUT THE SINKING BOAT WELL I DONT KNOW WE MAY NEVER KNOW BUT I DONT THINK IT WAS god'S PUNISHMENT TO US OR SOMTH. ......FFS IF U HURT SOME ONE AND U CALL IT FREEDOM THEN U KNOW NOTH. ABOUT FREEDOM ....  


4 Feb 2006 @ 17:09 by vibrani : I HARDLY THINK SO!
With a doctorate in Islamic sciences from the Institute for Islamic Studies and Research in Naples (by authorization of the former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia), and ijazzah (authorization to teach) both Koranic exegesis and Islamic law from the prestigious University of al-Azhar as-Sharif in Cairo, Palazzi backs his somewhat surprising positions with citations from the Koran and traditional Muslim sources.

I have tried to be respectful towards you, but you don't accept that. I have tried to have discussions with you, but you obviously are so confused in your head that you can't have one with any intelligence. You have been successfully brainwashed by your twisted religion to the point that you have no more brain of your own left, and you have no interest in learning what's really true.

You should have such a position and knowledge as Palazzi. You have proven yourself to be a fool, and not at all interested in peaceful solutions and not in your own religion. You are the perfect example of the sickness in Islamic society that is spreading. If anyone else wants to waste their time with you, I leave it to them. I'm finished.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 17:17 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : what??? peace u know noth about peace...
peacfull solution.... who is talking u are the ones attacking us out of racism every where u think u are in iraq for freedom or in afganistan for ben laden u didnt get this ben laden coz u never cared to u are battleing for israels sake trying to eliminate us and u call the one who kills women and children and unarmed ppl peacful ....on the other side the one who is stugeliung against invasion and occupation of israel to palastine a terorist .... u absulutly dont know noth in ur life for beleaving bushes lies and calling the patriots terorists i guess we have the to let u kill us and take our lands to be good ppl .....well no u attack we defend until we push u back out of our lands  


4 Feb 2006 @ 17:20 by The don @203.98.91.57 : Please respect other religion
whe it came related with the religion there was no such things funny. there because that what you believe. the when you make funny on some religion that equal you paly with what people believe. where people already believe in one religion. they will follow the rule and also gonna protect when other people insult them. so please never ever make fun of muslim. because we believe and also attach on holly qur'an you can't make a figure of prophet of Muhammad That was a rule. and every moslem should follow so please don't make it simple as freedom. you should respect what other believe......  


4 Feb 2006 @ 17:24 by vibrani : One of the things I've learned
is that a real spiritual leader has a sense of humor, can laugh at themselves, too. They sing, dance, and love life, understand the joy that is God. That leaves you and Mohammad out of the running. You just don't get God at all.

And don, fuck you and your double standards.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 17:28 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : ohhhh
so we make a fool out of our selves to be funy ...of u can do that to normal muslims it will be jokeing that can be accepted but to the GREAT Prophet nooooooooooooooooooooo we dont accept it .....now ur the ons trying to force us in to ur beiefe making fool of every dear and Honorable thing in our life......  


4 Feb 2006 @ 17:31 by SHAYKHOON @62.135.96.186 : EVEN
even the pope in fatekan asked denmark to act respectfully ...  


4 Feb 2006 @ 18:01 by bushman : Again:
Muslim laws only apply to those that choose to be muslims. Laws, I might add, that were writen by uncivalized barbarians. It's the 21st century, some of us what to explore Mars and space. And we have that chance, but nooo, 1/2 the people in the world today, are stuck in the midle ages. The midle east is 500 years away from most advacments, if any of them had rockets, they wouldn't be using them to go to space, they would use them to blow people up. The muslim world has squandered 10,000 years of existance, all in the name of thier god. Put down your guns/egos/pride, and spend your time doing peacefull work. Show the rest of the world that you are a becon of light and love. Or watch your lands become contaminated and unuseable for anything but oil production. We can't help you stop them (your true enemies), if all your going to do is blow people up and shoot at them and make threats. Muslim law is not world law, basic human rights, is world law now. Seriously its time that the muslim world awakens as the light they were ment to be. Put down your guns, and show us.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 18:07 by IslamIsDying @212.33.117.227 : shaykhoon
Dude listen, i'm sure your ignoring my other comments but here i go again.
You say islam is a strong religion?? FOR FUCKS SAKE you made the WHOLE FUCKING WORLD HATE MUSLIMS BECAUSE OF A PICTURE !! A PICTURREEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it's not even a REAL RELIGION, for the 10000000th time IT IS FAKEEEEEEEEEEE and for the 10000th time also jesus said that if a prophet comes after him he is FAKE. JESUS CHRIST THESE GUYS ARE IDIOTS !
Your ugly fake prophet made a religion of hatred, sex, slavery, and aggression, the likes os muslims aren't needed in this world, and one day im 10000% sure the chrisitna world will that it's time to put you guys to a limit. almost 90% of the worlds problems are made by islam.
I just want to know, how dare you and mohamed (PISS be upon him) make women wear the ugly hijab and make them cover their bodies and do genital mutilations (which is 100% SLAVERY) when your prophet fucked a women each night and married 30 wives? YOU FUCKING TELL ME WHAT KIND OF RELIGION IS THIS?!!? Should be called SEXLAM  



4 Feb 2006 @ 18:16 by ming : IslamIsDying
IslamIsDying, if you're trying to demonstrate that Christians are uncivilized nut cases as well, you're succeeding marvelously. I'm not a Christian, but I do know enough to notice you didn't grasp the first thing about it.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 18:27 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.44 : .....
for bushman we pushed the worl forward u idiot we got euorop out of its dark ages and for the other fool ISLAM is not fake and juses said about he prophet comin after him + u invented raping as u are the ones who live for sex inslaved women by making her go naked every where for ur own poisond pleasure we protected women and dressed her up and never allowed men to abuse her100% is to protect ppl from been abusd then u may also see that what euorop invnted chiled rape and nudism i guess this is what u call not slavery this is the heart of slavry to force women to undress every where for money...+ the prophet was the Greatest creature ever lived when he marrid he married for orders from god except 2 times it was for him self (read more to know why where the orders ) ur ignorance filles u with racism i ont understand and dont beleave it can exist 90% of world problkems .,...how about aides u did that for example by making sex without limits we protected the world from such thing .....may GOD have mercy on on the ones infected  


4 Feb 2006 @ 19:12 by bushman : That , Shaykhoon
was in the past, you live in the past, we are in the "now", the world has changed for the better, what you going to do in the "now", knowing what the rest of the world knows, "now". Those intellegent people in your past, did great things, but you do those people no justice in the "now". You say we make our women do this and that, but in fact our women choose to do what they do on thier own, sure some are forced, and we have laws to deal with that. We don't stone our women for it. We don't cut off peoples limbs for it. Thats something only barbarians do. Whatever good things your past intelecuals did was for "not", seeing how you act/behave today/in the "now". You only speak and see the bad things others have done and then seek revenge for it. But even in our free world, you have the right to be uncivilized and have barbaric thinking. Here in America we have the right to be stupid if we so choose. But we arnt going to kill them for it, we arnt going to cut off a finger or a hand or stone you, for being you.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 19:27 by glyn hughes @62.255.0.4 : denmark
where were all these muslim rioters when europe was aiding pakistan after the earthquake? some have short memorys  


4 Feb 2006 @ 20:13 by jazzolog : For Those Struggling In Another Language
thank you for continuing to try communication here. I am a Christian, and while I don't spend a---err---hell of a lot of time at this site, you're welcome to have at me with stones and arrows. I'll reply as I catch up. However, it would be good to discuss a world problem, like cartooning, without a lot of religious baggage.

(Ultimately, of course, religion is not baggage but salvation...I know.)  



4 Feb 2006 @ 20:21 by Mina Guirguis @69.241.60.66 : Mohamed"greatest human ever"r u kidding
Are you kidding me? on what basses do you decide that MOhamed is the greatest ever human being? because he commanded armies and literally killed with his own hands....or are you going to say that it was in self defense. Is he great because he married multiple women...well that sounds quite like a usual hungary man for women anyway...what makes him great! what makes him better than Alexander the great...though I personally think that Alexander was much more sophisticated than Mohammed. Is he great beacuse he married a 12 year old girl..."I mean raped,"....is he great because in his biography, he ordered the killing of a woman who got pregnant out of wedlock? is he great because he behaved usually in a "normal," "expected," human behavior....? why is he great? I don't understand. Muslims are born in a sheltered societies were no one can question Islam or question its validity and they tell you since you are 2 years old that Islam and Mohammed is the greatest thing ever happened and then you expect it to be the truth, so you keep repeating it to your self and others. Just past November, a huge crowd of muslims attacked churches in Alexandria Egypt and they burnt the bible in the streets....NO ONE of the fellow 70 mil. Egyptians opened their mouth and condemend the incident or went in the streets demonstrating againest the act....supposedly, muslims believe in the bible to be the word of god....! what a joke. It is no doubt that there is a series illness with the collective muslims mind...wheather that is connected to the Quraan and what it preaches, I don't know...I could go far with this...but this is not the time. I belive Muslim societies should experience being quesitoned and their religion being examined whether they lke it or not...there is no room to baby sit couple of millions who cry for weeks because some dudes in a country couple of thousand miles away published a cartoon....I mean guys get a life.....what a pathetique crowd. I immigrated to America 12 years ago and the first day I arrived and was watching TV, I saw a program after the other about the validity of the bible from science and historical point of view...and people from religious background appear on TV and defend and others from scientific or history back grounds question and scrutinize.....did people go in the streets and burnt flags or threatened to kill and burn....even christians from the middle east who immigrated to America....don't do that.....or at least havent heard of any. Muslims are the only group today that produce such an attitude. What I am saying is, I am not expecting people to not to be angry....sure, you should get angry. Also, christians in the west do get angry or unhappy when they see movies depecting Jesus from a different point of view other than the usual...etc......but what I am talking about is the revertion to violence so fast every time they don't like something. If your prophit is really great...then relax and enjoy the ride with him in your life....and be sure than a dutch dudes cartoons should threaten his greatness........but I think you also don't believe he is that great...that's why youhave to force your insecurities and project them onto the masses.....you feel that you have to force your feelings and points of views because they are weak enough to stand alone and be convincing. Listen muslims, you are breaking all the bridges with this world as a whole a day after the other......sit down, relax...and think a little bit...use your mind just for once and look at the bigger picture and look how are most muslim societies nowadays.....it is a sad state. If I were you, I will be so embarressed. I don't even know how can you manage to wake up in the morning and manage to go by your day. It is Sad.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 20:21 by salam @82.198.3.154 : Mr. IslamsDying
Islamsdying, you have great hate to Islam, ur cheap vocab shows that. why? if a small groups is behaving in a wrong way somewhere in the world, this does not give you the right to insult prophet mohammad, Islam and Hijab in such a way. the level of Hekd and hate does not reflect that you are a real christian or even you beleive in God. Any way ur unbalanced, insane way of insulting islam is of no value based on your personlaitity. but i want to tell you that all the world have seen how mohammad el dora was killed by Israeli soldiers, he was fighting israeli, killig christians or doing sex,? ? ? all the world also have seen the 3 days old girl nour el3abed (1996- Lebanon) killed after an Israeli bomb, her head was cut. you consider those murders defensive acts becuase moslims are not civilized!!!!!! aha then alla yeshfeek min he2dak  


4 Feb 2006 @ 20:28 by fatima @217.219.53.254 : shamfull
A Newspaper in Denmark made a competition to draw a sketch of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). They received 100s of sketches & the news paper published 12 sketches in their publication for weeks in which they have shown Prophet wearing missiles and bombs and shown his sketches in bad positions. Muslims and Muslim organizations of Denmark had protested against this. But the government is defending the Newspaper and not even ready to hear plea of the local Muslims leaders.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 20:37 by Mina Guriguis @69.241.60.66 : To this Shaykhoon
I don't know what are you talking about......Did you ever know or read about homosexuality among gulf arab men....or bedouins in the desert or Egyptian deserts? Have you read that the head of the bedouin tribes would have a little male child for his pleasure? Do you not know about gulf arab men marrying 15 and 14 yr old girls who they bring from poor muslim countries? Are you blind or acting stupid? that is one. The second concerning Mr. MOhammed. You said that he married from orders from god.....you must be fucking kidding me.......so tomorrow I am going to say that god ordered me to marry 20 women. There is something seriosuly wrong with your arguments and a lot of your fellow muslims who I listened to as well. Granted that Mohammed supposedly had a special reltionship with what you call god......although some historic accounts claim that he suffered from mental illness...and I don't mean that as an offense, but this was 1400 years ago...and people didn't know mental illnesses. But anyway, imagine he was ordered by god, why should he marry a 12 year old girl? that is a little bit sick. He might have had a good impact on a tribal society liek the societies he came from in the arabia....since they were living a pretty uncivilized life....but he and his words brought uncivilized ideaology to a more civiized societies, like the Egyptians before the arab invasion, or like Iraq before the arab conqour, or the other nations outside arabia. Be more rationale...and have just a little courage. I doubt you can. i doubt you have the power to think freely and examine what you really believe in.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 20:57 by Paul @66.214.96.60 : Death to all fanatics! :)
I know I'm jumping in here way too late. But it's quite simple really. Continue publishing the pictures. Better still, have everyone start doing it, everywhere. Let a million mohammed pictures flourish. Diversify! It's about time that we all start sticking to our principles of being free. Free against any sort of censorship. I could care less what all the muslims think. if they don't like the picutre, DON'T FUCKING LOOK AT THEM!!! That's YOUR religion, not mine. They can all go to hell. And if for one moment, you think this is because I am of another faith.. NO. Same goes for any faith, religion, group or person who trys to do the same. As far as I am concerned any angry reaction from any group on any image is INSANITY, and should be treated as such. To respect that, is to respect someone with a gun to my head. Maybe, just maybe, in a life and death situation I will SAY what I have to do to survive, but genuine respect will NEVER COME. I am at a point that the whole muslim world can go kiss my ass. And yes, I deeply dislike Christian fundamentalism too, as well as Bush and American foriegn policy as well. The whole damn thing is insanity and I want no part of it.

Robert Anton Wilson is right, we are living on the planet of the apes!!  



4 Feb 2006 @ 21:16 by terrorist @146.186.210.40 : ..
go to the Hell idiots.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 22:51 by vibrani : Muslims
want to destroy modern life only because they're afraid we will prove their religion to be wrong. Muslim believe that anybody who fights Muslims is an enemy of Islam, and then it is only right that they be killed.

Go to CNN.com and see the new video of a new French documentary "Suicide Killers" on female suicide bombers. Another way Muslims are destroying women. This is a way women can feel equal to Muslim men! Very screwed up. They're actually convincing these women that God has announced that they will be the prettiest virgin in heaven after they die. They only live for this massive illusion, not for life on earth, so they don't give a shit about anything here. All these fake promises of rewards in heaven drive extremists to their terrorist activities and suicide. If they all hate life here on earth, why would they have a problem getting a little help over to the other side so innocent people don't have to die with them? The joke will be on them when they get to the other side, anyway.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 23:05 by Matt @69.122.71.16 : What Ever
LEt the Danish citizens of muslum faith boycott what ever they want. But when other nations concern themselves with a domestic problem then thats BS. No nation should freak out when something simple happens like this. This is a Danish problem of culture. And should not be on the world scale. Freedom shuld be free which means artisitic expression. Anyhow all will be fine in the end.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 23:06 by martin @62.252.224.13 : islam

If you believe in Islam good for you I don't so why should I give a shit about mohammed? he’s not my god (Muslims act like he's their god) I’m sick of having Islamic bullshit rammed in my face day in day out I don’t think I know the quran is wrong that is my opinion and is based on historical and scientific fact not some mumbo jumbo mysticism.  



4 Feb 2006 @ 23:09 by martin @62.252.224.13 : opps that reads wrong
If you believe in Islam good for you I don't so why should I give a shit about mohammed? he’s not my god (Muslims act like he's their god) I’m sick of having Islamic bullshit rammed in my face day in day out. I know the quran is wrong. and is notbased on historical and scientific fact but on mumbo jumbo mysticism.  


4 Feb 2006 @ 23:45 by dian @71.112.73.234 : expensive free speech
prophet moh is my role model.his teaching was primarily about living peace and harmony with the rest of the world. so to depict him as a terrorist is deeply distressing. if the caricature was osama bin laden wearing turban and looks like a bomb, i gonna love it  


4 Feb 2006 @ 23:52 by siti @71.112.73.234 : islam is the true religion
u dont have to debate about this. islam is the true and perfect religion. islam is the latest religion to improve all other religion. so God only accept islam.

YOU FUCCKING MORON. JUST WAIT THE JUDGEMENT DAY !  



4 Feb 2006 @ 23:55 by nazlı gül @85.99.80.33 : for our children
I am so unhappy now. coz I know going to came finish of word like this event.I want to look at this calicature. but i want to promise for my daughater better word.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 00:20 by Infinitynexus @82.192.160.50 : Is any religion true?..
Posted by Siti: "u dont have to debate about this. islam is the true and perfect religion. islam is the latest religion to improve all other religion. so God only accept islam.

YOU FUCCKING MORON. JUST WAIT THE JUDGEMENT DAY !"

Well.. what makes it perfect?.. what makes it true?.. i only see religions as a GUIDE book.. not a rulebook.. everyone percieves everything differently.

Oh and ye, im quite looking forward to judgement day.. ill be happy to known that were all going to extint, since we have no idea how to live in peace or harmony, thus we are not a sustainable species..  



5 Feb 2006 @ 00:35 by calvin @69.112.71.220 : if Islam is the perfect religion...
How come they just can't stop blowing up everyone that doesnt agree with there toughts. I can't remember hearing about catholics ot the like going around shouting JIHAD and destroying everything in itsd path. Why can't we just get along !  


5 Feb 2006 @ 00:40 by vibrani : LOL
the only true religion to improve other religions?! hahahahahaha How perverted that is. Believe in Islam, or else! hahahahaha NEVER!

Catholics - well, remember the INQUISITION? The Crusades? There is not one religion that hasn't used God for an excuse to murder those not of their religion.

Can't people get beyond the need to have religion?

You know how children are when they don't get their way? They can throw tantrums, become bullies and make threats, even beat up their parents if their parents don't put them in line, firmly. The actions of Muslims show they are little brats who don't know how to behave.  



5 Feb 2006 @ 01:26 by A DANE @80.164.65.4 : WAR AND DEATH
i have respect for the muslim, the christian and the other religions, but i have to respect for those lil kids in the middle east that like to be on tv so they look for reasons to make trouble. Those drawings might be offensive to some it´s your right to be offended, but those drawings wasen´t made by Denmark they were made by a paper, and dose not speak for Denmark, and those people yelling for bombnings are just insane and will find any reason to jump around like mentals. I got muslim friends before the drawings and i still have em after this, as i said i respect ur religion what ever you belive in it´s your right but i don´t belive in any of them and i NEVER will. And to the people daming the muslims for what is going on is wrong too, those peopledose not speak for the muslim religion but they speak for war and death and that is what they worship, those people are the lowest type of being this planet spit out and they will never be anymore till they gather there mind and act like humans.
Denmark will never apoligize when we done nothing wrong and to u people jumping, burning our flag and yelling for war and death FUCK YOU ALL  



5 Feb 2006 @ 02:58 by hamza @196.206.9.40 : No more insultes for any religion.
I’m a Moroccan MUSLIM, and i’m so glad of that.
I know that is my religion is the trut religion in the world, but i don’t have to oblige people in the world to belive that. What we hope like Muslim or juste like people hwo live in this earth is to be respected and to respect our religion, our belives; like all muslims people do, i belive in one thing that any arabian newspeper insult « Jesus-Christ » or « The holy Mary ». And i’m so sure they will never do juste because they knew some thing about the history and they respect the belives of the others, not like the speaker of « Jyllands-Posten » said we don’t knew that will touch muslims like that, i think a jurnalist must be something more clevar than taht, i don’t belive this is the trut, i think it’s a war against the Muslims in all the World .
What we hope like what i said is have some respect for us and for our religion and belives, and i think if the danmarkian people are realy like what they said clevar and civilist and cultured will let the Muslim live their lives ..
If you won’t people insult your GOD and your belives don’t insult their belives…  



5 Feb 2006 @ 04:25 by Arkady @203.59.198.116 : Religion
It's times like these I thank God i'm an aethiest :D  


5 Feb 2006 @ 04:52 by vibrani : LOL
amen to that, Arkady.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 07:31 by Traveller @84.73.140.67 : Understanding & Respectful
For some people on this board: What will you do, sitting in a bar, if somebody you dont know call you for example "guy" or "homosexual" without any reason?

For a western, the pictures are quiet normal cartoons. For muslim believers it can not be tolarete. But there are much more bad words, comments & pictures here and in the internet, which make me sad and it is just a shame for the western world. For the arabic world, mostly poor and living in hard condition is religion so import (my personal eyes - too important, like also some other religions). And then the western world is coming with this arrogant behaviour (money is commanding, military power, just our will is the way...) give the muslim part no space to react in a proud way. Be more Respectful to others!  



5 Feb 2006 @ 08:14 by Fred (albanian) @207.69.139.139 : muhammed cartoon
So Danes you have offended (so called prophet) muhammed. What's the big fucking deal on that? How many times have christians and jews been offended by muslims. For arabs as thick as they are they still could have been riding on camel backs. And also Denmard bares some of the responsibility , apparently they have gotten sick of muslims (at least I hope so) but until recently EU has called they immigration to Europe an CULTURAL ENRICHMENT HAHAHA. Same goes out to brits and french. For London subway bombings? YOU ACCEPTED THE EVIL YOURSELF BLAME NOONE ELSE. And the same thing for french rioters  


5 Feb 2006 @ 08:27 by vibrani : Muslims have a HUGE problem
they can't cope with any little thing that challenges their rigid beliefs. Keep going, that tight string of resistence will snap.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 08:29 by Fred (albanian) @207.69.139.139 : Arkady
Arkady wrote: It's times like these I thank God I am an atheist. But if you are an atheist why do you thank God since you don't believe on him?  


5 Feb 2006 @ 08:29 by vibrani : It's a joke Fred
hahaha That's what makes it funny. An athiest thanking God.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 10:40 by HUSSEIN @62.135.24.74 : TO Mina Guirguis
IT SEEMS IN UR WORDS THAT U ARE EGYPTIAN SO I THOUGHT U MIGHT BE WITH US IN THIS CASE CAUSE I'M EGYPTIAN MUSLIM AND WE LIVE IN EGYPT IN PEACE REALLY IN PEACE THE CHRISTIAN HERE ARE OUR BROTHERS AND FAMILY AND I DN'T THINK IF ANY PERSON IN EGYPT FALL IN THE STREET WE WILL ASK HIM FIRST IF HE IS MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN BEFORE WE HELPING HIM TO GET UP I HAVE MANY CHRISTIAN FRIENDS WE EAT IN EACH OTHER HOUSES WE SIMPLY LIVE TOGETHER, U ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN ALEXANDRIA , FIRST ASK URSELF THESE QUES WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE ABOUT THE PLAY THAT WAS TALKING BADLY ABOUT ISLAM DID U EVER HEARED ABOUT ANY EGYPTIAN ARTISTIC HURT THE CHRISTIAN OR SAYING ANY THING BAD ABOUT THEM NO SIR U CANT FIND ONE,SECOND QUESTION WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE ABOUT MAKING A CDS ABOUT THIS PLAY ? ALL WHAT HAPPEN WAS JUST BECAUSE THE ELECTION NOTHING MORE, AND NO ONE BURNT UR BOOK SIR BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN THE MOST OF THAT BOOK SIR,SIR ALL THE MOSQUES HERE DURING THIS TIME TALKED TO THE FEW PEOPLE WHOM TRYING MAKE THIS PROBLEM GROWTH ,BUT SIR WE WERE SHOCKED WE DIDN'T KNOW WHOM TO BELIEVE AND A FEW OF OUR CHRISTIAN BROTHERS DOING THIS BAD PLAY ABOUT US AND DURING THIS TIME ME AND MY CHRISTIAN FRIENDS WAS LAUGHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE IT WAS ONLY ABOUT WINING ELECTION BETWEEN SOME PEOPLE AND WHY I DIDN'T SAW U TALK ABOUT THE EGYPTIAN MOVIE (I LOVE CINEMA)WHICH WAS MAD BY CHRISTIANS WRITER, DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER WHICH WAS THE FIRST MOVIE TALKING ABOUT THE EGYPTIAN CHRISTIANS AND HOW WAS THE RESPOND CAME FROM THE CHRISTIANS TRYING TO STOP SHOWING THE MOVIE, MAKE A LAW CASE IN COURT FOR THE MOVIE AND THE EGYPTIANS POP ASKED THE ALL CHRISTIAN NOT TO SAW THAT MOVIE IS THAT THE freedom of expression WHICH U ARE TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT HAPPENED WHEN A CHRISTIAN WOMAN WANTS TO BECOME MUSLIM THE CHRISTIANS START THE VIOLENCE AND DESTROIED THE CARS , THE BUILDING IN THE STREET AND HIT THE POLICEMEN AND WHEN THE POLICEMEN CAUGHT SOME OF THIS PEOPLE THE CHRISTIANS START TALKING ABOUT THEY ARE MINORITY IN EGYPT AND THEY WANT USA TO HELP THEM IN EGYPT WHAT U CALL THAT SIR EVEN UR POP DECLARE HIS ANGR ABOUT HOW THE POLICEMEN CAUGHT THOSE CHRISTIAN WHOM WAS DESTROING EVERY THING BUT AS RESPECT FOR THE POP THE POLICEMEN SENT THESE PEOPLE FREE WITHOUT ANY CHARGE AND THEY EVEN GAVE THE CHURCH THIS WOMAN AFTER SHE DECLARE SHE IS MUSLIM NOW TO CONVINCE HER TO BACK TO CHRISTIAN AND NO BODY KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENED TO HER AFTER THE CHURCH TOOK HER UNTILL NOW WHAT U CALL ALL THAT SIR WHERE THE FREEDOM U TALK ABOUT IS THIS THE FREEDOM U WANT THE FREEDOM ON UR WAY, PLEASE SIR WHEN U TALK JUST SAY THE TRUTH,U TALKED ABOUT THE WOMEN OUR PROPHET (PBUH) MARIED SINCE U ARE EASTERN U KNOW HOW WE SENSITIVE ABOUT WOMEN AND ALL THE EASTERN WAS ALWAYS LIKE THAT SO THE ARABIANS AT THAT TIME WOUDN'T MARRY THE DIVORCED, WIDOWED AND EVEN THE OLDER WOMEN SO SIR WHEN THEY SAW OUR PROPHET MARRIED FROM THEM THEY KNEW IT'S OK AND THEY BECOME NOT THAT MUCH SENSITIVE AND THE TRUTH SIR IF OUR PROPHET DIDN'T MARRY THAT KIND OF WOMEN THAT TIME IT WAS GOING TO BE A PROBLEM UNTILL NOW THAT'S NOBODY GOING TO MARRY THEM AND IF U TALKING ABOUT FREEDOM AND HOW WE SHOULD RESPECT THE WOMEN WHY U DIDN'T MENTION THAT THE CHRISTIANS WHEN THEY MARRY IN EGYPT THEY CAN'T GET DIVORCED EVEN IF THEY HATE EACH OTHER BECAUSE THAT IS THE CHERSH LAW IS THIS FREEDOM MAKING PEOPLE DN'T LIKE EACH OTHER TO LIVE FOREVER TOGETHER IS THIS FREEDOM ANSWER ME PLEASE SIR, SO SIR PLEASE DN'T SAY ABOUT OUR PROPHET (a usual hungary man for women) PLEASE SIR BE GENTLE AND ABOUT THE 12 YRS WOMEN I DN'T KNOW IF SHE REALLY WAS 12 OR NOT I'M NOT THAT GOOD AS U TRYING TO FIND A WEAK POINTS IN UR POINT OF VIEW IN ISLAM BUT THIS WOMAN SIR ONE OF THE GRATEST WOMEN IN ISLAM BECAUSE SHE TAUGHT THE MUSLIMS WOMEN EVERYTHING ABOUT THEY RELIGIONES BECAUSE OUR PROPHET COULDN'T BECAUSE HE WAS VERY SHY SIR .. WHEN U TALKED ABOUT homosexuality I DIDN'T SAW U TALKING ABOUT ONE OF THE EGYPTIAN POP WHO WAS HAVING SEX WITH THE CHRISTIAN WOMEN IN THE CHERCH AND HE ALSO RECORD IT IN A MOVIE YEAH THE WHOLE THING IS THAT FREEDOM IS THAT WHAT U WANT TO HAPPEN IN THE WHOLE WORLD TAKE CARE WHAT U ARE WISHING FOR SIR FINALLY I'M SO SORRY THAT I MINTIONED ALL THIS THINGS ABOUT EGYPTIAN CHRISTANS BUT I HADE TO ANSWER U BECAUSE I REALLY LOVE MY CHRISTIANS FRIENDS THE EGYPTIANS AND THE FOREIGN MAY GOD FOGIVE U SIR FOR WHAT U MADE ME SAY . FINALLY I HOPE THE BEST FOR U AND IF U ARE FROM EGYPT I HOPE TO COME AND VISIT IT SOOOOON .. GODBYE SIR  


5 Feb 2006 @ 11:22 by Finnish @82.181.27.45 : IMAGE OF A BOMB IN A TURBAN
Dear Dian and others

First of all I want to say Im sorry if I hurt someone with my message, but these are my thoughts.

I think you Dian are getting to the point! These cartoons which were published shows how I and probably many others in western world think about muslims who are ready to kill innocent people in a word of Islam. Even if the cartoon shows prophet Muhammed as the person who is carrying a bomb, my feeling is that the deeper thought of the cartoon is a man who oe woman is ready to make a suicide bombing in a word of Muhammed and Islam.

I have tried everything not to have this image in my mind. But I'm a simple person like most of us, I dont know everything about Islam. But what I know, that every day I have to read from the news how suicide bombers have killed innocent men, women and children, Christians and Muslims. And those who are responsible of these attacks are saying that they are doing it for Muhammed and Allah and Islam.

My point is:
-WHO SHOULD WE(everybody in the world) BLAME ABOUT THIS IMAGE ABOUT ISLAM?
Osama Bin Laden and the suicide bombers? Danish people? Someone else?  



5 Feb 2006 @ 13:14 by Infinitynexus @82.192.160.50 : hm
Well, these cartoons does add a little flare in a burning fire that some muslims are already feeling.. Welcome to the Muslim Witch Hunt the year 2006.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 13:58 by Arthor Rowan @84.43.30.11 : If God can't take a joke
why did he create so many and why are so many of them posting here?  


5 Feb 2006 @ 14:35 by Mohammad @82.198.3.154 : Re: Finish
Dear Finnish

I am following the conversation going on and I did not want to interfere in a discusion where some people use hate instead of logic to analyze the case. But As a muslim I want to tell you that you have all the right to rise the question of who to blame, and we muslims do that also. I see that yes, Osama Bin Laden is directly responsible,the acts of his group gave a wrong bloody picture about Islam, and this picture is not ours. However, you non-muslims people are also responsible to differentiate between people who are acting in the name of religion and in reality they have no reight to represent it, and between innocent people who at the end they are being hurt from west and from Bin Laden and Zarkawi. the cartoons on western papers considered prophet mohammad (salat Allah wa salamoho 3alayhe wa 3ala ahleh) in the same level as Osama Bin Laden but we true muslims we consider Bin Laden the first enemy to prophet mohammad. We (muslims) are being killed by people as Bin Laden since hundreds of years but we know who is Mohammad. Note that some historical books that are percieved as islamic books do include false and bad stories about prophet mohammad, those books are made by people as BinLaden.  



5 Feb 2006 @ 17:48 by Amer Masarweh @80.90.160.162 : You're all crazy!
This page is so hateful.. i am a Christian Arab and i have lived close to Muslims my whole life, Muslims are NORMAL PEOPLE! just like you and me. And to the Racist jewish guy who tried to write some crap in here my Mother is a Christian from Jerusalem and they ALL and i do repeat ALL believe Israel is the biggest threat to the world. Muslims don't do what you said , you can’t generalize all Muslims are terrorists because a very very small group of them attacked you ! Terrorists also comprise of people from all religions and all countries, but ur just using that crap to offend Islam.

Israel Occupied Palestine back in 1948 and has killed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and is still killing up to our present day, so how can u criticize Palestinians for fighting to get their homeland back ? Even if they do it by the so called "Human Bombs", because that’s the only weapon they have! They don’t have the support of the U.S, they don’t get money and mass destruction weapons from the U.S, they don't own hundreds of nuclear heads! All of that said and u still calls Palestinians and Muslims terrorists?

All you people have been brain washed by stupid propaganda, wake up and smell the facts... Ur sitting in ur home safe and sound while we people live in fear for our lives each day... I live in Jordan which is a safe place at the moment but we share borders with Iraq and Palestine both of which have been destroyed by wars from the U.S and Israel, after all of that being said I want u people to think hard and try to define the word "Islamic Terrorist" again! If killing was done by U.S or Israeli Soldiers then it’s all right? If a person in Iraq or Palestine died while defending his Country and Honor then that is Terrorism?
I’ve got one word for you People... PROPAGANDA!!

Stop reading all these crappy articles.. In Islam it is forbidden to make drawings of the Prophet, and in my humble opinion I think that is 100% true and really respectful.. For hundreds of years not a single Muslim made a drawing of the prophet, and now a Danish news paper publishes insulting drawings of the prophet with a bomb in his hat? What’s the point of that? It only encourages more hate and more racism, I mean look at what it has done to this page!

My point is for us to find world peace we should stop classifying people based on their religion or their color or whatever.. Take Jordan my country for example; The Majority of the population is Muslims... the minor majority is Christians (mostly Arab Christians nor foreigners) and some other religions... We all live in peace and harmony and have the freedom of mind speech and the freedom to practice religion freely, that’s because we have respect for each other.. Respect not racism.

Amer Masarweh, Amman-Jordan  



5 Feb 2006 @ 17:56 by vibrani : You think Muslims are normal
and Israel is the greatest threat? Yeah, you're real credible spreading lies and hatred and then accusing others of doing that against Muslims. It isn't the Israelis going ape shit over some silly cartoons, burning embassies and calling to cut up Danes. Then you talk about peace and not racism when you're a blatant racist? Insane. All any person has to do is look at a map and see the areas occupied by Muslims and Arabs versus tiny Israel. Compare populations. We're not blind and we don't have to live by Islamic laws!  


5 Feb 2006 @ 18:20 by muslim @82.201.252.204 : mohammed cartoons
to all people of all religions,we,muslims,cant say any thing bad on other religions even between ourselves because god and our prophet teached us that we should respect other religions,god is capable of protecting the prophet, islam and muslims.and honestly i have ,with many other people,lost any particle of respect towards denmark and danish people.
religions are not to make jokes of.  



5 Feb 2006 @ 18:25 by vibrani : What crap
I've personally seen dozens of comics and films made in Arab/Muslim nations against Jews and Christians. Mosques call for the deaths of non-Muslims. Nice try, but we know what's going on.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 18:30 by daniel @80.88.153.206 : AttN: IslamIsDying
ATTN: IslamIsDying.

I sympathise with you. A muslem living in an islamic country! phew! immagine the persecution! I know of a small town in the backwaters of Africa called "Jos" in Northern Nigeria. It is an small enclave of African Christians surrounded by Islamic cities, and boy! those guys in Jos literary have to keep fighting for their lives. When Ben Laden Bombed America the Muslims in Jos came out to celebrate and of course killed some christians! When America went to Afghanistan to capture Ben Laden the muslims of course poured in to the street this time to protest and of course kill more christians in the bargain... you can immagine of course what happened when America went for Saddam.

So I symphatise with you living among the midst of fanatics. But I have one advise for you. you got to be a chamelion, that is hide ur opinions from them fanatics because i know they will go for u if they know you resent theur way of live and want them to change. So for God's sake pretend and stay Alive. D  



5 Feb 2006 @ 18:31 by vibrani : Yes
millions of Africans have been murdered by Muslim Arabs.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 18:51 by Finnish @82.181.27.45 : RE: Mohammad
Dear Mohammad

Logic and politeness are our only friends when we are talking about these kind of sensitive issues between different cultures and religions.

I try answer your message soon as possible, but now I have to read some school books for tomorrows exam.  



5 Feb 2006 @ 18:58 by daniel @80.88.153.206 : Attn : Mohammad Kanaan
Attn: Mohammad Kanaan

Ur views are quite morderate. U r the kind of muslim that will make the world a safer place, not fanatics like SHAYKHOON. However, some of your statistics and excerpts are selective - I understand though, since most of us who submit comments are equally biased. I have one question for ya: in a western country any man is free to change his religion, i.e a christian or bhuddist can become a muslim, what manner of death then does the Quoran prescribe for you if u chose to become a Christian?  



5 Feb 2006 @ 19:05 by daniel @80.88.153.206 : Attn: Mohammad Kanaan
Attn: Mohammad Kanaan!

We 've not heard from u for sometime now.No offense meant about my question above. May I use this opportunity to wish u several decades more of Wedding ANNIVERSARIES for ur family!!! My sincere regards to your wife & pls tell her not to stop u from using the computer! we all value your moderate and mature Comments!  



5 Feb 2006 @ 19:07 by Albanian @207.69.136.202 : a profile of Mumammad
the founder of islam has a stunning past of when he lived and the way he lived his own life is quite diffetent from his own teachings. Anyone curious can check it out @ www.nndb.com and type word "muhammad" you never again may wonder why islam is so violent. Long live Europe without arabs just as we are not living in their lands. What's wrong with asking nothing more then that. Europeans in Europe and arabs in arabia.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 19:15 by daniel @80.88.153.206 : CAN ANYONE ANSWER THIS QUESTION!
I need an answer to this urgent Q: In a western country any man is free to change his religion, i.e a christian or bhuddist can become a muslim, what manner of death then does the Quoran prescribe for you (a muslim) if u chose to become a Christian?  


5 Feb 2006 @ 19:21 by vibrani : Daniel
Here are a couple of resources for you. [link]

and
The Hadith (another "holy" book of Islam) says that Jihad, or holy war, is the second best thing to believing in Allah and his apostle (Muhammad).

Allah's apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and his Apostle." The questioner then asked, "What is the next?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause." (Hadith vol. 1, no. 25).
The Hadith also says that Murderous Muslims could take the property of people they killed during a Jihad (there are different types of Jihad). In addition to killing infidels like Christians and Jews, Muslims are also commanded to kill anyone who leaves Islam (Hadith vol. 4, no. 260).

The Quran requires violence. Sura 9:5 says,

Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.
Sura 5:33 records what is done to infidels who resist Islam:

Their punishment is...execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land.
Muhammad also burned out eyes with hot irons (Hadith vol. 1, no. 234) and deprived people of water until they died (vol. 8, no. 796).

In Islamic countries you can be incarcerated and tortured without due process--this was all part of 7th century Arabia. The dictator could do whatever he wanted to. I read an article in the Washington Post about Sadaam Hussein's son. They said that he was a terror. One night he raped a woman and when she complained, he killed her. He did stuff like that all the time and one night he got shot up getting out of his car and was paralyzed.

And here [link]  



5 Feb 2006 @ 19:25 by daniel @80.88.153.206 : To The Albanian
Yeah Albanian. I Just read the link u recommended. Could c the dude lived quite a playboy life. And a nine year old baby! Phew! I believe these statistics are fake. I thought only 4 wifes were recommended how come he had 9. Did he divorce them? Pls reassure me these stats are not fabricated.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 19:32 by daniel @80.88.153.206 : Impressive Answer Vibrani
Thanks Vibrani:

Your answer is quite impressive and enlightening, and so was the link u recommended. it settles an argument I and my fellows round are having. Once again Thanks for the prompt and clarifying answer!  



5 Feb 2006 @ 19:37 by albanian @207.69.136.202 : to daniel
haha like you close to a billion muslims also wished those stats are fake but that is the real foundation of islam about the site is an international web site and tracks people from all over the world and 100% accurate.You can check it out yourself by researching for many other people on the site. As far as muhammed I knew it for 11 wives and one of them to have been 9 years old but now for 13.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 19:38 by vibrani : You're welcome Daniel
It's good for everyone to know, too.

Here's my answer to the entire issue with Muslims - it's the big last song from "Hairspray." Apply this to our freedom and joy of life.

TRACY
You can't stop an avalanche
As it races down the hill
You can try to stop the seasons, girl
But ya know you never will
And you can try to stop my dancin' feet

But I just cannot stand still
'Cause the world keeps spinning
'Round and 'round
And my heart's keeping time
To the speed of sound
I was lost til I heard the drums
Then I found my way

TRACY & LINK
'Cause you can't stop the beat

Ever since this old world began
A woman found out if she shook it
She could shake up a man
And so I'm gonna shake and shimmy it
The best that I can today

'Cause you can't stop
The motion of the ocean
Or the sun in the sky
You can wonder if you wanna
But I never ask why

And if you try to hold me down
I'm gonna spit in your eye and say
That you can't stop the beat!

You can't stop a river
As it rushes to the sea
You can try and stop the hands of time
But ya know it just can't be
And if they try to stop us, seaweed,
I'll call the n - double-a - n - p!
'Cause the world keeps spinning
'Round and 'round.

SEAWEED
'Round and 'round

PENNY
And my heart's keeping time
To the speed of sound

SEAWEED
Speed of sound

PENNY
I was lost till I heard the drums
Then I found my way

PENNY & SEAWEED
'Cause you can't stop the beat

PENNY & SEAWEED, TRACY & LINK
Ever since we first saw the light
A man and woman liked to shake it
On a Saturday night
And so I'm gonna shake and shimmy it
With all my might today
'Cause you can't stop
The motion of the ocean
Or the rain from above
They can try to stop the paradise
We're dreaming of
But they cannot stop the rhythm
Of two hearts in love to stay
'Cause you can't stop the beat!

EDNA
Tracy, I have a little something
I'd like to add, if you don't mind.
You cant stop my happiness
'Cause I like the way I am
And you just can't stop my knife and fork
When I see a Christmas ham
So if you don't like the way I look
Well, I just don't give a damn!

EDNA & ENSEMBLE
'Cause the world keeps spinning
'Round and 'round
And my heart's keeping time
To the speed of sound
I was lost 'til I heard the drums
Then I found my way

EDNA & WILBUR & COMPANY
'Cause you can't stop the beat

Ever since this old world began
A woman found out if she shook it
She could shake up a man
And so I'm gonna shake and shimmy it
The best that I can today

'Cause you can't stop
The motion of the ocean
Or the sun in the sky
You can wonder if you wanna
But I never ask why
And if you try to hold me down
I'm gonna spit in your eye and say
That you can't stop the beat!  



5 Feb 2006 @ 20:39 by omar @68.252.69.75 : rude americans
freedom of speech stops when you're insulting the best man ever created by God. i dont care if you christians take it as a joke when someone insults jesus or draws a funny cartoon of him. the difference between us and you is that we actually take our religion seriously. christian religion is watching the 700 club and going to sing at church one day a week. no wonder you can joke about it..  


5 Feb 2006 @ 20:40 by vibrani : hahahahaha
funny.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 21:00 by Labib @62.219.56.120 : HAIL DENMARK!!!
HAIL DENMARK FOR WHAT THEY'VE DONE! IT SHOULD'VE BEEN DONE A LONG TIME AGO BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH!!!!
HAAAAIL DENMARK!
I ADORE YOU FUCCKISLAAAAAM!!!!!!!!!!!!
COWS, PIGS, BASTARDS! FAGS! FUCCKKKK ISLAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMM
HAILLL DENMARKKKK
I DONT KNOW WHY HITLER DIDN'T CONTINUE AND DESTROYED ISLAM!!!
DAMN USA! WHY DID YOU STOP HITLER FROM DESTROYING THEM!  



5 Feb 2006 @ 21:13 by vibrani : The Muslims
rioting in Lebanon were so stupid they didn't even know where the Danish Consulate was, so they attacked and destroyed EVERY building on the block. Throwing out computers, setting fires. Acting worse than any animal.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 21:49 by FINNISH @82.181.27.45 : Re: Amer Masarweh
Dear Amer Masarweh, Mohammed and others

Im not sure did you Amer answered my message when you where talking about terrorists and propaganda? But I hope you don't judge me because of one message. (Judge me after ten messages:) I have much more to say, but its hard to say everything in one short message. There are always many different views and perspectives.

One of my points was also that people are simple and see many things black and white, which it never is. People shouldn't see things black and white but they do, because they are just simple human beings. The mass off information coming to peoples eyes is so wide that it's impossible to see all the sides. That incompleteness of every humans is one of the problems of course.

About PROPAGANDA: When Im reading these news and articles of "human bombs in the name of Allah" killing innocent Muslims and Christians, I also read news how Israel and US have killed people with missiles, how US attacked to Iraq more likely beacause of oil, how George W. Bush is saying stupid things, how Palestinians live in poverty and in the world of anger being afraid of their lives every day. Now these are all in the same Finnish newspaper. Is that all PROPAGANDA? I think that is the freedom of speech. I don't think there is right for anyone to kill innocent people. If someone blames me for thinking it's justified to kill people by US or what ever, he or she is very wrong and insults me. (I will write my opinion about freedom of speech and responsibilities later)

About the Cartoons: I didnt know anything about them before this week. I found them a bit insulting to Islam also, but for me those are just cartoons and didn't have much influence to My opinions. When I'm comparing the Cartoons and hundreds of people being killed every day no matter what religion they are. It's not hard for me to choose which one has more influence to my opinions or which one insults more the humanity.

Jihad al-Momani, head journalist of al-Shihan(Jordan newspaper) you are the greatest hero in this madness.  



5 Feb 2006 @ 21:58 by john @83.70.243.91 : Mohamed vrs Denmark

While its is true to say that not all Muslims are terrorist , it would appear that most terrosits are in fact Muslim.

this begs the question Why?????

It would alo appear to the honest bystander that Muslims want to have all their own way , they are happy to like in the West , but yet insist on trying to make the west take on the ways of Islam, the obivious answer would be to stay where ever they feel comfortable, but if that place is the west , they should be happy to accept western values, after all, westeners do not expect to change the values of the east( and yes the spanish inquisition is a few years ago now).
The eastern muslims are ready to accept western money as Aid(Pakistan Earthquake and the sumnami, but not the western values that created the money in the first place, all seems a little Alla Carte.  



5 Feb 2006 @ 22:09 by Josef @213.66.175.83 : Mohammed fucker
Fuck mohammed that son of a bitch!  


5 Feb 2006 @ 22:14 by FINNISH @82.181.27.45 : LAYOFF of the Head Journalist in Jordan
Is the layoff of head journalist Jihad al-Momanis from al-Shihan(Jordan newspaper) representing the freedom of speech and free mind in Jordan?
(Jihad al-Momanis was layoffed after he tried to calm down the muslim people and asking them to be reasonable in this issue, even if he was also hurt because of the cartoons)  



5 Feb 2006 @ 22:19 by vibrani : It's really simple
If one is religious, then respect all religions equally. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them, or that you can't critcize them. But it can't work with only one religion bitching about it and demanding to control all the other religions in the world. If you want to be respected, then respect others. It will take a monumental effort to get it through to Muslims that they're not the only or best religion in the world, and that their so-called prophet is the best and last. It's absurd and needs to change if there is to be any movement towards getting along with others. If your god or prophet is the best FOR YOU, great. Keep it that way. Keep it to yourself and enjoy it. But don't demand everyone else has to see it the same way, and no one is free to express their thoughts and feelings or artistic creations. That does mean Muslim nations might have to start becoming freer societies - but if they're so convinced they've got "the religion" what are they so worried about? Why not let people choose for themselves? I think this matter can force a worldwide agreement. Of course, there are athiests, and people such as myself who do not believe in any religion but still believe in the Source and we deserve respect, too.

I think the big question is if Muslims as a whole can accept that there are other beliefs in the world and some don't agree with Muslim's views and they don't have to die because of that!  



5 Feb 2006 @ 22:43 by Amer @82.194.62.23 : Westerns are unrational
what is the problem in being a terrorist? do any one of you know why killing people is bad? Why you westerns don't be a terrorists also (actually you are the terrorists)? Why you don't kill your self and destroy the world with you? Aren't you free? Oh, you are not free, you are just unable to do that, right? or you don't like that? why? why you don't like to be killed and destroy the world with you? you have manners? Are manners good? or bad? I dare you answer this.
What is exstremist? is he the one who is not saying what commons are saying? or he is at the edge? but how could you know he is at the edge? can you proof that you are really seeing the whole thing to know who is in the middle or at the edge? and is it good to be at the middle, start, or end?
What is the problem in being fundamentalist? do you think fundamentals things are not correct? or not existing? can you proof logically that to be fundamentalist is completely/always wrong?
Actually westerns are just talking. They never found any rational answers for those questions but that didn't deny them talking. They talk as if they do understand what they are talking about. They even commited a war against terrorism and after killing many many innocent people they started to ask what is terrorism.
What is the problem if I am a terrorist muslim? does that make me bad? any proof?
Actually you are really messed, and really lost. Good and bad is really your biggest headache. But you don't want to admit your lost, you don't want to admit your ignorance about what is good and what is bad, you try to find stupid asnwers to feel some confidentiality. Be sure that westerns who talk without using their mind will be punished in the hell in a way you will never ever wish it to you most hated enemy. Prepare your self, because you are a human who chose to be an animal. You talk before thinking. You never tried to understand. Noam Chomsky has great statement which says: "It is very hard to mess that westerns are hypocrates, It really needs much great education to mess that".
So if you think that this so huge world was created for you to play like monkeys and have fun with the religion of creator of the world, then you can expect the really big ugly hell special for people like you. The creator who created this world and showing us his power is earthquakes and hurricanes actually is going to show you bad people the real punishment. Do you think I am stupid and close-minded? I dare you answer my questions rationally. You even don't know what is rational thinking and to be sure to be rational. You just talk, and some of you are killing, and when they are being killed they say to others "Terrorists", so what?
Bear in your mind that, terrorizing the enemy is very known way to get victory. and westerns are doing that every day with each others. And every one of them is saying about the other "Terrorist".
So what is the problem in being terrorist? It is actually better than being western who really love to be less than animals. Go and see how westerns do suck each other's ass, they just beat pigs in that.
Do you think you are civilized human beings? Actually you are not, you are just advanced clever donkeys, but mindless.
Do you think I am saying this because I hate westerns? Actually that is not true. I only hate the bad people of westerns, because I know many who are really so great, and many who converted to Islam after a little thinking, and many are very educated and just by talking few words with me. But who ever talk about terrorism and don't define it rationally is really a pig. He is really dishonest. He really deserve to have bad life with bad after life. Prepare your self, you know that, you feel that you are going to be punished, but you are not free, you chose to be a slave to your ill-mind/stupid desires.
Remember that, every word I said her is not a try to insult you, because you are really worse than that. It is just a try to clean a mirror of you, and show you your self honestly.  



5 Feb 2006 @ 23:14 by tom@hotmail.com @83.70.218.37 : Mohammed /Denmark
Amer.

You seem to have lost the plot and have taken leave of your sense again.
the only thing you are sure of is that you are correct,and every one else is wrong, we all live in the 21st century and we need to adapt to the requirments of our time , and not continue to dwell in the dirth and filth of ages past.
When its comes to values and beliefs , may be iam wrong , but do its ok to cut off the hands and heads of people , , just incase your still confused , its not ok, and any one who thinks it is ok , is an animal, and animals do get the same respect as people.
Can god not mean love,and not war and revenge and terrorism.
You have your god , I have my mine ,and yes some one is wrong , but so what .
Suppose we are all wrong ?????? Can you prove you are right, we all have religous books , but remember never refused ink.

Get off the stage , you might be correct , but then again you might not.
As they say in my country you could be a long time dead before you find out.
 



5 Feb 2006 @ 23:15 by name @83.5.213.40 : The Polish Pope was also shown in a funn
funny scatch and we also were angry at the people who did it but come on to burn Embassies...... and kill people ........ Denmark is a crap country so they are trzing to feel good.  


5 Feb 2006 @ 23:18 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : Ok, maybe it's time to take a step back
Hey, guys! Maybe it's time to take a step back and cool down a bit. Right now we are all throwing pies at each other and it's not really doing any good, now is it?
I think that what many people forget is that in Denmark, this is not a question of religion. Denmark, and the other Scandinavian countries (I'm Swedish myself), don't really have a religion. Yes, the Scandinavian countries were christian for centuries, but now, 2006, most people living here don't really have any religion at all. Instead, our freedom of speech is a standard that we live by, it is even written in our laws. We are a democracy, and we believe that everybody has a right to speak their opinion. And with speak I mean speak, not resort to violence if the other party does not agree with you. That means that we truly believe that we have the right to say what we want. It may not always be the smartest thing to do. I mean, I have the right to call my neighbor ugly and stupid, but why would I do that? It's rude and not productive at all. In that sense I truly think that it was UNNECESSARY to publish those pictures.
My point is that this is not only a question of religion. There are many muslims in the world, who may be hurt, but accept that we don't share their point of view. I think that the people who act violent and burn embassies and stuff, only use their retorted views on religion as a way to get power. I don't think that a true muslim would do that. From what I have heard, the Quraan really speaks of peace and respect, and anything else is just tradition and culture and a hunger for power, not the true religion. So no more pies thrown on muslims in general, or the western world people in general. It's not productive and it only raises more hate and segregation.
I think the key word here is RESPECT. The western world needs to respect and open their eyes to what a big part the religion plays in a muslims life. And the muslim needs to respect that not everybody live by their religion. The Scandinavian freedom of speech is our religion, so to speak. That needs to be respected as well.
And finally, DO by all means condemn the violence that guys like bin Ladin preach. For all of those who follow him: If you reach into your hearts, can you not see that all he wants is power, and more power? He's not interested in following true Islamic rules, he just wants power.
And sincerely, am I not right? What good does it do to hate each other? It will only drain your energy from doing peaceful stuff like practicing your religion or travel in space. Come on all of you, muslims, christians, ateists or whatever you are. Just cool down and enjoy each others company. Maybe you can learn something from listening to the other side. Who says your views are the right ones. We have no way of knowing, now do we???  



6 Feb 2006 @ 00:06 by bushman : Ok :}
I supose if you put it that way, I have no choice but to allow my government to do as it will, life with a dark heart or a light heart, dosnt matter. It's just life on this planet, so bombs away?. So your saying you dont want us to tell our goverments to stop bombing you into submission? That its Allahs will that you be and whoever is near you to be nuked? I'm a man of 2 hearts, I can see the good in the bad and the bad in the good. Is fine with me, the planet will recover just fine, just like last time, 10,000 years ago a nuclear war waged between India and quite posably your forefathers people, look at it, both sides were obliterated, back to the stone age, yet here we all are here today, again, fighting the same fight. Is fine with me, the planet will survive. Life will go on.  


6 Feb 2006 @ 00:33 by Khayati Hamza @81.192.21.66 : you are absolutely right

Realy you was right, in all that forum i find something true. I don’t mean to insult any one here ; just what i watn like all the muslims people in all the world is live with christians and jewish in peace, if your are realy want know what happends in Palestine you must to lisning to the palestinien people not to the isralien medeas. About 3 people die every day, is that not a terorrism ? or terorrism is a world juste for the actes of Muslims, u must realy know that people hwo make bambes of thameselves want juste vagence for their Families, so is that a terorrist ? i don’t think so, we must to be more clevar on those things. U know their is so many anti-christians in the World they was christians but they didn’t find what they want in this religion, and there is too much inbelivers for the christianity. in the christianity it’s legal to drink and smoock and fuck vergins befor mariage and cheate is that a good religion ? islam tell us to not drink to not smook to not fuck any girl juste if she is your wife to not cheate ours wives and if you think juste some you gonna find that is good for people not agenst there health and there lives so that and many oder facts don’t proove that the islam is good for people, from that i don’t want any one think that i’m telling that for make people belive in islam or any thing like that, no what i want is juste some respect for this religion and don’t take from the lignes what is happend from 1427 years old for fighting and killing people. We still remember that U.K, France…. And many oder contries was in wars and they kill inocente of muslims and oder people, so can we juge theme and tell that the christianity tell to people to kill each oder ? i don’t think so. So befor juge people for murder you must find out first why. and please don’t confiause what is happend from 1427 y.o in 579 and now in 2006. i think we all live in this earth so we must to live in peace juste befor you ask muslims to stop « the actes of terorrist » like u call theme, stop the actes of juish, and Americans they kill people in Iraq and they are christians. is that the christianity ? to kill people in his home? and when he defend his home you call him terrorist. No befor you speak you must to think first.

In all of that i didn’t mean to insult crechianity juste because we respest what people belive in, what i want to make here is juste a comparison betwen those two reliogions we want to live in peace but that can happend juste if you too want that pleace don’t make those things for have peace in the world i think that every one want that if some want the war that hwo we gonna call him terorrist…

Khayati Hamza
morocco  



6 Feb 2006 @ 00:34 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : Read up on history
Bushman, my dear. I think you need to read up on history. Nuclear war 10,000 years ago? Honey, I don't know which history books you have been reading, but maybe you should try another one.
But I do have to agree on one thing, whether you meant it or not: Life will go on, and the planet will recover. We are just a piss in Mississippi. With that in mind, why bother arguing in the first place. RESPECT, once again!  



6 Feb 2006 @ 00:38 by khayati hamza @81.192.21.66 : sorry
i was speaking about the article of "Westerns are unrational"  


6 Feb 2006 @ 00:49 by hamza @81.192.21.66 : we want peace in the world
peace is that what any one want;

we want peace in the world

nous voulons la paix dans le monde

wij willen vrede in de wereld

desideriamo la pace nel mondo

wir wünschen Frieden in der Welt

мы хотим мир в мире

deseamos paz en el mundo  



6 Feb 2006 @ 01:00 by vibrani : For those of you who can
please read my article on this topic - it's my own suggestion for resolutions.
[link] It's supposed to be viewable to the public, so if you have any difficulty getting there or reading it, please let me know here. Thanks.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 01:12 by bushman : For Lisa:
The truth is stranger than fiction.
[link]  



6 Feb 2006 @ 01:35 by hamza @81.192.21.66 : help
i ahve a difficult to get there please tell how ?  


6 Feb 2006 @ 01:41 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : For bushman
Since I didn't live 10,000 years ago, I don't know what really happened then. But I certainly know that you have to be critical of everything you read before you take it to your heart. Therefore, I think it can be smart look for more sources of information before you decide to believe in anything.  


6 Feb 2006 @ 01:47 by xxxxx @62.72.230.6 : mohammed can suck my cock
Congratulations to the muslim on fucking up your image to the rest of the world, well done retards, that really helped.. I actually respected muslims like most other religions so far, aslong as you keep your sick islam to yourself. But you've gone too far this time (and this is the opinion of most of the people i know too).

oh and.. FUCK MOHAMMED why do you worship a fictional character that never existed? so many human lives lost because of fucking religions (especially islam lately, and christianity hundreds of years ago) is it so hard to simply not believe in fairy tales which can't be proved.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 01:48 by hamza @81.192.21.66 : thank you
thank you so mach lisa for this, it absolutly true and i'm with you. every one how think must to be on that point of view.  


6 Feb 2006 @ 01:55 by hamza @81.192.21.66 : i wish God forgive you
juste because i'm a respactful muslim i cannot insult "jesus" it's too easy if u think some but in islam we don't right to insult any religion in the world, and if you are a good reader you gonna read that please don't insult our prophet. And if you don't belive him that's not a crim it's ur mind not mine, but don't insult islam or profet.
like what any one here can see i want to speak from eason and logic i didin't insult ur religion but u did. pleace don't do that again .  



6 Feb 2006 @ 02:08 by Finnish -> Tom @82.181.27.45 : Media
Dear hamza

I just want to say that when I'm talking about the situation of Palestinian, I don't know everything about it, how could I? But when I gather information, I'm not lesening Israeli media. I'm lesening the journalists who are on nobodys side, I'm lesening of the interviews from Palestinian people. I even criticize those documents before talking. And that is also why Im in this web page: to learn to understand other point of views and to share my opinions with others.

About who is a terrorist. When someone kills innocent men, women and children, by missiles or bombs, or what ever way, or what ever reason, no matter who is doing those murders, that person is a terrorist and a criminal against humanity. Christian or Muslim. This is my opinion.

People here, as we all can see, have very different cultural and religional backgrounds, and very different styles to communicate, so lets try to remember that. We don't know much about each other. I apologize if I say some things wrong, too direct or unpolite way. We all have a lot to learn from each other.

I change my name to Tom 'cose I dont want to represent every Finnish.
Peace and Respect:)  



6 Feb 2006 @ 02:09 by pfwajowfoij @62.72.230.6 : haha
In scandinavian countries even the christians makes jokes/insults about jesus because they have a sense of HUMOR which you obviously lack.. We have the right to make fun of mohammed mahmud whatever you stupid fucks worship, why care? you're the ones who make a small pointless thing this "big" and destroy your reputation, not denmark. In fact i find a bit funny how you muslims react, it's so chilidish from a westerners eyes, a bit like kid's fighting over something in kindergarten.

You muslims simply have issues understanding that most people outside muslim countries don't give a FUCK about religions, why would they? they live on just as fine being atheist (even better).  



6 Feb 2006 @ 02:17 by albanian (indo-european) @207.69.139.7 : why so much trouble from muslims?
Unfortunately thanks to their high birth rate muslims have made islam the fastest growing religion on the World, and West is still to see their darkest side. Since Sept 11 there have been numerous terrorist attack in the Western Europe, the reason why they don't do them in USA is simple they beat the shit out of them , lock them for good in famous prisons, even their families do not know where their "loved terrorists" are. In spain was 11th of marchin London subway bombings. But is not only Europe that suffers from them. Trouble is wherever muslims live, from Philippines to Morocco, there are hundreds of terrorist organisations that are being funded from immigrants in western Europe. Europe just does not get it.  


6 Feb 2006 @ 02:21 by jock @80.176.140.38 : cartoon
The majority of people who are strongly supportive of the right to publish these cartoons are I believe not christians but secular citizens of democratic countries which mostly have christian traditions and history. The vast majority of those who are against the right to publish these cartoons are people who would describe themselves as muslims who either live in states which are muslim theocracies, sultanic dictatorships or those struggling for deserved independance viz. Palestine and Iraq. Because there is little or no free media in most of these countries the proletariat (not used as an insult) and it would appear many of the 'educated' elite tend to think of the citizens of Europe as christians and therefore when an insult is made on the islamic faith it is a crusade against muslims. The truth is the crusade is against bigotry, hypocrisy and grovelling genuflection (insult intended)from christians, jews, hindus, seikhs, muslims, scientologists, book burners and reactionary war mongers from rich and poor countries.
You will not find cartoonists and satirists burning, bombing or trying to ban those of you who have your faiths, but those who seek to destroy the right of others to think and express ideas deserve to be lampooned whatever their 'sacred idols' are. Perhaps those who are offended could take up the pen and show us their thoughts without invoking murderous deeds.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 02:22 by bushman : Accually Lisa:
These writen texts are just as sacred as any of the other religions, so? We see the epic battle over and over. Over and over, brother against brother. Maybe going by the Mayan calender, you could say this battle has been going on for over 120 million years. Tick, tock, goes the biological clock, shall mankind waste its last fleeting moment of awarness and technical acheivment, to the blindness of his true nature? Well, at least we can all agree that their is/was a Creator of all things. :}
[link]  



6 Feb 2006 @ 02:37 by Jock @80.176.140.38 : danish pastries
I'm trying to think of some other good uses for Lurpak - any ideas?  


6 Feb 2006 @ 02:41 by hamza @81.192.21.66 : think more
Daer albanian

I know that there many atheist outside muslim countries, like what you said, but give a dumb about our religion and i think u and the others must to respect that .

When u said In scandinavian countries even the christians makes jokes about « jesus » i think it’s teir Gods not ours so they have reason if tehy find it’s anything, but they don’t any reason to speak about the oders belives and sais that’s to is our right, and when muslims speak they said they are stupids or something like this. What i want to tell you man it’s our religion and we will die if it’s nececery and we are men realy men hwo don’t have afred of die but you, you want juste live like something not like a honorabl humain live free but you didn’t borned juste like that. From millions of years and people think it’ gonna me gods for this world it’s cannot creat him self juste like that, and now you telling their is no god. You must to tink more on that. If you think juste some, we said that many gods or demons like belial, satan…. Comande this world don’t you think if it right this world must have his end from millions of years, don’t u think that they gonna fight about hwo comande this world or we gonna find some one hwo said i want human like this and the oder want theme in oder way, and one want be see wather in this pleace but the oder not, that what we dont find their is no change on that, juste that will proov to you that is a one GOD hwo comande this earth and if you want to make shure hwo is that one u can juste visite this website [link]
We are not alone one this earth their is a GOD and juste one if you ask him to forgiv you he’ll do be cereful maybe some day you’ll die and you’ll find out when everything is gonn, yeah their is a GOD
We lost every thing, befor this day buy some books and site and read something may be we’ll belive about GOD. And if you don’t belive in him juste don’t insult him.
That’s for your good and do anything you want, remember i didn’t tell you anything bad juste read about ISLAM that’s all be a koran or go to a mokey they give it to you free and read it, if he said truth belive in it id you find it lie let it it’s to simple .  



6 Feb 2006 @ 04:09 by Amer @82.194.62.23 : Westerns are unrational Cont.
To: tom@hotmail.com

Did I say I am right? But why you didn't answer any of the questions?
My brother tom, it is not great thing to act before know and understand very well what you are going to do.

Think it it like this:
If you are an animal, then you have no ability/interest in thinking in why, or what, but you only interested in how. When humans train dogs they don't tell them what, but only how, and they are using the already available motivations in dogs to make them interesting in doing something.
If you are a smart chimpanzy you will have the ability to distinguish things apart, and that is "what". But, never ever till now we recorded in any linguistic study that, animals asks "Why".
Actually that is the main question behind the super nature of human being comparing to animals.
So far, who ever do ask "why" repeatedly and find answers in rational way to the root of something unquestionable, is going to convert to Islam.
These questions had not been answered completely rationally except in Islam.
For exapmle: Why the people insulted Muhammad? the media answer is very irrational, which it is: They have freedom of speach. That is very ridiculous. Freedom is not a cause for any thing, it is a negative arguments which say: no contrains. THose people talked about Muhammad not because they are free, but because they hate him some way and have no respect to him as a human being, or maybe they don't respect any human being or any muslim.
But who said that they are free? they are really ridiculous. Freedom of speach is not something possible to be certain about. If you think in it rationally you will know that, freedom is unknown. You cannot know if you are free to think, free to speak, free act. You just assume the inexistence of contrains/consequences. You think you can think freely, actually you need to prove that you have no constrains in thinking, and that is a negative argument.
If you think you are free to speak or act, you actually have no way to know that you will not be punished, but just you see the history and see that no one so far was punished for insulting Jesus then there will not be any punishement to insult Muhammad. You knew now that is not the same case, and Danes are really facing big problem regarding their business, and the paper apologized. That why people who don't think correctly will never be contstructive.
Again, thinking very well and spending your time thinking is just the most accurate expression of humanity. Especially "why". That why you and every one else, muslims or non muslims, are really insulting their humanity/religion if they did things without knowing why to the root of some proved unquestionable thing.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 04:37 by Amer @82.194.62.23 : Westerns are unrational, Replies
To Finnish -> Tom @82.181.27.45 : Media

You are wrong. Terrorist is not the one who kill for what ever reason, but he is the one who kills or do any other so called criminal act to influence people to do or not to do something without their soul satisfaction about "why".

Crime is samething relative. Who killing innocent palestinians is a hero in Israel and USA and criminal out of Israel and USA.

By they way, who said that killing is always bad? even innocent people? Actually people don't know what is good and what is bad, they mix things up. They mix morality with good/bad judgement. You could feel that it is not justice to kill other people who didn't do any thing, but that does not mean that is bad. You just don't like it. But actually it could be very good to kill all the human being. Religion has the only role to tell us what is good and what is bad, because it is giving us the information about the future. Every jewish/christians/muslim believe that Allah once asked jewish people to kill themselves, but he forgived them after that. So, why killing is always bad? Actually I really think it is bad but that because I am a muslim, and I know why. But why atheists think it is bad? Actually they are telling that for political purposes, and they have no way to know if it is good or bad.

To 6 Feb 2006 @ 02:09 by pfwajowfoij @62.72.230.6 : haha

Actually you are so wrong, and this media storm is going to make much people to convert to Islam. Islam is always going to be spreaded more and more when is criticized. Because simply it is the truth. Americans was converting to Islam in a rate about few thousands per year. and after 9/11 they just was converted in multiple times of that rate. It is actually your mistake to insult Islam. It is your stupidity that you think you are free from consequences. Be sure that, the cause behind every honest people to not convert to Islam is just the ignorance of what Islam is. So far, many people converted because of me. I am an arabian highly educated person. So far, found no human being could stand against my proofs. Many people just was so surprised about how they was so stupid to miss the truth. It is very hard to miss the truth, but dishonesty is so widely spreaded among the westerns. But remember, you could still have the chance of freedom to extract your self from your dirtyness.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 05:05 by Amer @82.194.62.23 : What is Islam?
I just want you guys to bear in your mind that, Islam means: To surrender to the truthness.

This is very valid definition of Islam regarding the doctrine of Islam itself.
Actually Allah has many names in Islam, and one of them is: The Truthness.

So, if you are searching for truth honestly and found it with rational thinking through anything else other than Islam you actually can destroy Islam completely. Just say your proofs, and it could be surprising to you but Allah does not accept muslims who don't know why they are muslims rationally.

The Quran insult every non-rational human being. It is more than 90 times the Quran tells us about mind and thinking to be the way of Allah.

Islam is not the last divine religion, but it is the first. Abraham was a muslim. Because he asked him self why and who, and then he commited to the unified creator of the world as the only cause of this rational world, and that is reported in the Quran very clear.

Be sure that, if you are searching for truth honestly and without wasting time, and found truth anywhere other than Islam then be sure that, Islam tells you to keep the good work. Stay at what you found as a truth. Allah is going to award every honest human being who was honest in his search and was not lazy. But if you are denying the unseen without proofs, then prepare your self for the hell. Be careful that, if you are going to search for the truth, you should keep your mind tuned with reality. If you saw that the real proofs are lacking for something then you should know that Allah does not want you to believe in it. If Allah wanted that, Allah will show you the proofs, and if you are honest you will follow the truth, and you will get happy life with much great happy after life.

That is Islam in fact, according to the most strongest verses of the Quran.

Take the word of me, if you are honest and found the truth rationally anywhere, and you followed it in your deeds and made it your life, actually you are a muslim even if you didn't pray or fast. But I am so far found no one found the truth in other than Islam. I chatted many years with disbelievers from much diversed education levels and orientations, and so far, no one could be rational in his criticizing of Islam, and be careful that Islam is not Muslims.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 06:29 by ala @194.165.149.186 : to mr daniel
i would like to point out that quran said that the earth is round and not flat before Galileo  


6 Feb 2006 @ 07:27 by Mo @84.0.52.233 : to all
Hello, I live in Europe, in a christian country, but i do not have any religion. I dont believe in any of God, neither in Christians, nor in Muslims, nor any other. I am a simple girl, believe in people and nature and ourselves. Still trying to belive that the human is good.
But in connection of this case, I think the Christians should understand the Muslims feelings towards the case, and they shouldnt have done this. Probably they also would have been angry, if some pics of their God is shown.... They should have left your prophet out of such things. The other thing, when the first newspaper shown those pics - I havent seen, so actually I do not know what I am talking about - the others shouldnt have done the same. So it was a mistake. They say, there is freedom in the media. And still not allowed to joke about certain things, like for example second World War and Jewish people. This is just not such things to joke about. And you all muslim people, I know your temper and thinking, I have visited several muslim country, (having several problem because of the fact being woman :-) ) , (I loved muslim countries, i enjoyed the Himalaya in Pakistan !!! my favorite place....)
I know your temper, i know your thinking. You must know ours, not muslim people's thinking, we are just not that strict and serious about many things. Sorry for the cartoons, I really dont want your feelings to be hurt, lets accept it was a mistake, - but it is not a solution to kill and blow up people and buildings who doesnt have any connection regarding those cartoons. I hope the case will be solved and forgotten soon....  



6 Feb 2006 @ 07:40 by Still Mo @84.0.52.233 : to Amer about killing
I am ateist, I think God doesnt exist and killing is bad. I tell you why is it bad. Because who are you that you can take away any other human's life ??? If you think killing is good, then why dont you kill your mother, sister, children ??? if it is good, then it is good for them too ...
The killers kills other people, but they are angry if their relatives are also killed. If someone sais killing is good, than kill youself, and then you will realise if it is good or not. The person who is killed, is someone's mother, brother, father,child, LOVE.
If someone sais killing is ok, than that person is just simply not normal. That person's place is in jail or in psicho place of a hospital. He doesnt have the right for living among us. In my opinion, all the killers, who kills people, even more people, should be killed. no jail. Death. See, soon there wont be so many killing.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 08:25 by Sam Said @83.244.12.195 : Islamisdying- i am with you for ever
i am living in bethlehem . islamisdying is the truth, i am with you
dr. SAM SAID bethlehem al mahed street  



6 Feb 2006 @ 09:19 by Human @71.139.86.118 : peace?
Do you know how vast is the universe around us? Take a look at the night sky and admire the works of GOD, feel it, love it, praise it...
"ashes to ashes dust to dust" we are nothing! understand, implement and do good deeds. just hush...  



6 Feb 2006 @ 09:19 by Hanan Taha @196.202.85.6 : We are sorry
Danes,
Again it me, an Egyptian muslim girl " Hanan".
I know that the situation has become out of control by burning embassies and blowing things up.
We apologize for that and I agree that these action have done nothing but to weaken our - muslims- sitatuion,however, those action have been taken by some people who aren't really presenting all the muslims.
Those people - whom u call terrorists- doing violent actions all around do not nessecarily mean that the other 5 billion muslims are like them.
I feel sorry for what happened for you embassies...really sorry...
maybe the boycott was a better way to express objection , but I didn't think that the situation may turn out to be that ugly.
anyway, afew people in afew muslims countries who has done these actions and the rest are really innocent , including my country,so please don't generalize.
and thanks ( Jylland Posten) for the second apology.I think now that everything has been cleared and everything has to be returned to normal,right?  



6 Feb 2006 @ 09:57 by Hanan Taha @196.202.85.6 : important note
please remember that the angry actions are based upon a huge background of mistreatment and racism against muslims since 11 september and not for only the cartoons themselves.
so you can say that the cartoons are the conclusion of this series to these angry muslims.  



6 Feb 2006 @ 10:10 by Comme ci comme ca @82.201.194.22 : To all
I heard a lot about right, freedom of speech. Not about duty. Everyone knows that with a freedom there is also a responsability and a duty. except kids. You are free to say what you want. Even if you know that it is hurting people and going against the social peace, the respect of others ? Who gave you this right ? You don't have it, because you are not respecting the first rule which is going with this freedom. The first right is freedom. The first duty is to respect each other. And don't say that it is just a joke, that it is funny... Because to represent Mohamed with a bomb it is not funny. It is, as most of the books in western countries, describing the muslim religion as a religion of war. It is only funny for the people who believe this. And I really feel sad about this. In the same time, the ones who boycott, it is your right. And after, you are punishing all Danes, even the one not involved in this story, even the muslims living in this country... You are going to make the things worse between two continents and to increase the gap between cultures. You all work for war between cultures. Not for peace, because you are kids, unable to look at the consequences of your actions, reacting as 4 years old kid. Are you waiting for the USA to arrange the problem between Europe and Middle East. Like this this great Nation of Freedoms who made the war in a non threatening nation, and tell them how to think peace and democracy, is going one more time to give lessons to Europa and Middle East. Are you not bored to be treated as kids. Are you not bored to react as kids. Grown up people, and try to work for peace and understanding not for war and destruction.  


6 Feb 2006 @ 10:19 by jazzolog : Sunday In The States
I think I'll leave this lengthy comment at this thread rather than the other on this topic here at Ming's blog, because of the international character of the writers and the tone that is emerging. Americans still appear to be talking rather casually about burning embassies and shouting protestors abroad. That's the way we are. Until somebody runs over a little kid in my own neighborhood, we don't like to put up a streetlight. Of course if somebody set fire to an embassy here, we might attack Borneo or something.

Some Internet writers and newspapers had columns of opinion yesterday. One of my favorite essayists is Byran Zepp Jamieson [link] , who emailed out this comment Friday afternoon~~~

"But there was enough religious loonery in the pages of the newspapers
yesterday to make up for the conspicuous absence of America’s two
noisiest religious whacks.

"First, there’s the matter of the cartoons depicting Mohammed. Islamic
law forbids any depiction of the Prophet as a violation of Allah’s law.
Before anyone in the Christian camp snickers too loudly, they might want
to know that they base this on Allah’s command in the old testament
(also a part of Islamic holy law) forbidding any graven image. Yes, it
comes from the Ten Commandments.

"Now mind you, nobody knows what Mohammed looked like. This is probably a
result of the fact that nobody was allowed to do any paintings of him in
the years following his ascendancy to Prophetability, and prior to that,
nobody could be bothered. So the cartoonists who drew 'Mohammed'
basically drew standard middle eastern Arabic figures. They could have
used Itszak Rabin’s face as a model and it would have been just as good
a guess as any as to the man’s appearance.

"So if you draw a stick figure and write the word 'Prophet' under it, the
Islamic fanatics will declare fatwa against you and express a strong
desire to haul you into a large soccer stadium and chop off your hands
and feet to show you that Allah is just and merciful."

Probably of more importance to this thread is the Addendum Zepp wrote a few minutes later~~~

"In my essay this week on Mytown, I remarked in passing that there were
no images of Mohammad after his rise to 'prophetability'. This, it turns
out, is incorrect. I was just guided to a website that has a remarkable
collect of images of Mohammed, dating from his time to the present day.

"The excellent site in question is
[link] "

The Washington Post put out a long-winded article about the controversy Saturday. I like the notion we have the opportunity to notice the whole clash of fundamentalist vs. liberal culture war is actually quite like a cartoon. But perhaps more significant is Kennicott's reference to the telegraph as such a recent invention. A hundred years ago an injurious depiction of any prophet in a book would have gone relatively unnoticed, but today the news can scream around the world in seconds. What I wish this Post writer had gone on to say is what a wonderful opportunity for negotiation and peace we have here on the Internet. I love that we have been talking together here. Hopefully everyone is learning something beneficial!

Anyway, I can't edit this guy's article very well, so here's the whole thing. Take what you like, and leave the rest~~~

Clash Over Cartoons Is a Caricature Of Civilization
By Philip Kennicott
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 4, 2006; C01

No serious American newspaper would commission images of Jesus that were solely designed to offend Christians. And if one did, the reaction would be swift and certain. Politicians would take to the floors of Congress and call down thunder on the malefactors. Some Christians would react with fury and boycotts and flaming e-mails that couldn't be printed in a family newspaper; others would react with sadness, prayer and earnest letters to the editor. There would be mayhem, though it is unlikely that semiautomatic weapons would be brandished in the streets. Fortunately, it's not likely to happen, because good newspapers are governed, in their use of images, by the basic principle of news valu e .

When those now-infamous 12 cartoons of the prophet Muhammad were first published in Denmark, they had virtually no news value at all. They were created as a provocation -- Islam generally forbids the making of images of its highest prophet -- in a conservative newspaper, which wanted to make a point about freedom of speech in liberal, secular Western democracy. Depending on your point of view, it was a stick in the eye meant to provoke debate, or just a stick in the eye.

Yet, the same 12 cartoons, a tempest in a Danish teapot when they were created in September, now have immense news value. Seeing them, which has always been possible on the Internet, has become a question laden with political importance. And that change in the status of these images is because of, almost entirely, the very people who found them offensive in the first place. If there weren't people in the streets of Gaza and Amman calling for limits on press freedom in countries of which they are not citizens, these cartoons would have long since faded into the obscurity they deserve.

Because, among other things, they are disposable. Perhaps the most striking thing about them is how closely they mirror the superheated tone of the wretched cartoons one finds regularly in the newspapers of the Middle East. There are exceptions to this: The Syrian opposition cartoonist Ali Ferzat makes images of great political power, always softened by a sense of irony and sadness (and, of course, they're not available in Syria because the government shut down his newspaper). Perhaps because editorial opinion, like so many other freedoms, has been so curtailed by authoritarian governments, the cartoonists of the Middle East seize upon acceptable topics -- hatred of Israel and the United States -- with distressing frequency, unrelenting venom and vicious stereotyping.

Several of the original Danish cartoons are minted in the same style, beyond lampoon or caricature and well into the realm of pure defamation. Muhammad is seen with a huge knife and a wild thicket of a beard, flanked by two women entirely veiled but for their eyes; worse, and by far the most inflammatory, is one in which his turban holds a ticking bomb. These images confront the highest religious sensitivities of many Muslims with precisely the same style of virulent rage that Islamic countries so carefully, even ritually, cultivate against the two great boogeymen -- the United States and Israel -- of Middle Eastern politics. Americans may wonder why, given the reality of photographs from Abu Ghraib, these trifling, imaginary images of Muhammad would provoke such a reaction. In part it's because they do so in one of the few forms that are open and available for Muslim artists to express real anger.

But, of course, for many Muslims, especially fundamentalists, the nuances of how the cartoons are drawn won't matter. The essential thing is the proscription against any image of the prophet. And that is where very many people, Muslims and those who fear or hate Muslims (let's be honest about the degree of rancor on both sides), would like to leave it. People on both sides want to picture it as a fundamental conflict of values, between absolute religious beliefs and absolute political principles, between God's word (as interpreted by man) and the freedoms enshrined in Western democracy. If that's how the conflict is presented to people in the West, then they, indeed, have little choice: Of course freedom of the press, even the freedom, as one French newspaper put it, "to caricature God," cannot be compromised.

But even people who hold fast to the bedrock principles of liberal democracy may feel the exasperating hand of a darker manipulation here. Because when forced to an impasse, the cartoon battle becomes exactly what ideologues in both worlds would like it to be: a proxy for the Clash of Civilizations.

Linking the far poles of civilization has always had its perils, not least of which is the temptation to involve oneself intimately in the affairs of people far away. It's been less than 150 years since the first telegraph cable was stretched across the Atlantic, making it possible for people in New York to know that people in London were cheesed off about something utterly trifling and parochial -- and vice versa. It's been less than a century and a half since the beginnings of a world that is now instantly connected, in which a contretemps in Denmark can be quickly scaled up into a rhetorical world war. It's odd, and rather sad, how little we've learned about the way barroom brawls spiral into street riots, about the ancient emotional mechanics that still govern the most important conversations of humanity.

Religious fundamentalism forced the issue; political fundamentalism inflamed it. An apology for giving offense is now capitulation to religious tyranny; the basic instinct of moderation is equated with cowardice. A little ink on paper is inflated to proof of a basic cultural incompatibility. So political leaders here speak of "the long war," a conflict with no sign of hope on the horizon between East and West. Now, rather absurdly, these cartoons may become part of the intellectual hardening of thought that will sustain the idea, on both sides of the cultural divide.

Gravity helps those who push people to conflict; moderation is a Sisyphean task that must always work uphill. Americans can do very little, and are in fact obliged to do nothing, about Muslim societies that don't respect the Western values of tolerance and freedom. They are obliged only to sustain religious tolerance in their own. Moderation, in this case, doesn't mean compromising on the defense of basic freedoms; it means demonstrating the exuberant value of freedom in a secular society. We need more blasphemy, exactly the sort of blasphemy that most challenges our own religious sensitivities. It needn't come in the form of tasteless cartoons but in the return of voices like those of Mark Twain and H.L. Mencken, voices that puncture the pretensions and sanctity of our own religious beliefs and leaders. We may cluck about the lack of freedom in Iran, but we have grown very orthodox about the way we speak of religion in our own public square. The curious thing about sacrilege is that it very often strengthens true religion as much as it reaffirms the right to challenge it.

That is one of the few truths that we might usefully try to communicate to fundamentalists in all corners of the world. But this grew so fast, and so quickly, and without the incorporation of moderating voices on either side, that we've truly reached a frightening impasse. Listen to an Egyptian member of parliament, quoted in Egypt's Al-Ahram Weekly, get it exactly wrong: "The Danish government needs to make a more formal apology in acknowledgment that freedom of expression does not mean people are free to insult prophets."

So perhaps these cartoons really do crystallize why Islam and the West are incompatible and must hunker down for a "long war." The only other option, it seems, is to remember that if vastly different worldviews can find no accommodation on a subject, then perhaps it's too early, in human history, to have the conversation.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company
[link]  



6 Feb 2006 @ 11:02 by RF-Max @130.236.130.121 : danish politics
Denmark is a racist country, trying to provoke other nationalities and religions. they have to blame themselves. Denmark are known as a country with a racist politic.  


6 Feb 2006 @ 17:25 by ozge b @193.174.122.67 : a dilemma?
i condemn the exaggarated protests of radical muslims and as a muslim, the events shouldn't have resulted with these kind of bad scenes... but while everbody is criticizing these people they ignore a very important point: does democracy and -for media freedom of speech- mean having the right of doing whatever you want without any respect to the others?? it is a well known thing that many Muslim people are quite sensitive about Mohammed's portraits, in muslim belief it is forbidden to draw his pictures because Mohammed doesn't want his people to see him as a god and says "i am only a messenger, do not pray to my pictures, but to god".. so up to now there is no picture of Mohammed in muslim world.. anybody can think anything, but it is muslims' respect to their prophets.. like your respect to jesus christ.. so it's these people's biggest right to expect from other people this respect.. as Muslims, one of the main rule of ISlam is believing to other prophets as well.. we also believe in jesus christ for example.. but while muslims admire him as much as as they do to Mohammed, they do not get the same understanding...

media must of course have the freedom of speech. However insulting a person, and especially in this case a holly person who has a very big meaning for his people, cannot be regarded in this frame.. In Turkey, my country, we do not have any cartoons insulting Christ or ones who make fun of your pope... You cannot compare it with other cases (for example there was jesus christ in one of the south park movies) and you cannot say that we can make fun of such kind of things because we are democratic!!! if it is so, then let everbody in media write whatever they want...

From the other side; i do not appreciate the protests of Muslim people, they shouldn' t overreact even if it is something that hurts them.. They mustn' t feel hatred to everyone because a couple of people's mistake.

What really makes me upset is that, we- the muslim people- will be regarded as fundamentalist and undemocratic people again.. While these danish guys will become the heroes of the free media and society, the very false image of the "muslim" identity will continue...

i am triyg to be unbiased and i really ask this question to you objectively without any intention of agitation: If it is ok when people can draw insulting cartoons of hz. mohammed, then it is also ok for protestors to burn danish flags.. Must it be so?? Does democracy tolerate it too?? I do not of course defend burning a nation's flag,i hope there will be some people who will understand what i really mean...

it is really hard to express what i feel, but i sincereley ask one thing from you, try to enlarge your frame of reference...  



6 Feb 2006 @ 17:43 by vibrani : Kennicott's article
Has Kennicott not heard of groups like the AFA, and other primarily Christian groups who censor our media? They were responsible for forcing NBC to remove an excellent program called "The Book of Daniel" in which Jesus is portrayed as a beautiful, supportive, compassionate being, and an Episcopalian minister dealing with life and its problems. But they found it offensive!

Speaking of the "offensive" cartoons - where is the international cry against these, showing the Muslim hypocrisy:[link]

Islam isn't a race...it's a religion.

The man who wrote the above post is right - Jesus and Saddam and Satan were in South Park. Jesus has also been used for frivolous displays on the internet. It didn't cause a huge uproar - did it?  



6 Feb 2006 @ 18:03 by Maged El Sawy @196.204.156.39 : We had better Know Islam & then Judge
For All of us: Lets Be Human Beings, Lets Use the gift God Bestowed on US. Lets Use our Minds. I beleive if this openion is deleted by the webmaster, then you have no Free of Expression!! Simply ... you are free to say & free to listen & also FREE to read... go to the following URLs to know Islam:

[link]
http://al-sunnah.com/introduction_to_islam.htm
[link]
http://www.islamworld.net/

tell you something, stop this hazardous talk & start know what does the OTHER mean?  



6 Feb 2006 @ 19:53 by Tom @82.181.27.45 : Freedom with Responsibilities
Dear ozge b

I think I mostly agree with you. No, I don't think freedom of speech means that you have a right to insult others. Freedom of speech is only one part, other part is Responibility. I think those cartoons were unnecessary.

Analyising the situation what is going on now. Probably the Jyllands Posten had a reason for giving an apology after they understood how those cartoons had hurted Muslim society. But when this situation changed worse, when the flags were in flames, when embassies were on fire. I don't not think it is a question of cartoons and responsibility anymore, now we are talking about things like world piece, security, freedom and safety of our lives and what is the best way to defend our selves. That is a whole new situation.

And for advice from me: for Those who want to find something that hurts your values. Go to surf in the internet! You will find a lot of insulting material from there! You can spend your whole life looking for peolpe, who have different values and even people who wants to hurt you. You can spend your whole life trying to make them think like you and spend your whole life even revenging those who wanted to hurt you. Those who have different values than you(no matter who you are), will never vanish from this earth, unless you some day find yourself alone here. This is now the new world of internet and mobile phones. A hundred years ago this couldn't happend like it did now.

Now if we are comparing at the number of readers of Jyllands Posten and the numbers of who has seen these stupid cartoons now. We can see that the number today is maybe 1000 times bigger. Who spread those cartoons. If the drawers really wanted to hurt Muslims with those cartoons, why some Muslims are helping the drawers? Or is it normal that people in Muslim countries are reading Jyllands Posten?

For conclusion: Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from responsibilities. About the situation now, the violent riots made this situation and the image of Muslim society much worse than it was when those cartoons were published.

Jyllands Posten gave an apology for that the article hurted the Muslims. And the Danish Muslims accepted the apology!!! I hope this calm down this situation.

Good Night everyone. Peace and Respect...  



6 Feb 2006 @ 19:59 by kuwait @62.150.207.188 : IT IS SHEEM TO BURN DENEMAREK FLAG
أن ماحدث من حرق لسفارات الدنمارك و النروج كان عملا همجى وغير مبرر وان من قام به هى الحكومه السوريه والحكومه الايرانيه ونحن بالخليج ندينه بشده ونطالب ان تتم محاسبة من قام بهذا العمل الهمجى الذى يتعارض معا تعاليم الدين الاسلامى نعم نعم هذه الاعمال ليس بها من الاسلام بشى .............. صحيح باننا نتمنا ان يصبح الغرب اقل عنصريه لا كما ظهر فى هذه القضيه( عندما رفض رئيس الوزراءالدانيماركى مقابلت السفراء العرب كانت هذه وقاحه عنصريه) كراهيت الغرب للمسلمين قديمه وليست وليدت اليوم ولكن ولكن لنظهر لهم ما هو الاسلام الحقيقى وليس اسلام المجرمين امثال بن لادن واحمد نجاد والاسد والضواهرى هولاء ليست اخلاقهم من الاسلام بشى ان اردنا ان نبين لهم غضبنا من هذه الرسومات الحقيره فاقصى مانقوم به يجب ان لا ينتهك المعاهدات ونتذكر كيف نبى الله الحبيب محمد (صلى)عندما عاهد الكفره لم ينكث بوعده نعم الغرب يعيش أزمه أخلاقيه كبيره وتجد هذه الازمه فى كل أسره وهذا ما يجعل مفهوم الاسره يتراجع بشكل مخيف لهم ليحل محله مفهوم أنا فقط والباقى للجحيم ) ولكن من ناحيه أخرى ليست أجتماعيه,,, بل صناعيه وأقتصاديه نقر بأن الغرب قدم الكثير والكثير للبشريه انا من دعات بأن الحياة تسعنا جميعافلنعش وندع الاخرون يعيشون ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, والسلام  


6 Feb 2006 @ 20:19 by kuwait @62.150.207.188 : soory it was SHAM NOT SHEEM
my english not that good soory i mint SHAM NOT SHEEM OK!!!!!!!!!!!!  


7 Feb 2006 @ 07:45 by a Dane @80.164.65.4 : to RF-Max
Yes Denmark have had a problem with racisme we got some problems with some groups of Muslims here in one of our citys the police sometimes are afraid to go there they attack ambulances that makes it a lil worse everytime. When we see in TV a muslim cutting the head of a buisness man in the middleeast while yelling "ALLAH IS GREAT" that makes it worse too. but here we work agains racisme. We don´t have problems with Muslims getting attacked or trown things after, here we had a politician that made some racist comments in the radio he was brought for the courts, we had a another politician brought for the court for racist remarks, we try to work the problem, even though we mainly aint muslims.
What do the muslims do when muslims kills people while yelling "Allah is great"? Why don´t u protest and show us that those people don´t speak for the muslim religion?
I got muslim friends i refuse to think all muslims are bad i really try to belive there is atleast as many good as bad ones but it gets harder, when i think of muslims i will try to think of my muslims friends here, or as i saw in TV, i saw some muslim religios leaders trying to calm the trouble makers, i will try to think of theise people as the speakers for Muslims but it gets harder by each passing day.
I still dun understand what muslims are trying to achive, the paper and that made the drawings said they were sorry, you still see the drawings as something Denmark made, Denmark didn´t do that, we had protest here against the drawings too but they did it in a peaceful way i got great respect for that, they show that they were offended, but they don´t want to see blood or death, and they understand that Denmark did not make those drawings.

To Hanan Taha thx for your words makes me still have hope  



7 Feb 2006 @ 07:52 by A Dane @80.164.65.4 : drawings
btw the paper will most likely be bought for the court, what more do people expect to be done?  


7 Feb 2006 @ 08:30 by Aziz A @64.213.98.17 : Insult
Freedom of speech is not enough justification to insult and debase people or religions. Prophet Mohammad dead 1450 years ago where there was no terorisim, or unjustified killing. He called for peacs and respect of dignity. The name of the word "islam" means pease. So Islam is a religion of respect, right worship but not a religion of violence. There are some terrorists kill people in unjustified way and in the mame of Islam, but in reality Islam innocent, and dont forget that those terrorists are killing even Moslim people as in Iraq now . so Islam and real Moslims are both victims of terrorism. So why you insult our prophet in the mame of the freedom. Freedom of expression shoule be subject to morals, and governed by some limitations otherwise it would be a bad way to insult and humiliate people and their ethics with no good reason.Thx  


7 Feb 2006 @ 08:44 by Another Danish guy @80.164.65.4 : to Aziz A
you are still missing the point Aziz if you follow the news even Danes christians and Muslims, protested agains the drawings here in Denmark (in a peacefull manner) they let the paper know they though the drawings was unaccpetable. Denmark did not make the drawings, the drawings dosen´t repesent Denmark and anymore than those people u say dosen´t repesent Islam. The muslims here accepted the apoligy, why dose the muslims in London and the Middle East still yell for killing and bombing?

I too are having problems to seeing theise people as the speakers for Islam, we showed that the paper dose not speak for Denmark but i never seen muslims Protest and yell theise people dosen´t repesent Islam  



7 Feb 2006 @ 08:50 by Jane D. @64.213.98.17 : Islam is not terrorism
Fight terrorism, fight terrorists and killers themselves but dont fight or insult Islam and majority of Muslims. Be against the bad and respect the good. Messanger Mohammed lived in a different age like any other prophits who call for harmoney, peace and worsiping of one God, morover he didnt call for blood shedding or terrorism  


7 Feb 2006 @ 09:52 by 1 @83.244.85.80 : fghszdfgh
thshsrtjsrtjsrj  


7 Feb 2006 @ 11:05 by Rich_S @195.160.253.3 : These cartoons are not simple insults
Political cartoons are drawn to make a comment. These particular cartoons (the original 12 published, not the 3 added by Danish Immans which are much worse) are comments on how 12 different cartoonists see the Prophet - understand? They are COMMENTS.

Ok, firstly, non-muslims do not need to follow Islamic law, so the ban on depicting the Prophet Muhammad does not apply do us, and it’s wrong to insist that it does. Same goes to Christians who might get upset over depictions of Christ. Provided it doesn't go too far (by common human standards, not religious standards), cartoonists can use the images and icons of religion to criticise the religion. RELIGION IS FAIR GAME, because each religion is a set of ideas. (If you are wondering about perceived Western double-standards, religion is fair game, but race is not – that’s way we criticise Arabic cartoons of Jews because they fail to make the distinction between ideas and race)

Ok, secondly, given that we can draw Muhammad, how is a cartoonist to depict him? Muhammad isn't regularly drawn, he has no common appearance, which makes him a perfect tool for a cartoonist to use to illustrate a wider point, to comment on something. The cartoon where Muhammad has a bomb for a turban, that is NOT a simple insult, it's a representation. It highlights a wider truth: Islam has been hijacked by extremism. Fundamentalists are using the Islamic faith to justify a terrorist agenda, and normal Muslims have allowed this to happen. I don't blame them - for example, I find the British National Party quite horrible but you won't find me protesting at their meetings. I don't have time to fight a battle against national fascism, I've got to go to work in the morning.

So, this isn’t about insulting Islam, or insulting prophets. Non-Muslims can do that, because they don’t believe in Islam, and aren’t bound to respect your icons. This is about general respect between cultures. The West likes to think we do a good job these days (for example, we have freedom of religion laws) of respecting minorities, although we don’t have a long history of this, but then we are STILL faced with Islamic-terrorism and suicide bombers. This is about how we view Islam – the word “Islam” may originally mean “peace” but that’s not what it stands for anymore. Your religion has been hijacked by fundamentalists and you need to take it back.

You can start by protesting against the throat-cutting brigade.  



7 Feb 2006 @ 11:06 by shimo @62.135.56.28 : Danish Cartoons of prophet mohammed
Insulant fools who don't think we were created for another reason rather than eating, having fun, sex , ...etc. The world was created just like that by chance. Whose sanity should we question now. Try studying Islam and the Koran first, before you judge and say your opinion. Maybe then yuo will understand why muslims feel so offended. I think that any one who agrees with this cartoons about the prophet is an ignorant person. Read and study before you speak!! It's not O.k to get funny about religious matters and say it's a free country.  


7 Feb 2006 @ 12:07 by Mohammad @82.198.3.154 : To Aziz, Danishguy, Lisa,Finish, and all
Aziz you have touched the sensitive point, terrorist group do crimes for the sake of their benefit by the name of Islam, they kill us in Iraq and then they give the percieved idea that they represent Mohammad and his religion. Today the cartoons show no respect to Islam as a peaceful religion since they consider Bin Laden acts a phase of Islam. However, an important question must be raised who supported Bin Laden by weapon and money for years, Is NOT USA. USA supported Bin Laden to get rid of the soviet power in Asia. today BinLaden has goals beyond the goals of USA, the war is between them and those innocents suffering from this war are muslims. Another issue that pushes some muslims against the west is the unrational way the west deal with Islam. All the world must know that Bin LAden is our enemy as muslims more that he is the enemy of wester countries. Lisa have raised the issue of respect, I greatly support her. there is no reason to talk with each other in this way, the terms ("FUCK", "PIGS", "ANIMALS"...) are to be used by people who have no logic to debate. you converstaing in this page please be more civilized to read about Islam, about the history of Islam as well the histroy of terrorism to understand its causes and forsee the way to avoid more terroris. and whatever was your point of view there will be no problem with it if it was raised with "RESPECT". AnoterhDnish guy answered Aziz by asking why muslims are still yelling for killing. AnotherDanishGuy, yes still there are people yelling for killing. this is because of several factors: 1) the reaction of western people with the cartoons and the fact that they did not understand the level of hurt the cartoons caused raised high level of hate against countries as Danemark and remember that muslims are hurt by USA and the Western countires in the issue of occupying IRAQ, Afkhanistan, and supporting Israel. 2) the level of support of some western countries to Israel and USA and a major number of muslims feel that the west always tend to disciminate them and their weekness as poor and occupied people psychologically push them to tend to terrorism. the above two points reflect the tendency for terrorism and raises the issue that terrorism problem can not be solved by occupying countries as IRAQ and Afkhanistan, it must be done by solving the reasons of this terrorism. Finally I want to add, Danemark apology was not clear and it was somehow late, the problem became wider because another contries papers followed Danemark Journal to publish the cartoons. I suggest a solution where the united nations are asked to meet and state a law to define rules that will define baorders for speech freedom and define a level of repect to religions especially because globalization is not just to speak via internet and business, we muslims have our traditions and for the sake of humanity all the world must understand our religion and our traditions to reach with other a point where there is no place to terrorism.  


7 Feb 2006 @ 12:14 by Rich_S @195.160.253.3 : Shimo
Hi Shimo,

You don't need to be a Muslim to believe there is something more to life than fun, sex and etc. In fact, that perfectly illustrates religious imperialism, which I find actually pretty offensive myself - I don't want to be converted by you.

I've had more than a passing glance at Islam and the Koran, and looked at other religions too. The conclusion I came to was that every religion is just a pre-packaged set of beliefs and morals, and that I don't subscribe to any of them. Historically religion was a postive guiding force for civilisation as a whole, but we don't need ancient stories to illustrate our morals any more.

Or at least, I don't. If you do, then fine. If you belief killing is wrong, we are on the same page, because I also believe killing is wrong - but my belief about killing didn't come as a package together with a belief that some kind of god told a man to say it was wrong. I take great offence at your insistance that I should treat the fairy-tale stories that you think are absolute truth with respect, as if they had some kind of value to me. They do not.  



7 Feb 2006 @ 13:09 by obaid essa @195.229.242.52 : why only islam
As a muslim I feel sorry for all of you people because every one of you he looks at islam as enemy and I know why because there is al-qaeeda / bin laden and al-zarqawi yes they are belong to muslims counrty so what ? there are more than one billion muslim in the world who respect Jesus/Moses and all the prophets and over that they respect every bodys religion, faith and belief. I would like to invite all the world to visit my country DUBAI it is a muslim country and who ever come there he will see the real islam , not the islam you see in the news media. only at that time who ever want to say any thing about islam he will be free to say it because he will know what to say about islam. and I think this is what every body know it BE FAIR BE FOR YOU JUDGE AND TO BE FAIR YOU HAVE TO KNOW ISLAM. and to go back to the freedom in the westren or in the world who can make any funny cartoons about the holocaust? I CHALLENGE ALL OF YOU IF ANY ONE CAN DO IT!! so where is the freedom or it's just you want to use it against the muslim when ever you want !!  


7 Feb 2006 @ 13:23 by Another Danish Guy @80.164.65.4 : to Mohammad
Denmark have not said Denmark is sorry, caurse Denmark did NOT make those cartoons, that´s the whole point, a newspaper made them in Denmark the goverment can´t prevent a newspaper in making drawings or anything else if the newspaper broke the law like they might have done in this case this could be seen as blasfemy (or what the word is) then the offended people can take it to the court and then the court deside if the law has been broken, it has nothing to do with the Danish goverment.
the newspaper said sorry to muslims the muslims here accepted the appology, but the paper will probaly still be brought for the court.
And what i wanted to make a point as well is there are racisme all over the world, but if people are unsure of what to think, i belive seeing people yelling for the murder and destruction of Denmark probaly will seal the deal. I am no racist i understand how the drawings can be offensive for Muslims but this surely could have been handled without burning Danish buildings or attacking Danish people. Denmark is not sorry caurse the drawings was not a statement from Denmark in anyway, plz try to understand if laws been broken here people bring it to the court if they wish actions to be done.  



7 Feb 2006 @ 14:56 by Ahmed @71.247.185.181 : I hope this helps some of you understand
Keep in mind, that knowing about the religion, would be better then talking about it without knowing about the facts.

We like making sweeping declarations about freedom of speech but that right is fettered by laws of libel and hate, and other factors.

In newspapers, cartoons are routinely rejected for reasons of taste or because they may be unfair or unnecessarily hurtful. A good editor errs on the side of pushing the limits of freedom. But on occasion, she says no.

The artist may not like the call but must live with it. The drawing is his but the space in which it is to run is the newspaper's.

The Star's legendary cartoonist Dunc Macpherson once argued that I was misguided to have axed his day's work on the basis that his premise was all wrong. "Artists are not bound by facts," he growled. But the paper is, I said.

The Danish paper that invoked freedom of speech to justify caricaturing the Prophet Muhammad is, thus, only half right. But let's say that it did have an absolute right. Equally, though, Muslims had a right to be offended. Defenders of the first principle have had difficulty acknowledging the second.

"Why the fuss? These are only cartoons," many said of the Arab boycott of Danish products.

The peaceful consumer revolt was a legitimate response (until overtaken by gun-toting hotheads issuing dire warnings).

Yet many Europeans derided the boycott, with the unmistakable underlying message: "We can treat you the way we want and thou shall shut up."

Those days are gone. Still, why do Muslims react so strongly?

By now, readers know that Islam forbids depictions of the Prophet. Non-Muslims can no more mock that than Muslims can deride some aspect of the Christian or Jewish faith.

Imagery was not the only problem with the Danish cartoons. They were insulting, which is, of course, the point of a cartoon. But they also portrayed the Prophet as a terrorist and, by extension, all Muslims, thereby engendering hate against them.

The drawings were hurtful to a people who are, arguably, more attached to their prophet than others may be to theirs.

Each time they say his name, Muslims invoke "peace and blessings" on Muhammad. Nearly 4 million visit his grave in Saudi Arabia every year.

But more than religion, it is geo-politics, past and present, that hangs over the controversy.
A cartoon Thursday in the al-Quds newspaper showed an artist at work at Jyllands-Posten. In the first panel, he rejects a grotesque drawing of a black person: "This is racism." He rejects the second, which equated the Cross of David with the swastika: "This is anti-Semitism." He keeps the longer third panel, of the Prophet's cartoons: "This is freedom of speech."

When Muhammad appeared 600 years after Christ, Europe saw him as an impostor and a false prophet. Pope Innocent III called him the Antichrist. Dante consigned him to the ninth of the 10 ditches of the Inferno. Voltaire, Gibbon, Bacon and others demonized him as the Prince of Darkness or the Beast of the Apocalypse or Mahound.

Such characterizations were used in more muted forms by European colonialists occupying Muslim lands. The bigoted imagery had begun to subside during our contemporary era, only to be resurrected after 9/11.

Go to any bookstore in a European city and you will see anti-Muslim tracts selling well.

Europe's 20 million Muslims have borne the brunt of this Islamophobia, from rightwing anti-immigrant parties and conservative media. Here's a sample from the Danish People's Party: "Muslims who come here reject our culture. Muslim immigration is a way for Muslims to conquer us, just as they have done for the past 1,400 years."

Add to all this some contemporary realities affecting Muslims.

Iraq was illegally and unjustly invaded and remains occupied, with contemptuous disregard for Iraqi lives. Palestinians have just been warned they may be starved because they dared to elect Hamas. Iran is being isolated over its nuclear intentions, even though it has not violated the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty it has signed, while non-signatories Israel and India enjoy full American backing.

The arguments for and against those policies aside, there's no doubt that they have left Arabs/Muslims feeling under siege.

They see double standards in the Danish affair as well.

A cartoon Thursday in the al-Quds newspaper showed an artist at work at Jyllands-Posten. In the first panel, he rejects a grotesque drawing of a black person: "This is racism." He rejects the second, which equated the Cross of David with the swastika: "This is anti-Semitism." He keeps the longer third panel, of the Prophet's cartoons: "This is freedom of speech."

Conversely, the criticism from Arabs/Muslims has sounded hypocritical, given their own intolerance and an ongoing anti-Israeli polemic. Much of that is encouraged by unelected, despotic governments keen on diverting domestic anger abroad.

This context shows there is a great deal of mutual ignorance. However, it does not prove any inherent incompatibility between Muslims and non-Muslims, as extremists on both sides would have us believe.  



7 Feb 2006 @ 15:53 by gls @212.33.117.250 : peace
1. THE EMBODIMENT OF TAO
Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself.
Even the finest name is insufficient to define it.
Without words, the Tao can be experienced,
and without a name, it can be known.

To conduct one's life according to the Tao,
is to conduct one's life without regrets;
to realize that potential within oneself
which is of benefit to all.

Though words or names are not required
to live one's life this way,
to describe it, words and names are used,
that we might better clarify
the way of which we speak,
without confusing it with other ways
in which an individual might choose to live.

Through knowledge, intellectual thought and words,
the manifestations of the Tao are known,
but without such intellectual intent
we might experience the Tao itself.

Both knowledge and experience are real,
but reality has many forms,
which seem to cause complexity.

By using the means appropriate,
we extend ourselves beyond
the barriers of such complexity,
and so experience the Tao.

Up to Index

2. LETTING GO OF COMPARISONS

We cannot know the Tao itself,
nor see its qualities direct,
but only see by differentiation,
that which it manifests.

Thus, that which is seen as beautiful
is beautiful compared with that
which is seen as lacking beauty;
an action considered skilled
is so considered in comparison
with another, which seems unskilled.

That which a person knows he has
is known to him by that which he does not have,
and that which he considers difficult
seems so because of that which he can do with ease.
One thing seems long by comparison with that
which is, comparatively, short.
One thing is high because another thing is low;
only when sound ceases is quietness known,
and that which leads
is seen to lead only by being followed.
In comparison, the sage,
in harmony with the Tao,
needs no comparisons,
and when he makes them, knows
that comparisons are judgements,
and just as relative to he who makes them,
and to the situation,
as they are to that on which
the judgement has been made.

Through his experience,
the sage becomes aware that all things change,
and that he who seems to lead,
might also, in another situation, follow.
So he does nothing; he neither leads nor follows.
That which he does is neither big nor small;
without intent, it is neither difficult,
nor donᇘŮwi?? e��e.��r ଯ> His task completed, he then lets go of it;
seeking no credit, he cannot be discredited.
Thus, his teaching lasts for ever,
and he is held in high esteem.

Up to Index

3. WITHOUT SEEKING ACCLAIM

By retaining his humility,
the talented person who is also wise,
reduces rivalry.

The person who possesses many things,
but does not boast of his possessions,
reduces temptation, and reduces stealing.

Those who are jealous of the skills or things
possessed by others,
most easily themselves become possessed by envy.

Satisfied with his possessions,
the sage eliminates the need to steal;
at one with the Tao,
he remains free of envy,
and has no need of titles.

By being supple, he retains his energy.
He minimizes his desires,
and does not train himself in guile,
nor subtle words of praise.
By not contriving, he retains
the harmony of his inner world,
and so remains at peace within himself.

It is for reasons such as these,
that an administration
which iᇘŮco??er��d  



7 Feb 2006 @ 17:02 by trse @212.33.117.250 : ujhgfj
jojo  


7 Feb 2006 @ 17:06 by abu @212.33.117.242 : test
success  


7 Feb 2006 @ 17:57 by LWR @212.90.65.157 : Good alternative
Living without religion.  


7 Feb 2006 @ 18:44 by Tom (finnish) @82.181.27.45 : SEE GOOD IN BAD
Dear Mohammad, Lisa and others

When Im reading these last messages on this page, I can see some light and that we have some kind of direction here. Of course we still have many disagreements, but the one who is thinking that this would be solved in a week or in ten years is too optimist or crazy. Most important is to find a direction, which pleases everyone.

Mohammad, you went deeper to my point where I asked, who is really to blame of these situations. I mostly agree with you, there are many unacceptable things happend in our close history example war in Afganistan and iraq. Yes there were problems in those countries, but when we look at for example Iraq now, the situation there is probably a lot worse. And when we go even deeper we found US and CIA and their cooperations with Bin Laden in Afganistan. Those people and their actions have a connection to things we unfortunately have to meet today.

The terrorists who are planning attacks against innocent people in Europe, Iraq and all over the world must be stopped somehow. But we must also look in the history to see who should we really blame for terrorism and sufferings all over the world. The cartoons were only a unfortunate and sad example, an incident which would have probably happend some other day anyway.

Now maybe we can't get all of those from history into the court, but what we can is with constructive, peaceful and polite conversations like we are trying to do here today we can unite against those evil forces. We must make the difference between PEOPLE who really want peace, respect, and politeness for everyone in our world no matter of the religion, from THOSE who don't want peace and just use others to get more power for themselves. We have seen both of those people on this page.

What I disagree with you Mohammad is: when you said the problem became wider when also other newspapers published those cartoons. I don't think that would have happened without the violent attacks against embassies in Middle East. Whatever, It is already happened. You said the solution for this would be a law, which would put boarders to media what they can publish. I disagree! There already are laws which take a stand on sensitive cases. And this probably is one of those cases. Now I don't think we need more laws, because I believe more reasonability and respect of individuals. I believe that this kind of responsibilities like respect everyone, no matter who they are, are things that we should all learn without any laws and government interferes. Maybe we have different ways to communicate, but we don't want to hurt anybody by being disrespect. It has been working very well here, of course there are exeptions. But those exceptions have been solved mostly peaceful ways. This is the way people learn to really respect others, not because government and laws tells you to.

Now there are of course a new situation when cultures and religions are colliding because of internet and globalisation. The issue of setting boarders to the press and give an opportunity to government to interfere what the media can say is preventing the free thinking of individuals. Because what we know about the world around us, most of information comes from the media. If the government has an opportunity to interfere what the media can say, leads to situation where government has also keys into peoples minds.

For conclusion: Now we have seen how those cartoons only hurted people which is of course never good. But if this hadn't happened, I would not have been going on these constructive conversations with YOU all. This case is of course not over yet, but when next time something like this happens, and I promise you, even that I am an optimist, it will!, I hope people are having these kind of constructive conversations. And now I'm not talking of those people who just used anger and very unpolite words to destroy this conversation. I'm sorry if there are big criticism and maybe some anger also in my messages, that's because I was angry and I still am. But showing it like some people here have done is unacceptable, those insults were a lot worse than these cartoons. This is my opinion.  



7 Feb 2006 @ 20:08 by Balance @208.29.146.18 : Stupid
Is this all you have to talk about???

Idiot’s, there are children starving to death out there!!!!

As for this subject Daniel You put it best!! "the caricatures were made not of Muslims but of their eternally living Allah who should be perfectly capable of dealing with those that sinned against him!"

The butchers of children can't be blessed!!!! By Gods right hand islam's reign of terror IS COMING TO AN END!!!!!  



7 Feb 2006 @ 20:38 by hamid @217.219.33.1 : its from us to u god
hi im irani and i love u spcel hosaei
no one cant tell you are teerorist
and they know
all lovers  



7 Feb 2006 @ 23:03 by A Dane @80.164.65.4 : weird
/Keep to forgiveness (O Mohammed), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant. /- The Koran, Chapter 7, Verse 199

Sound like wise words to me wonder why those muslims that are that offended and yell for death and war, don´t lisen to the koran themself if the belive that strongly  



7 Feb 2006 @ 23:42 by SHAYKHOON` @82.201.222.25 : weird
hey man i wanna tell u somth look ....1st we are extreemly peacfull how ever what Israel is trying hard to show by making every terror in the world in our name ...however ...even in the univers nature for every peace thier is limits coz we are not fools we are ppl just like u when interfearing our red line ( insulting our relegion) u cross all the borders to our rage .... we never accept any funny jokes about relegion if u dont understand that concept then moke ur own relegion and leave us alone ......  


7 Feb 2006 @ 23:57 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : I am glad
Hello all!
I am glad to see that we are turning this into a calm and informative messageboard again. Because of that, I can learn many things from muslims that write on this page, and hopefully you can learn something from me.
Mohammed, I agree with Tom that a UN law is not the way to go. We have to be able to respect each other without laws. And I want to stress the point that there are laws regarding our freedom of speech. You cannot say whatever you want, and whether Jyllands-Posten broke those laws or not WILL BE TESTED in a court of law.
Ahmed pointed out some very important things. I really do think that these pictures, by themselves, are not the main reason why some people react in a violent manner. The muslim world has not been treated with respect, by many leaders of the western world for many, many years. This publication was yet another punch in the face for many poor people that already lead a very hard life, with war and not enough money to get food for the day. Many muslims, at least in Sweden, already feel that they are not as much worth as a person with a swedish name. And to kick someone, that is already lying down, is not respect in any way. I have seen the pictures, and I understand that many muslims are offended. Since no one knows what Mohammed looked like, the drawers just drew an arabic man with a bomb on his head. This can be interprested as every arabic man is a terrorist. But since it was supposed to be Muhammed they were drawing, it could be interpreted as the whole muslim world are terrorists. I truly do not think that that was the intention of the drawer, and I personally do not see it that way. But I can sure understand why many muslims interpreted it that way. For years, many in the western world have looked at every muslim thinking that he might be a suicide-bomber. Of course, you'd get offended. I would.
On the other hand, once again, it needs to be pointed out that this is not the opinion of the whole of the Danish people. The same way muslims don't want to be generalized, Danish people doesn't want to be generalized.
Balance says that why do we discuss this, when there are children starving in the world. It is not that simple, and the two things are very much connected. At least there is a connection between why some muslims react with violence, and the fact that there is famine in the world, even though the western world produces enough food to make sure everybody in this world is not hungry.
I think there are two points in this issue: 1) Is it right or wrong to publish cartoons of Muhammed, according to the freedom of speech law? and 2) Why do some muslims react with violence? Separate the two, and you might start to see things in a different perspective.
So I ask of all of you, take the blinkers from your eyes, and put yourself in the other partys shoes for a while. Then maybe, when this is all over, we can all respect each other even though our opinions might differ.

To all the muslims writing on this page: Have I interpreted the situation correctly? Feel free to explain and correct me, if you think I have not.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 00:07 by vibrani : Wanna talk koran?
let's talk Koran and Bible:
The two brothers (Abraham and Ishmael) and their descendants were not to fight over the inheritance, but rather"compete in good works," as the Koran, Ishmael's guide book, so aptly says. GOOD WORKS, NOT EVIL, NOT HATEFUL.

Koran clearly states (Sura 5:21) that God granted the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel and ordered them to settle there. In addition, it is predicted that before the end of days, God will bring the Children of Israel to retake possession of the Land, gathering them from the different countries and nations (Sura 17:104).

Many Muslims are not obeying their koran.

Shaykoon, you're an ignorant, uninformed, intolerent and hateful hypocrite.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 00:13 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : lisa
what u have said was exactly perfect ...and am gonna answer ur questions as in my own opinion as one muslim........1. i do understand that not all danish ppl are risponsible ...as well as when we protested they may have got the idea wrong that we anna force them in what to say....that can be in thier account the miss in unerstanding between us ,
in our part .......just imagin that the most dearest thing u will ever hold in ur memory the thing that can bring u happyness even n hell (in our belife)...that thing is been moked that can just push rage fro us + we are in the defending situation .
as violance is not at allk a part of what we must do or what we were teached
...........last i see this as a miss understanding done by outter hand ...(??) i dont wanna interfear another parts in the conv. by saying who i think responsible..... but i hope denmark understands what they have just touched in us and apologize in a satisfing way to these millions .....on the other hand i hope the angry ppl ( of muslims) act better i any bad situation than destroying and such......  



8 Feb 2006 @ 00:17 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : vibrani
complete reading u will find that GOD found that they were useless to his cause so he left them and picked us instead they were givin the land when they were chosen now we are givin the land ......(in Quraan)
but lets talk about this later ....one prob. at a time  



8 Feb 2006 @ 00:21 by Ray Charles Istre @71.40.42.126 : Jesus with nuke?
Are the jihadists really upset because it was just a little old timey bomb depicted in Mohammeds turbin instead of a real nuke like the "Christian" nations have?

As an American artist, should I depict Jesus with a nuke protruding out of his cloak?  



8 Feb 2006 @ 00:25 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : ray
you accept drawing and moking ur relegion we dont that meanes that u wanna get funny just moke ur relegion and leave us alone we never moked nobodeys relegion and said thats freedom ...no that just crosses the line.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 00:30 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : SHAYKHOON
In the beginning I was totally against an apology, but now I more and more see that there is a need for it. I truly believe that the pictures were not intended to cause this split between the muslim world and the western world. The intention was not to deliberately hurt the feelings of the muslim world. That is a matter of different interpretation of the same thing.
I also know that Jyllands-Postens editor has apologized for hurting the feelings of many muslims. And once again, the matter is being tested in a court of law. Personally I don't see what else they / we can do. Please let me know what you think would be a satisfying apology.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 00:30 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : +rey
u are very proud to have nukes ...... its a wepon used just to make disasters unlike any wepon this is the worst of the all u doomed millions by it in japan and ur so proud ..........how could u ....and u call ussss terorists!!  


8 Feb 2006 @ 00:33 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : Again... SHAYKHOON
Look! These generalization are again what we don't want. I am from a western country, I DO NOT LIKE NUKES! You are muslim, you are NOT a terrorist!
When you generalize you can only go bad! Try to open your mind to that.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 00:35 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : lisa
1st ....when this cartoons were made it was kinda contest so it was intended ...i see that the cartoonests must be punished ....(not like prison or somth ) as well as an apology from the paper itself .....we dont want problems we just wanna end this matter that is a black usless spot in history of humanity for both of us.....  


8 Feb 2006 @ 00:38 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : And as for Ray Charles
Why are you doing this? We are trying to have a productive conversation here, that you actually may learn something from. Until you can speak your mind in a respectful and intelligent manner, be quiet!  


8 Feb 2006 @ 00:39 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : lisa
sorry for generalizing  


8 Feb 2006 @ 00:57 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : SHAYKHOON
As I said before, Jyllands-Posten has already made an apology.
As for the drawer being punished. I think that is where are views of life and right and wrong differ. In the Scandinavian countries, you are protected by law to express your opinion. That includes drawing a picture. On the other hand, showing it off to the rest of the world, as Jyllands-Posten did, might not be allowed, and as I said that will be tested in a court of law. But according to Danish law you can not punish someone for making a drawing. And I have to say that I agree on that. Part of living in a democracy is being able to do have your own opinion. So, as for punishment of the drawer, to be honest, that's not gonna happen. Just to let you know what to expect. Actually I think that the people who drew the pictures (there were actually several of them) did apologize. Unfortunately, I don't think that that apology has reached the muslim world outside of Denmark.
I want to add, that these pictures were published in september. After that, Danish muslims protested, and an apology was made from the paper, which the muslims in Denmark accepted.
The cartoons was not made to be a part in a contest. That is wrong information. The editor of Jyllands-Posten asked these artist if they could draw some pictures of Muhammed, because he was afraid that the paper was cencuring itself on what to publish and what not. Since self-cencuring, and cencuring in general, is a threat against democracy, he tried to make sure this was not the case. For people living in non-democracies, this can be very hard to understand, I know that. All I can ask is that you educate yourself in what it means to be a democracy.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:05 by Roxana @67.68.73.120 : to shaykoon
brother, calm down! I converted to Islam, and am european by birth....are you going to tell me I like nukes too?
Not everybody thinks muslims are terrorists...hello I converted.
What you are exhibiting is exactly why there are problems: you get angry and jump to conclusions.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:06 by ming : Communication is difficult
It is strange and puzzling how it really is apples and oranges we're talking here.

I've seen now many postings and statements from Muslims saying more or less "Why? Why? Why would you insult our prophet like that?". Essentially "Why do you choose to be so mean to us?". "Why do you send such a hateful message to all Muslims?" I see people being sad and puzzled that westeners use their freedom of speech to attack their beloved prophet.

On the other side we see something totally different. It is apples versus oranges. The two versions of what happened aren't even close.

Denmark wasn't sending a message to Muslims. The Danish government wasn't sending a message. The newspaper wasn't even sending a message to all Muslims. The message they were sending wasn't an insult to Muslims. It wasn't an insult to Muhammed either. It wasn't meant to put down Islam or Muhammed. It wasn't directed at Muslims. It was part of a discussion about censorship and freedom of expression. It started because the author of a children's book found that potential illustrators were afraid of illustrating his book. None of which was meant as an insult to anybody.

It is a misunderstanding.

If person A tries to communicate to person B, he probably has a certain intention of what he's trying to convey. Maybe he's praising person B, maybe he's insulting him, maybe he's giving him some information, maybe he's saying hello. But B might not receive what was intended. Maybe he'll receive an insult when it was meant to be a hello. Maybe he didn't understood it at all.

It is unfortunate if person B receives an insult when it wasn't an insult that was sent to him. Maybe person A was a bit sloppy in sending his communication, so he didn't succeed in getting it delivered right.

But person B can not be sure that he has received the meaning that was intended. Particularly, if person A protests and says that's certainly not what he meant, there's no point in B insisting that he KNOWS exactly what A meant. Then we're no longer talking about communication.

So, here, a lot of people insist that they have received an insult, even though no insult was sent in their direction. And even though that might have started as a mis-communication and a mis-understanding, it is now something else. No amount of explanations seem to be able to clear up that it didn't really happen.

"Why did you insult our prophet?" We didn't. We don't know you, we don't really know your prophet, and we don't know how he looks, and we didn't have the slightest intention of telling you that your prophet sucks. And it wasn't "we" who did it, anyway. You misunderstood it. A newspaper published some drawings. Somebody told you what they meant. They were wrong.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:13 by Roxana @67.68.73.120 : to Ming
hey ming

I agree, sometimes you say something, but it gets interpreted in the wrong way by the receiver.
However, even if the intent was not to offend, and even if it might have been out of ignorance, in publishing these pictures, Denmark has stumbled across a taboo. Like if you accidentally slap your neighbour, you appologize, no? I think it should be the same. At the same time, muslims need to appologize for the angry/violent reaction...it goes both ways. No?  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:13 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : lisa.......if so
about Muslms accepting the pics ....thats is not right they reqwested to stop such an act from many ministers ....but no one listened...
about that contest maby ur right ....i dont belive half wat is said in here ...except in aljazera....however...if the drawers of the pics and the paper apologized than the problem is in miss in reciving info.
actualy if what u say is true then we have delevired our masseege to the world that our relegion is not to be moked.
and i tell u this with all do respect if i make sure that there was an apology from all who were risponsible then first thibg i ll do tommorow i ll go to the next supermarkets andtell them to resume buying danish goods and to get things back the way they were
last my ppl used to say (Egyptians) maby a bad thing that helps....(pardon my bad english) maby we met eachother as west and east in this huge miss contact understanding and link between both of us .... maby u learned somth from us as we did from u....  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:14 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : Communication is difficult
Amen!  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:16 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : roxana
am very sorry but i never meant to generalize though i did .......  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:16 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : Thank you ming
Thank you ming! You are absolutely right, we are talking apples and oranges here. On the other hand, that is easy for you and me to say, because we were not on the offended side. Yes, we speak apples and oranges, and therefore it is soo important that we try to listen to each other now, and understand what both sides are trying to communicate. Thank you again!  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:17 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : Communication is difficult
amen .....me too :)  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:22 by Roxana @67.68.73.120 : to shaykhoon
salam shaykhoon

you see how we get angry because there is a small group of muslims who are extreme and ruin it for everybody else? Well there was a small group of journalists who "spoke" for all of Denmark. We have to be careful when we jump to conclusion....muslims hate being stereotyped, well so does everybody else.
Don't worry about the comment lol.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:25 by vibrani : It's impossible to get through
to people, aka Shaykoon, who actually believe that God chose them over everybody else. Impossible. Impossible to talk with people who don't even understand their own religion yet preach like they do, or who are totally unaccepting the fact that there are millions of other views.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:29 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : vibrani
with all do respect i am starting to think of u as an outsider who just wanna bring back the miss understanding and just keep us in conflect here...plz be quite and kindly just leave this convesation  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:29 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : SHAYKHOON
Hey, I think we got a breakthrough here! Classic example of how listening and communicating can solve problems! We did it, SHAYKHOON! Be happy, I am! We listened to each other, and talked about it in a respectful way, and now I understand why you are so hurt, and you understand why this all happened in the first place. We did good! *handshake*
Thank you for listening to me. And I hope that that apology will reach your part of the world soon. Take care!  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:31 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : roxana
salam roxana and peace be with u....  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:33 by Roxana @67.68.73.120 : to vibrani
first off, I've been reading your comments for a while now, and I'm getting annoyed. Can you stop insulting others?? Like I know you're mad, but just shut up and calm down first, please!!! If you can't see that people accept other religions, BUT THEN GET OFFENDED WHEN THEY FEEL DISRESPECTED, then how on earth are you ever going to solve any issues??  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:35 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : vibrani
Hey, vibrani. Who's the one that it's impossible to get through to? Why is your view of things the only correct one? Maybe you are wrong, maybe shaykhoon is wrong, maybe there is no right, maybe there is no wrong. Come on, darling, open your mind to other views of the world than your own. It could actually be interesting. And I'm not saying, be a muslim, I'm just saying that maybe you can learn something about life if you talk to one in a sensible, respectful way.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:35 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : lisa....paece be with u
lisa thank you and all the ones who have been very civilized in comunicating here ...i am happy . and our prob. is solved ( in gods name) may peace be with u and i hope nothing els happens between us again we can live friendly ( in GODS will ) from now on....:)))  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:42 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : SHAYKHOON
Peace be with you too!  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:44 by Roxana @67.68.73.120 : to lise and shaykoon
salam shaykoon and lise
yes our problem is solved. Shaykoon, it's a muslim's duty to be calm when faced with anger and injustice. Inshallah everything will be resolved. But for now it's important for you to go and communicate this to others. Lise, same for you babe!! I know you feel like an island in the middle of a hostile ocean (trust me I feel the same as a convert to islam of european birth) but you're doing the right thing. Shaykhoon, you're in the middle east ya, Egypt? Communicate with people around you to stop this stupid violence, me I'm in Canada, I'll do the same, and Lise, you're in Sweden so you do the same. It will work in the end.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:46 by vibrani : Lisa
look at his pattern - he is only willing to hear you out and maybe see you as a human being if you sympathize with him. ONLY WITH HIM. The only other agenda he has is to manipulate to make people accept his radical views. He's not the least bit interested in alternative ways of thinking, of compassion, of understanding. Open your mind, Lisa, and see what's going on. He's filled with hatred and self-righteousness and stupidity. Because if one has a brain, one questions, one seeks answers for one's self, one doesn't just follow what they've been taught all of their lives unless they're a mindless robot. The guy can't even admit he has no understanding of his own religion of or facts of history or current affairs. Did you see how long it took him to admit how women are treated in Muslim culture? Denial! It's impossible to get through to people like this. They don't use their heart. They're selfish and they're playing you.

I tried to have a civilized discussion with him - he turns it always back into hatred for anything not of his particular brand of Islam.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:50 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : Roxana ..and lisa
am on ur side thats my mission now is to stop ppl here from pushing more violance ....we were never ordered to ... may GOD bless ur way roxana and gaurd u ...lisa ur job now is to make ur ppl understand that it was just miss communication as urs roxana....may GOD bless u both ...and last peace be with u all ......vibrani too...
( by the way lisa i didnt know ur from sweeden but i have frnds thier :) )  



8 Feb 2006 @ 01:53 by vibrani : Shaykhoon
do you also send wishes of peace to Jews and Christians and Buddhists?  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:57 by hulya kesmen @85.101.5.0 : NO PREJUDICE PLEASE!!!
When I first saw the cartoons of Mohammad I happened to think that "oh! this is Usame Bin Laden!" and as a Muslim I got very angry. How do the Danes and other people not understand the reason of our anger? We are really fed up with the prejudice of the "West" against us. Just because of some deviant "so-called" pious muslims, the name of Islam is being slandered. This is not fair. I have read Koran(Quran),the life of Mohammad, the history of Islam and the sayings of Mohammad several times. None of them includes such silly things that are commited by those who disrepute our belief. Unlike the claims, Mohammad never said negative words against good things. He never degraded women; on the contrary he told the men to respect them. He was against blood feud. He told his followers to help the poor, etc. And now, while knowing all these facts how can we be silent? I am angry, but I don't blame you. All we have prejudices and misunderstand something just because of the wrong models shown to us. However,we can change our minds. I want you to read the sayings and life of our respectable prophet. Especially his farewell speech. Also, I have read the booklet of a great novelist, Tolstoy, in which he wrote the sayings of Mohammad and Tolstoy's own thoughts about Islam. I suggest you to read this important booklet. We real Muslims can no longer let you make fun of such a perfect prophet. First you know him well, then you'll have the right to speak. You cannot judge him and all the Muslims and Islam by looking at the murderers hiding behind the name of Islam. They are just the ones who abuse our religion in order to justify their crimes and heresies. Do not be fooled..  


8 Feb 2006 @ 01:59 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : vibrani
1st
te thing that u call us robots by doing is our relegion we beleave that if we follow it we go to heaven...u dont belive that so what its ok but let us do...about hatred ...i never hated anybody in my life .... i never said anything ba to u ...+ when ur saying these words ur smelling all racism i donno whats wrong with u but i am still happy of the breakthrough ....not one opinion will make me fall and soon u will understand......  



8 Feb 2006 @ 02:01 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : vibrani
as for chrestians in egypt here we have lots of chrestians and they are like my breathren ....and as for jewes ....sorry never been honored to meet one :)  


8 Feb 2006 @ 02:05 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : vibrani
and just knew the lastt word ... the only budahiest i ever met was on tv ...:) and he was very king and good person...he was the delaylama  


8 Feb 2006 @ 02:10 by vibrani : I would like to believe you
because it's a far cry from the stuff you wrote previously. The Dalai Lama is a very good man. He's a spiritual and religious leader and can laugh at himself and also speak out when something isn't right, and NOT use violence as a solution to anything. He teaches compassion.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 02:16 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.222.25 : i guess am over here for now
yes he is vibrani ....there was a show lately about heaven they asked him a shaik a pope and a jew priest (sorry donnno his exact name) and actualy i liked the delay lamma the most ( as a person ).....
so i have finnished my part for today ......see u all later and peace be with u ALL  



8 Feb 2006 @ 02:20 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : vibrani
vibrani, honey... that's the beauty of living in a democracy... you are allowed to speak your mind.
Did you question yourself why he returned your comments with hatred? could it be that your comments show that you do not respect him? That you in fact dislike muslims, and think that they are stupid? If someone says they don't like you, or say that all your beliefs and opinions are wrong, and that any person with a brain should know that, you'd be pretty defensive as well.
I don't think that he is filled with hatred. He proved that by listening to me, and respectfully communicate his feelings to me.
Once again vibrani, you have to separate the regular person with islamic beliefs, from the maniacs who bomb embassies on TV. Those people only use the religion to get power. You might benefit from reading up a little bit on islam, and maybe talk to a muslim of your community. If you can see past your fears, that is. Because that is what I think this boils down to. Fear.
Do you really think that your way of doing things is gonna lead to a world that can live in peace, side-by-side, and respect and accept each other? That by accusing muslims of being stupid, because they don't see things your ways, you're gonna solve the problem?
The thing is that if you study the Quraan, you will see that you are not allowed to force islam upon anyone. The Quraan speaks of respect for other people, respect for other religions. Again you have to separate this from the people that think that they can gain power by violence. Those people do not follow the Quraan.
The fact that many women are treated badly in arabic coutries is often a result of traditions and culture, not the religion itself.
You claim to be educated, but to me it seems you have only read the books that agree with you. That is not a way to educate yourself.
As for Shaykhoon, he just wants to be accepted, just as you and me want to be accepted.
To say that he is stupid, is not gonna get you where you want to go. There is only one earth, so maybe we should try and live here without throwing pies in each others faces all the time...  



8 Feb 2006 @ 02:25 by vibrani : Lisa
read back to the beginning of my conversation with him - you'll see differently, perhaps. Please don't teach me how to see people. You're not aware of who I am and what I know and what I do. Gad, you're so way off the mark.

Did you read my article, Lisa? My last resort is calling someone stupid, but when their actions and words are stupid, yup. Shaykhoon wants to be accepted? He was, but he turned it against people here, back and forth. No one said he couldn't be a Muslim, but to preach hatered and threats and violence and lies - that's too much to expect me to accept.

As for how women are treated, it is a combination of culture with religion, religion plays a HUGE role in it.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 02:39 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : For hulya kesmen
Hi! I think you should read my discussion with SHAYKHOON and also ming's and roxana's comments on this messageboard (from today). I think that you will be surprised and happy to see what we have accomplished.
There will always be prejudice people that don't agree with you, that will not think that your prophet is the greatest of all, but still you have to respect that. Actually it's your duty as a muslim, have I been told by my muslim friend Roxana. By doing so you will put yourself above the violence and bad-mouthing. There will also be people, like me, that don't agree with you about religion, but respect your beliefs, and are sorry that feelings were hurt, when that was not the intention (refer to mings talk about apples and oranges).
I agree with you that education is important, but it cannot go one-way. To understand why the western world reacted the way it has, please read up on democracy. I would also like to add, that many Scandinavians are afraid that extremists will hurt our countries now. That fear is just as evident as your feeling of insult. Many people cannot see past their fears and stop generalizing. But being here, reading and posting comments on this messageboard, is a step in the right direction.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 02:40 by Redco @62.114.93.73 : for who says Islam is terrorism


Hello all,

i want to talk about what i read here , so i would like you to read what i will say
and think about it with fair and open mind , thanks in advance

to start with terrorism is one of the most unliked , hated thing whatever its reasons
there is NO RELIGON order or accept it , it is something totaly forbidden and unaccepted
by all Religons , all Religons are for One GOD , One Creator , whom made those religons
how can God order his people to do bad thing in his religons ????
from this i start talking about why do ppl back the terrorism to Islam and Muslims
Islam never accepted terrorism or ordered it , over all the Islamic History terrorism is something bad
evil and never accepted , if we will talk about terrorism it is not something related to religon or country
or skin color or person clothes , it is related to a group of sick minded people whom went against the rules,laws
and God's orders in all his religons , it cant be related to a relgion because some of the people who did it are
believers of this religon

look at your fingers in the same hand , the finger prints are they the same ??? they are fingers of the same hand , same blood same everything
are they the same ??? , even twins arent the same , not cuz one or more bad person did something wrong which is already
against the religon( God's Law) and humans made law , a whole Religon or country said to be so


a question it is called "Religon" whats the meaning of this word , can someone answer me ??? how can this word
be related to something bad or evil ??? , i want you to think about it for a while deep thinking

once a person who is terrorist which is something evil and bad , he is not a good person , he has no religon cuz
his religon whatever it is doesn't accept it, so simply we can say that a specific religon is terrorism , read, know
and understand the Religon history and bases before you say it is something

if we will talk about terrorism and freedom , first i would like you to see what happen to us in Iraq,Palastien
and other countries , see these pictures as an example of "Freedom Of Your Countries In Ours" , which the some
TV-news channels in your countries doesnt want you to see it

[link]

after you read it

i want to ask few questions

is this the freedom you want in our countries and talk about it ???
killing incent people?? killing men ?? rape women ??? cutting a child who is 2 days birth into two halves infront of
his parents ???

how could you say that it is freedom , is this your freedom you are talking about , the freedom which we dont have

may i ask how can be a girl going to school at morning got shot by a sniper in her head from a tower , cuz he
thought she is a threat OMG!!!!! whats this ??? tell me !

may i ask how can a child who is 2 days birth cutten into 2 havles , WHY ??? tell me WHY?? is the reason that
you think that he may be bad person ?!!! comeon whats this ?? someone explain it to me

may i ask how can women get raped by soldiers one after another ???????? is this your freedom ?? rape our women , sisters
mothers , daughters ????

may i ask how can it be freedom of what happened in Abu-Gharib prison ???? a naked prisoner infront of dogs ???
a female soldier infront of a group line of NAKED men prisoners while she is pointing with her hands to thier male parts ???
is this what you call "FREEDOM" ?? rape prisoned women ??? what is this FOR GOD SAKE someone explain it to me
someone who can show me what a pretty peacefull fair respected pure FREEDOM is this ??

may i ask when destroying those people houses by tanks , oooh what a freedom ?



may i ask is this boy whom his head became like a rubber with nothing inside it anymore in this pic , thats your freedom , you know
what i respect your freedom now

a person who wake up to die! , wake up to see that his house is being shot or burned by fire , or a bomb is thrown at it ???
Freedom yea sure it is

u still call it freedom , oh wow great and so nice of you to lets us see feel and like such a freedom

may i ask when a person with nothing standing infront of a tank or group of soldiers who point thier guns in his face , thats freedom
when this person hold a stone , just a stone in his hand to protect him self OHHHHHH A TERRORIST OMG KILL HIM !!! is this it ??

let me say it again and think about it , a man with a stone in his hand standing infront of full armed soldiers and tanks targeting him and
pointing their weapons in his face,he is the one he is the terrorists , wow new information i never knew, thanks for telling me and showing me it

what a freedom?!!!

freedom full of pain , dies , blood and cries , freedom , you still call this freedom , what and which freedom ?? freedom to kill ??? rape ?? tortune ??
thank you for showing us the right way and the right path for freedom , we appreciate it , thank you alot.......OMG


when those people defend them selves you call them terrorists , when your troops kill rape and tortune you call them angels of freedom and peace ?????


i don't want to talk and just talk , i want you people i need you people to think about it , open your minds and hearts
have some mecry , think with some wisdom , is this what you talked about of freedom that we don't have ,

tell me what would you do , if you see you father get shot or killed infront of you , tell me what would you do if your mother sister or daughter got raped
by more than a person infront of your eyes and you got kicked and beated till you can't move a muscle to defend or protect them , what would you do
if you see your child taken away from you , shot in his or her head and heart while going to school , what would you do if you see your 2 days birth got
cutten into 2 halves by 2 soldiers infront of thier parents , what would you do if your 2,5 or 3 years so little young child got SHOT IN HIS HEART in his stomach
in his head what would you do , FOR GOD'S SAKE ANSWER ME WHAT WOULD YOU DO ???? , If it was you in there , if it was your father or son , mother or daugther , brother or sister
what would you do ,

i wish you to see how much pain you do in our people see thier faces , hear thier cries , watch thier blood in streets , watching them going away from you simply and so easy dies


this had never been accepted by Any Religon or Any Holy Book , i bet on it , there is no religon which may say so , NEVER EVER

last thing i would like to say , open your minds , don't just give it your backs , think about it , feel and see what really happenes
i won't ask you for mercy , because you arent the people who would give it to us , the only one is GOD

for you i want to say "Islam was never and will never be with terrorism it is One of God's Religons , Islam is not terrorism and for whom who think or say so ,
i beg you to really read and know Islam better read its history and understand it right"

Islam is one of God's religons and the last one of them , Islam word in arabic means salam which is peace , hello in Islam is ( Al Salam Alykom Warhmat Allah Wabrkatoh ) which means
Peace,God's Mercy and be upon you , that's just the most simple example about Islam , but you really need to know Islam as real.

about denmark topic well

you talk about the newspaper of denmark , why would we beccot a whole country ??? let me ask simple question

Saddam Hussien was one man one person , and if your countries wanted to get him in a second they could , for him , you killed and burned this country
for him you destroyed the whole country , full of fear pain cries blood , screams of children , no home no food

of course thats not the reason but i just want you to see and compare!!!

the proplem is that you don't understand why we didn't accept such thing

for us as Muslims, Our religon and Our Prophet means so much to us , means more than us , than our fathers mothers children brothers and sisters
mean more than our lives , Religon is a base for us , we can't accept someone who come to insult our religon and prophet sorry thats not freedom


some of you may say its okay , as i talked to someone who told me it is okay there they can insult Jesus , president country or whatever its okay with them
, but about us sorry thats not the same , if you don't respect your believes at least respect us and respect that we have believes and respect that our
believes means so much to us , respect that we can't accept that our believes Religon and Prophet get insulted , if you accept it for your own religon
we don't accept it for us , try to understand it , have some respect to others and thier believes , you got shocked from our reactions about it
well thats because you don't know how much does it mean to us , you must know that before you do such a thing , and would like to remind also
with the decree which the Human Rights Agency in the United Nations adopted on the 12th of
April, 2005. This decree insisted on the ban of distortions and vicious
attacks against religions and especially Islam; which had been strongly
attacked in the last few years

thats what i can say for now


it is the least thing we can do


thank you all for reading my post and hope you think about it with fair and open minded and heart full of feelings.

Best Regards  



8 Feb 2006 @ 02:46 by Redco @62.114.93.73 : i dont know if it is allowed or not
i dont know if it was allowed to post the pic shown but i just added its link and didnt use an HTML code to show it up  


8 Feb 2006 @ 02:53 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : vibrani
I admit, I got into this conversation in the middle somewhere, and I haven't read it from the very start. So who are you, what do you do and what do you know? I read your article from feb 7. Already at the beginning you go wrong, by saying "these guys". Who do you mean by "these guys"? Is it Fatima, that lives peacfully in the countryside, where she practice her religion, without bothering anyone, or do you mean Usama bin Ladin and his gang? I think you mean Usama. But by saying "these guys" you say that all muslims are like Usama, and that is simply not true, I know that and you should know that. I think that is why so many muslims were so offened. They are not all suicide bombers. I don't think that you are stupid, you prove that by having this conversation right now. But loosing your temper doesn't get you anywhere. Asking yourself what lies behind the hurt feelings, might on the other hand get you very far. Don't you think that we did good, Shaykhoon and I?  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:00 by vibrani : Photo
Right....here's a Palestinian Muslim baby dressed up as a terrorist/suicide bomber. What indoctrination is going on and they've had sixty decades of brainwashing just in this region to kill Jews and take over Israel.
 



8 Feb 2006 @ 03:03 by vibrani : Lisa
my focus has always been coming together with what is shared in common among all people, to realize that we all come from the same Source. But, in order for that to happen, some people have to give up the ridiculous notion that their religion is superior to all others, and that those not of their religion must die. As I've said ad nauseum, there are peaceful Muslims, but few that we know of and they do not take a stand against the violence. That's their fear at work, and maybe they also sympathize with the terrorists because they are Muslims, too. What must happen for peace to reign is for everybody to heal their own inner terrorist and anger issues, and to open their hearts and have compassion and respect for others. You can't change what you don't own. Consciousness shifting.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:19 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : Redco
Redco! I hear your cry! I am from Sweden, i.e. the western world, but I would never, repeat NEVER, justify, the wrongs that has been done to your country. Killing is never right, NEVER! Not even when it is for the cause of freedom. I agree, what you portray is not freedom. My freedom, that is so important to me, cannot be forced upon you in the blink of an eye. It doesn't work that way.
I cannot even begin to imagine what you and the Iraqii people have gone through these last couple of years. I live in a peaceful country, where I feel safe going to bed at night. How could I possibly understand? Still, I want you to know that I cry when I see these pictures. I cry when I read your text. It hurts, to the very deepest core of my heart, and I hope that you can believe me.
I cannot make right what others have done wrong, my apology will not help you. But I hope that you can find some comfort in knowing that there are people, even in the western world, that thinks this is sooo wrong. That are willing to hear your story, your truth, and try to spread the knowledge.
I feel that I don't even have the right to ask you to understand Denmark. But I hope that you will read our comments here feb7 and 8, by Shaykhoon, me Lisa, Roxana and ming, and that you will find some peace in it.
I am sorry Redco, I am so sorry!  



8 Feb 2006 @ 03:19 by Redco @62.114.93.73 : RE: Photo
mr vibrani , read my post well please =]  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:21 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.178.81 : vibrani
why will any one belive in a relegion unless he dont think its superior .....not the one who beleaves in it but the relegion it self ...think about it....by thinking that he follows what ever his relegion says and as strong as he is in faith as loved as u find him.....tell me who in the world can hate a pope for example.....relegion takes u closer to peace and how to live with otheres .........and how to accept them ....wether u or i like it or not we all are going to live on this earth so we have to make it work between us ... u have to accept me as i accept u...  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:26 by vibrani : Because
thinking it's superior is missing the point of religion (removing here the need to control). Religion is to help you get closer to God, help you remember who you are, not to be better than anybody else. It's not about ego. Look at any religious fundamentalists, Christian, Catholic, whatever, they're all the same because they're caught up in the ego, not the spirituality.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:33 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.178.81 : again vibrani
still vibrani u havent got what i wrote ....i meant the supremacy of relegion not ppl ....no one is better than the other only GOD decides that....but stil i mean the supreamacy of islam in our mindes .....................like when u love somth. that means that u think its better ...just get me right here plz... i never said i was better or els i just said that when i see my relegion is better thats simply y i beleave in it as u see urs better thats y u beleave in it .....it is as simple as that.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:34 by Redco @62.114.93.73 : Lisa
i know that some people know and feel it , at the end we are all humans have feelings , this is an example of what happen to Iraq , while Palastien this happen to is from more than 50 years , i wish that at least you see or know the truth of what happens there in reality , because as i said up we are all humans have feelings , i don't think a person with a mind heart and good feelings can accept this , in this moment now while i am writting this , think of how many children get killed at this second , how many women get raped at this instant , how many homes get destroyed , how do u expect a child or a kid to live , paniced with all the blood he see everywhere , with no home no food no nothing , while he hear gun shots everywhere , what is this ? how can he possible feel peace and live a normal life of a normal kid in his age ? that had stolen his life , his carrer his everything , he can't even defend him self he is full of fear inside him , what can he be anything ?? i hope people understand it , our kids children future got killed , thier dreams got shot by a gun , thier peacfull life withing thier loving family is simply runined :'(  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:39 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : vibrani
The thing is that you are right. You just need to clarify that you are talking about Usama, and the other crazy people, when you say some guys. Because these guys, Usama and his gang, really needs to reevaluate their lives. But, I know for sure, that there are many muslims in Sweden that do take a stand against the violence. To be honest, most muslims in the world, say that it is wrong to use violence. You have to know that? To be put in a negetive group, for instance suicide-bombers, that you feel that you don't belong to (which I am sure Shaykhoon does not belong to), is offending. If someone put you among the mentally challenged kids in school, you'd be offended, right?
I agree, there has to be some way to live side-by-side, and I think that we can get there. But we all, me too, need to broaden our horizon and try to see things through a different set of eyes once in a while. That's all I am saying.
I want to ask you something, and I want you to answer truthfully. If your family for years had been pointed fingers at, hearing people talk behind your back about how stupid you are, even killing your cousin that lived in another country, because they said he was too stupid. Wouldn't you be upset, if someone drew a picture of you as a baby in a grown body, saying that you mentally never left the 5 y.o. stage? I think you would. I know I would.
There are always going to be people that take advantage of situations like this, to gain more power. But we're not talking about those people now. We're talking about Fatima in the countryside, or Ahmed next door...  



8 Feb 2006 @ 03:42 by vibrani : Shaykhoon
you wrote earlier that God chose Muslims over everybody else. That was clear.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:44 by vibrani : Oh Lisa
I have relatives in other countries where they live with terrorism every day of their lives. I grew up with Holocaust survivors who were in the camps and tortured and lost their families to the Nazis. Does that make me go out and kill others - no. Does it make me destroy their homes or businesses? No. Does it make me demand they obey my religion or spirituality? No. I've experienced prejudice in several places around the world, myself. Know what I mean? There are CHOICES in how one lives their life. One can be peaceful or violent. It's a choice.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:50 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.178.81 : Vibrani Vibrani......
i didnt say over every body els i said when sons of israel failed GOD in thier mission he chose us to complete it ,as u were talking about Quraan ......dont just take two words of my whole speech to use it against me......+ dont bring this problem in here the problem between arabs and israeles we will solve it sooner or later ... but not here when we were talking about somth. els......  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:51 by vibrani : You said it
not I. I quoted you. To say the sons if Israel failed, God (according to Mohammad, not anybody else at that time) chose Muslims to complete it? What the hell is that bullshit? That's what I mean. It is the ILLUSION that you are superior to everyone else. That is not the way towards understanding squat, not God, not anybody else, it is not the way to peace. Remember Mohammad lied, and he was kicked out of ancient Israel? Of course he would have to think he was superior to have backing.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 03:58 by SHAYKHOON @82.201.178.81 : to sain ppl
look vibrani u are here to creat problems ur again mokeing my relegion by sayaing bullshit though i told u its quraan ...my holy book... and i dont want no problems so as u are not going i am going and thank GOD that i met sain ppl here like Lisa Ming and the others .......
so just peace be apone u all and Good night am going to sleep this time bye  



8 Feb 2006 @ 04:01 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : vibrani
Of course there are choices in life. I think that you and I are choosing the right path just talking to each other here.

A comment to vibrani and Shaykhoon: I think you are still talking apples and oranges.
Vibrani, Shaykhoon's God chooses muslims over others. You would choose your mother over him, now wouldn't you? Don't you see?!
He's trying to explain to you what he means, plz listen to him. Just because he believes in islam, and that his god chose muslims first, doesn't have to mean that he doesn't respect you?
I wasn't asking if you killed others, (of course you wouldn't). I was asking if you could maybe understand, mentally, why muslims are upset? Not Usama and his gang, they are not upset, they use this as a tool, but we are not talking about them now. Can you not see that there is a distinction between them?  



8 Feb 2006 @ 04:03 by vibrani : See?
That's exactly the problem. I didn't say your religion was bullshit, I say it's bullshit to think that it's superior to any other religion. And if you're being taught that, it's EGO, not spirituality, it's not the truth, either. It's a lie and instead of having a mind that can question it, you can't even deal with someone saying this to you. I wonder who you'd be without your koran. Ever wonder about that? No, Lisa, he's not saying that. He's saying that everyone who came before or after Mohammad wasn't good enough - ergo, making him superior. If you think your God idea is the best for you, fine. That's what I've said in my article. But, to say it's superior to everybody else - everyone who was created by God, is ludicrous.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 04:07 by Redco @62.114.93.73 : Vibrani
first watch your words because what Shaykhoon said is in our Holy Book Qu'raan it wasnt just what Muhammed said
second i see that you are always picking up and just making a fight no more , just because you are against arabs or whatever , you hate , for me i dont hate , but there is God who see what happens
third i would like to tell you what do you even know about Islam or Muhammed , i think you understand what i mean and i understand what i mean , you don't know or learned Islam as it is truely , so don't just say anything in something you don't know so that you show others it is something bad
fourth i would like to tell you and inform you that Muhammed is a person who never betrayed never lied , and i would like you to go and read the history not the one which a person who already hate Islam or Muhammed wrote it , just read a real History or Islam and Muhammed , and you will see it before even he be a prophet the people called him "The Person Who Never lies , the most trusted for others belonings" the people leave thier things with him so that he keep it for them till they come back , and that's cause all of them know that he is so trusted and good person , THAT'S EVEN BEFORE HE IS A PROPHET

last to say , just keep respect of what you say about our religon and prophet , as we respect yours , thanks  



8 Feb 2006 @ 04:09 by ming : Taboo
Roxana, yes, if one accidentally steps on a taboo, and one didn't mean to, good manners is to apologize. If I put my feet up on the table, because I'm tired and want to relax, and I realize that in your culture it is a great insult to point my feet towards you, I'd take them down and apologize. Because I didn't mean to be unfriendly or offensive, I just meant to relax.

That's when we have a direct interaction. It could work a similar way if a newspaper accidentally published something that was very insulting to some group. Maybe some text in a foreign language, and they didn't know what it meant before they published it.

In this case they did know that some Muslims probably would be offended. That's not the direct reason they published them. But, yes, it would be a good idea to apologize and say that they didn't mean any offense.

Now it gets more complicated when the discussion then is about whether you have a right to insist that I don't do that which offends you. That is very different. If putting my feet on the table offends you, I'll probably apologize, and maybe go outside and put my feet up somewhere else. If you insist that I can't put my feet up anywhere, that's where we have a problem.

If I were in a company that made a billboard that accidentally had an image that was very offensive to a certain religious group, we'd probably take it down, and apologize. Because that's not the message we intended to send.

But if maybe I'm an artist and I want to create a particular image, I might know or I might learn that a different group would take offense to it, and I might still want to maintain that exact image, because it fits my message. I might want to explain that I didn't mean it the way it is interpreted by some people. Or, I might actually intend to be provocative. In that case, maybe the only apology I can give is "I'm sorry you don't like my work, but you're free to not look at it".

If one is friendly and polite, one will usually try not to offend people, and one will apologize if one does. But not to be offended is not a universal human right. You can't really insist on never being offended. Most particularly, you can not insist on never feeling offended, because your feelings are entirely your own.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 04:13 by Redco @62.114.93.73 : Yes lisa - again vibrani
yes lisa , i agree with what you say , and for you vibrani again what shaykhoon said is from Qura'an so now once and for all to finish this because you are going so far now , insulting and mocking our religon and prophet we don't accept it so please have some respect with this , + that's wasn't the main topic we are talking about , + it isn't ego it is what our HOLY BOOK SAID , we say what our Holy book said , and that's not an ego
so peace up  



8 Feb 2006 @ 04:18 by vibrani : I don't think you know the difference
so I am through talking with people who can't question anything they've been taught to think and don't see that their ego, and their religion's ego, has a bad effect upon non-Muslims. So one can just as easily suggest that you owe us an apology. Where would you be without religion? Who would you be with your Koran? What if there was no book? What would God be to you? Can you even fantasize about it? How would you find God on your own? You can't do this - you are so conditioned.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 04:22 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : vibrani
Actually, you did say that his religion is BS. Because, that is a part of his religion. He didn't say, when he woke up this morning: Hehe, today I'm gonna go around telling everybody that I'm better than them. Actually, he's not even allowed to do that, because that is pride, and not allowed in islam.
The thing is that you got hooked on one little thing that you cannot let go of. Every religion has it's flaws. It's easier to see from the outside, from your and my point of view. He doesn't see it that way. If you ask any religios person (and we are not talking about Dalai Lama here), he's gonna say that his religion is the best. Of course he thinks that, that is why he believes in it.

But you are not even trying to understand why he's upset in the first place. I need to go to bed, and I think my words are lost on you. I think that you are trying to be respectful but fear is stopping you to go all the way. I hope that some day you will be able to see the world through his eyes, for a moment, so that maybe you can begin to understand, and respect him for what he is. A human being, with different beliefs than you.
You can't demand respect without being respectful yourself. Think about that! Take care.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 04:29 by Lisa @83.249.51.157 : ming
Ming, you are a smart guy! Wish I had your ability to clarify things.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 04:32 by Redco @62.114.93.73 : vibrani
sorry now i must end the coversation with you vibrani because you show no respect at all to our believs or religon , and i will not enter a converstation with someone who don't respect the other while talking , you keep insulting and we keep respecting so for now i am going to bed too , maybe one day you will understand because what you do here is just because Arabs and Israel anyway so no need for it + it is not the topic here , by the way read Gadrian news paper of England , about a Fish topic and see what does it says , later i will come and show it to all here , see ya all later ,wish u all have peacfull and good life

Best Regards,  



8 Feb 2006 @ 04:33 by vibrani : Whatever Lisa
I see that you miss my point, too, and judge me without understanding me AT ALL! It's very easy to get in a huff and use the excuse that someone insults your religion when they point things out, so it gives you license to abuse them and demand apologies for imagined things. I think that's not very brave or fair. It's a lost cause.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 04:36 by vibrani : Oh boo hoo
cry me a river....and it's back to square one. As if your feelings and religion are the only ones that matter. I don't want any apologies, or need them. Maybe some other people do, though. My sole intention was to open minds, work towards peace, dispel myths. You have bought into a huge illusion. That's fine. It is something your soul needs. Keep it to yourself, please. I don't need it. We already share in one illusion here on earth, being in a body. No matter what you say, the Muslim reaction to the cartoons proves the cartoons to be an accurate display. (It's also not in my nature or habit to lie, and I would not be me if not tell you exactly what I think and feel, I would not be serving the highest to lie to you.) One day, some day, you'll know more about what God is and will you be surprised.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 07:55 by Aziz A @64.213.98.17 : to another danish guy
All Muslims criticise, fight, hate and demonstrate against the killers who kill people in unjustified manner. Our holy book(Kuran) prevented strongly killing innocent people regardless their religion or nationality, so according to Kuran any person kills another without urgent reason would be treated as if he kills all people. So, this is what prophet Mohammad said. So, the majority of Muslems and their governments fighting terrorism in their countries, that is why terrorists mostly work secretly, so you and your governments have to fight any one insult another. I think governments represent their citizins so it is no problem if apologise instead of them or to correct their bad behavior.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 09:06 by Another Danish Guy @80.164.65.4 : To Aziz
U must understand why something like 80% Danes didn´t think the goverment should not apologise, if they apologise it is as saying ok we offended muslims, but as we showed it was a newpaper that has haven´t and can not speak for our country, they apoligised after a protest by people here both muslims and non muslims that found it unacceptable, and the muslims accpeted.
Danes get offended too when the world show us as people trying to make a conflict, witch we have nothing to do with, the newspaper wasen´t trying to make a conflict either, but they did and apologised.

And i see some people think that the newspaper spread the drawings to other countrys this is a misinfomation the drawings was spread by danish muslims, and as i read a reporter in Jordan found out some of the drawings was never even shown in Denmark.

I think after the newspaper apologised (and muslims accpeted) then that is the end of it for people now let the courts do there job. as long as this continue the hate will only grow.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 09:08 by Another Danish Guy @80.164.65.4 : to all
but it´s good to see we finally start understanding eachother if the world react and are willing to lisen as people here there are still hope  


8 Feb 2006 @ 10:14 by Obaid essa @195.229.242.52 : As-salaam Alaikum
To you who have arrived here at this particular address to hear this subject, Christianity versus Islam, I thank you and I feel more than honored at your presence here this afternoon. And I thank each and every one of you whether you are a common laborer, whether you are blind, deaf and dumb or whether you are a professor of a college or a university. I thank you for your presence here this afternoon.

We the Muslims greet you As-Salaam-Alaikum which means peace be unto you. This is an Arab word for peace. In going after this subject this afternoon, we must remember whether or not there is time for such understanding - or we will just say - a show down between the two religions. If it's not time we [will] not be successful in trying to make you understand the truth and if this is the time, we will know by your understanding and we will know by your actions or reactions to the truth.

We may sum up a few events of the past, we take back 6,000 years ago according to the word of Almighty God Allah when this world was being fashioned, the white man's world, we have on the pages of history, much confusion, much conflict between Islam or the Muslims, are the builders or manufacturers of this world. We have arrived now at the day we call 6,000 years from the creation of the white man's world. And according to the prophecy, according to your own understanding of the history, the truth must be told. I hope that I don't irritate you; truth is a little thing that hurts. I didn't come out here to dominate your religion nor anyone's religion. I'm here to tell the truth.

We have lived under the whiteman's rule for, now, 6,000 years. Six days they work and on the seventh day rest. We are in the day of rest of their world, and you are surprised. Some of you are confused over what is taking place. But a knowledge of the history of this world and the prophecy explaining the ending of this world, you should not be surprised. Some of us have been so surprised that we go astray and exaggerate, heading in and out of the truth.

The so-called American Negro, who is not a Negro, but a slave name given to them by their slave-master, who had no love nor friendship for them, and after making them blind, deaf and dumb to the knowledge of themselves, they called them Negroes, which means something that is dead, lifeless, neutral. In words to say, that here stands a man that [has] no knowledge of himself and he's neutral, he's not one of us, nor is he one of their own kind, and that he's like something that is dead that you go take it and place it over here, sit it down or stand it up, it will remain in the position you put it in until you change that position.

These people have been mistreated by their slave-masters and the slave masters' children worse than any human being or beings that ever was on our planet earth according to history. We have suffered all kinds of cruelty, beatings, and murder, all the days since we have been in the Western Hemisphere; it's going on right at this hour. And today, truth must be told and the truth will free that man of his ignorant knowledge of his master and of himself.

I want you to remember again, that this subject, the two religions, it's not that I want you to go down on your knees and start praying this afternoon looking in the skies, no. I'm not actually teaching too much religion, because how can you learn religion unless you first learn yourself. Our people are so sold to religion; why, because they are the people of the divine family.

The so-called American Negroes [are] members of the Tribe of Shabazz. Shabazz was a scientist that went into what was then known as the jungle of East Asia, according to the Teachings of Almighty God, Allah, to me. Fifty thousand (50,000) years ago, he started with his family there in what you call today the jungles of Africa. There he taken his family and he started a civilization after his own ideas. He disagreed with the other 23 scientist and went for himself to prove what he thought was necessary for you and I to know, the same as Yakub. This particular knowledge awakens you; you can't read [it] in no 6,000 year old history.

The true knowledge or science of world that you and I are living in today was kept back, hidden and it was a secret among the scientist, until the world that you and I have known lived [out ] its time and work that it was created to do. Today we are closing in or rather it's disappearing and a new world is budding or giving birth in place of an old one.

We the so- called American Negroes, [are] members, I repeat, from a Tribe of ours by the name of Shabazz. This man 50,000 years ago, remember that fifty thousand (50,000) years ago, not 6,000 years ago, fifty thousand(50,000). We, the Nation of Islam, the Nation of righteous, the Nation of peace, we have always experimented among ourselves or on this and that, and that;s Why we know we are the greatest and the wisest people in the universe because our study of the life on other planets;we don't fine them experimenting among themselves or on their planet as we are; therefore, we know that we are the wisest people in the sun.

The so- called Negro, the black man, the lost and found member of a great original nation, the first on our planet: I want you to remember that we are the first on our planet. The planet did'nt come after or rather before us we was before the planet. I want you to pay good attention, take notes on what I say, attack me on the truth of it if you want to, I don't have time to contend with you here this afternoon in this short time that I am given, but you can write me, you can attack me through mail if you want to, I will answer you

Now, We, I say , was before the earth. We could not claim ourselves as being the creators of the universe: The Sun Moon and Star and the Earth, if we had been born or created after the earth. And if we came after the earth, then the earth is older then the God Who claimed to be master of the Earth.

There is so much talk going on today, since Almighty God Allah has visited us and revealed to us the truth that is necessary, very much necessary, that I go into the past to bring you up with the truth to the present time. Because that is the trouble with my people. They think they are inferior. They think they are something that God don't want Himself. They think that their particular knowledge and way of life is like that of all of our people, regardless to what part of earth the live in. And some think that they are superior in wisdom, in education than any of their kind in the earth.

This I say is a mistake that you are making yourself. It is due to the lack of knowledge of the black man. I want you to know these things before we go into argument over, ''he is teaching hate; he's teaching black supremacy."

I want to give to you the Blackmans' history. You can say that he's inferior. You can say that he's not superior. You can say that he's not the supreme people if you want to. That's up to you. But I will give you his history and I defy you to disprove it.

"We don't want religion." Some of us are so proud. There are a lot of Atheist being born among the people.

Today, living in a rich world and a fast world filled with sport and play, the so-called America Negro has been made drunken off such foolishness and today he's proud to walk around some of them and say "I don't believe in no God."

I want any Atheist to contend with me that he actually don't believe in a God. And I can prove to you that you are mistaken. You do believe in a God. One is Supreme over you. We all have that.

I say my beloved listeners, that if you feel that I am out of line, out of the order and law of the truth, you are welcome to attack me. But I would say, before I go further, I thank you, leaders of different organizations, as I have learned that some of you are here.

I thank you for your presence. And I hope that you and I can agree on facts and live in unity together. And some of you religious people that do not actually confess Islam, but you are religious people of your choice, I am happy that you are here.

Christianity, Islam, and the Hindu religion, or Buddhism, is three of the greatest religions of the people today; Christianity is the Youngest of them all..Buddhism is an old religion . And Islam is as old as God Himself.

Islam is not an organized religion. It's a religion to the very nature of God and His people. It is the natural religion of God and His people, so says the Holy Qur'an 30:30. And how do we say that it's not if we are from the first Father or the Creator of the Universe. Whatever His nature was, then we are that. If His nature was of evil, we are evil people. If His nature was good, then we are good people.

There is much confusion today over this revelation that has been revealed in America over the history of the two people, mainly black and white, that even I have lost a lot of friends amongst the Orthodox Muslims who are not able to agree that the nature in which we were created in is different from the nature of the white race, they are two different people Altogether. I am so sorry for your lack of knowledge of self and others, but if we can listen and try to huddle over the truth that is said or being taught, you should bear me witness that I am after good for you, not evil, but for good. I am not after you to tie you in with your slave-master to make you one of the members of his family, as he has already destroyed us. About 85% or 95% percent of us is destroyed by the slave master and his children according to one professor here today. Or, we don't have to do nothing but just glance at each other and we see and recognize the mark. You that want to further the destruction of your people, I want you to listen closely and after this, I hope you will bear witness to the truth that you would be a fool to destroy yourself.

We, the original people of the Earth, the universe, have no birth record; there is no such thing as 6,000 years ago God created the heavens and the earth and we are all from Adam. Get away from that story. We the Black Nation of the Planet Earth, are not from Adam; it is the white race that is from Adam, but not you and I. He was the beginning or the father of this race of people 6,000 years ago. He was a god himself, the father of this race of people, his name was yakub, they called him Jacob. He being a very smart and wise man with a large head, as you see that most of the white people have large heads, They used to call him the big head scientist in his day and time, because of the great massive head he had. I have to go after the history of you and I, to bring you up to our religion. We don't go and try to condemn without showing proof.

This particular nation of people, the black man, that my people have been made to despise, some of the college students, teachers and professors are even saying today that they don't even like black supremacy any more than they like white supremacy. They say now they don't like either one. I would like to question that professor on what kind of rule are you expecting to live under, or what color of people?

Since you have no knowledge of yourself and your history, and God Almighty has brought it to us, the best knower, that I am teaching to you today, I wish that you know this, that we were the supreme rulers for millions and billions of years. The white people that teach my people that I am teaching black supremacy only throws that in to make you dislike the truth that I'm teaching from God, and make you think that you are headed for trouble, as though they are not into white supremacy. They have been ruling us for 6,000 years and they think it,s something of a crime that we say, that the Blackman is Supreme ruler.

This, I want you to remember: that a long, long, long, long old time before the white man was ever thought of, we were ruling, not only this earth, but everything in the universe. We our Fathers, are the makers and fashioners of the universe. Our Fathers made it. One of our Fathers, 66 trillion years ago,- don't think I'm making a mistake-66 trillions years ago,-pricking and blast this earth or planet that we're on, divided it, and use one part of it for a light to serve as a light on this part, to reflect the light of the sun at night: we call it moon. That took place 66 trillion years ago, according to the teachings of Almighty God to me. Just a moment, that is not beginning of the Blackman,nor his creation to rule.

Six trillion years before that,we made the moon, to serve as a light to our earth, to take away Mars who had been serving as a moon to our earth the making of the present moon, it was Mars. This Mars was so far away. Almighty God Allah said they prepared this present lifeless piece of planet to reflect sunlight on our earth. It has a lot of affect on our earth, and on the vegetation, and on the lives of you and I. Some of the white people would like to go there and live, according to what I read.

I don't know why they want to go there, well I know why, but I don't know how they are going to live there. There is no life on that part of our planet. There's no water on it, unless it's somewhere in the heart of it, in a rock. And for 66 trillion years, she has been deprived of life, and water, vegetation, because after blasting away of that part of our earth, she lost all the water that was on that part, back on this part, after she was blast 12,000 miles away from the original pocket that we was in at that time.

This part dropped 36,000 miles, and found another pocket, and kept rotating, but the water we didn't lose, as we never lost water. Water you cannot destroy. That's a good sign of the God. You cannot destroy the God, the Black nation, with all of your planning, with all your science in murder or destruction of people, you cannot destroy all of us. You can destroy some of us, but not all of us.There're these scientists of the world, having ideas of trying to blow up these poison weapons, that if they are going, they want to carry us with them. It is their particular idea that they will do away with the earth with atomic weapon and hydrogen bombs, and I say you are mistaken, you won't be able to do that,because we have in our midst today a God that has the power over your thinking. He has power over what you do; you have it in your Bible,he created this mist that's suppose to go and brings out a weapon, listen, this is a warning to the enemy, and to the believer, that if I have power over his mist, I have power over his weapons; I have power over his thinking, and that he will learn through attacking me through my people, that he won't be able to win in a war with me. With the civilized people of the earth today, doing everything to destroy themselves, it is time that my people here know the truth and know how strong their nation is, and know how strong the God of the nation. The reason that you're trembling, fear in the face of white people, it is because of the lack of knowledge of yourself and the God of you and I, and the god that created the white man, and that people,and the limited knowledge that they have which is six (6). You have no right to fear white people today; to accept the truth, we are the winners; we are the victorious people; we will rule.We have been hear a long, long, time. It was a black man by the name of Yakub, 6,600 years ago who grafted the white race out of us. They are from us. They have tried to cover their birth and their father and their mother by saying that they came from sea life; then, if they came from sea life, then sea life is their god, or their father, or that they're from animals. They would rather say that most anything is their god. They don't like you and I, because of the very nature of which they were created. We can't look for brotherly love from a man that was made to be the enemy of you. You can't look for it, don't expect it. I am not angry with the white race because they hate me, they was made to hate me. We can't get away from that in which by nature we are.

So we have hear six days in the Bible that God created the heaven and the earth, we have six periods in the Holy Qur'an, and other periods that divided into six, that God created the heavens and the earth,but what you have in the Bible there, dated back to 6, 000 years ago, means this; That it had taken their father, Yakub, 600 years to make a race out of another race. He was grafting out of darkness, or out of the Blackman for 600 years, to bring out a complete white man altogether different by nature than that in which he was taken from. These are facts that I defy your colleges or university professors to dispute. There are so many of you whispering, going around saying," This old story, we all are from God; we are all brothers; we all are alike." I say to you my people, stop telling other than the truth, you are not like white people. You can't deceive God, nor can you deceive anyone whom God have opened His heart for understanding. You want them to think that you are in so much love with them because you have been made like that by them. You fear them because their fathers put fear in your fathers when they was babies. And now that you have nursed from your grandparents breast which has come down into the breast of the present mothers of the black people here, and every child that they birth has a trembling fear of white people. I say to you my friends, this will get you hell. What I would like that you do: come to Allah and accept Islam and that fear will be removed. You will not have any fear.You fear because you have no knowledge of that which you fear. Again I say to you, that these religions that are burning out or being born, so numerous for the last 6,000 years,it is due to the fact that Almighty God Allah did not try to teach or further His religion after the birth of the white race, because He had agreed to let the white race rule according to his own wishes. As you would find it in the Qur'an and you will find it in the Bible where that Adam was given authority over everything to rule it, that was the white race, bringing into subjection everything of life,even the fish of the sea, birds, animals, everything,all men other than their own race, they have accomplished that. And you have to give them credit, that they have done everything that the book said they would do. They have forced the black man to bow and submit to their rule for the past 6,000 years,and they have trained and made wild animals birds, sea life to submit to their rule, everything has submitted to them,but the God of heaven and a circle of scientists that they could never get into that circle, which is left to start a new world for the Blackman. I hope that you won't think hard of me for digging into these roots,but it takes these roots, pulled up out of the dark to show you yourself. You have heard probably that the truth shall be told, though I have read too the consequences of telling the truth in the last days; we're suffering that consequence,because 20 million blind,deaf and dumb,people here, spiritually blind, deaf,and dumb, is worth the life of myself and even a portion of my followers to bring in to the life of truth, but nevertheless the Jesus did not tell you what that truth was, that would make you free, you don't have it there, no. He could not tell you at that time, he was 2,000 years ahead of the time when the truth should be told. We're most hated because we have the knowledge of such truth. No man that is in power wants to be taken out of power and authority, and be replaced by another, no. But it is time. I think that God has blessed the whiteman greatly. I think the white race should be willing if God would tell them to stick up their hands and let's go now.I think they should be willing to go. In America where that they came, killed off the original settlers here, the Red Indians, who were exiled out of what is know as East India today, 16,000 years ago,that was 10,000 years before there was a Caucasian on our planet. They came through the Baring Straits over that ice and started making a home here in the Western Hemisphere. At that time the Lord God,Almighty Allah said, they referred to this part of the planet as a prisoner island, because this people, the indians, Red indians. They were disobedient to Allah,and to the law of God, and refused to accept Islam. Islam has always been the teaching or the religion of God, but not always under that name, but the meaning or principle of belief and practice has always been the same: We believe in one God. We submit to that God, entire submission to His will is Islam, that's what we call Islam. And that has always been among us.We never disobey Allah until Yakub made a disobedient race of people who would become and did become the very enemy of Almighty God Allah, and his people. Then they began to take us away, stripped us away into their evil disobedience and today now they have all but 90 per cent of the people of the blind population, I should say, disobeying God Almighty following after their own evil ways and other gods they have set up besides Him claiming or giving that god which did not create anything,and who has not the power to guide or the power of mercy and love for those who would follow- giving them the glory and honor that they should give to Allah.I say my friend, this may be stinging, but it's facts. As I don't get out to teach very often, but on such occasion as this wherein that I can speak to a thousand,ten thousand of you, I would like to speak with you and give to you the truth. The Original Man, the first and the last: Go to Asia. Go to Africa. You don't find nobody running around there unless he's a Christian missionary, preaching the end of the world. They don't have that particular nature to say that such and such a time, that we black people here in Africa and in Asia will be destroyed by God No, it is Europe, it is America, it is the Christian people who preaches the end of the world. It is those people whom the end has been set.Their time was limit to live on out planet earth when they were created. It is the white race,that have a certain time to live,and that is 6, 000 years. And the black people have no beginning on our planet, if it is,why? We don't have a birth record of it. And they have no ending. As I say, you can't destroy us all, because we always have one among us who is waiting for you to just [attempt] evil acts to destroy us, and that will be the end of you.The Judgment of the world is so close, I'm forced to tell you what I am telling you. The Black man of America is so dumb and so helpless, that he is a prey in the hands of the white people. He's easy to forget his own hurt. The white man can kill all of his family today, and tomorrow you will shake hands with him.That's right. He has been made an absolute living coward. He's so humble and submissive, and so dumb and ignorant, that the whiteman can use him for anything he wants. They want the whiteman's friendship, and they have been working on it for four hundred years, and they're just as far off from it today, as they were four hundred years ago. Look in Mississippi today Look in Philadelphia, look in Chicago, look in New York City. Look in all the cities of America,and you will find your brother's head bleeding with knots on it, from police brutality, and from any whiteman who wants to beat him up. Due to the fact that he's humble, he's scared to death, he won't put up a fight to protect himself, and the whiteman is like the wolf. He don't care whether the lamb submit or not.And he don't care whether the man likes it or the lamb likes it, he eats him just the same. Now today under this hypocritical integration, the white man desires to deceive the negro further; pretending that he is is friend, pretending that he wants him now to enter our society, be a member of us, why, because he hears Allah's name being mentioned a lot. They don't want you to come to Allah, they don't want you to believe in Islam. They are against Islam, they are against Allah, they never did teach your parents and my parents nothing of Allah nor of Islam. They didn't teach our parents their own religion.Three hundred years,our parents was under the lash and burden of slavery, that they was deprived of any knowledge of God, or scripture of any kind. They deprived our fathers of reading and writing, which is the art or science that is used to conveying our ideas to others, you were deprived of. Less than a hundred years ago he permitted you to go to his church or rather in a church to yourself. And you have been segregated from them ever since. Now today, he says ," let us take him in our society " for what? What do you want to do with him? He don;t look like you.We're watching you; we know what you want to do with him. You want to take him to hell with you that's all. I say that's to bring you out the real raw truth. the white race was not created for the hereafter. They were created for hell , and hell for them. You have it in both Bible and Qur'an, that's why that there world is coming to an end, and that's why God tells you that He will make manifest the man of sin in that day and time, at the end of their world. And you would be told then the truth of this people. That they were not created to be the people of God, of truth and justice, they are created to be the enemies of God, of truth and justice, and of those who believe in a God of truth and justice.We the Muslims hear in your midst, we believe in Freedom, Justice and Equality, the truth of God,and the truth of his prophets, and the Scriptures in which God gave to those prophets. We believe in it. We believe in Jesus, we believe in Abraham, we believe in Mose,and the Scriptures in which they brought to us,the people. We don't believe Jesus is anymore a son of God than you or I, who are the people of God to the Righteous. This is a scandal that they have made you to believe, which is absolutely other than the truth, that some spooky something went around Mary,talked to her and after spook left her, she was pregnant.This is the base of the Christian belief, that there was a miraculous life and death of Jesus.I say my beloved black people here this afternoon, cut that out, that is all false, Joseph was the father of Jesus, No spook makes flesh and blood. Jesus was flesh and blood and his mother bared him in pain, and he had to go nine months before he was born like any other normal child, and he died the death of any other man.That is something that you don't understand. If he has rose from the dead, and became a man again, then why haven't you and I seen him? For 2,000 years we haven't met up with that man. You say he's gone to heaven,what kind of heaven , he did'nt change from nothing but the earth, and if he's going back to heaven,he went back to the earth. He did'nt come from no other planet, there is no other planet that you and I can live on,or be born on, if we were born on the earth. We can't go to no other planet and live. that's foolishness to talk such; we did not come from there, and were not returning to such,and there is no such thing as a Jesus and a God standing on any other planet looking at you and I. The God is here on this earth. This is the God where you and I live. This is the heaven this is the hell. Hell and heaven is not a certain place or a particular place, it is the condition of our lives. You won't be able to come through no tombstone, or even through the dust, because they don't come back after they go there. We have had life, they last for trillions of years and never have anybody returned from that earth that went back to it. When you go back to the earth, you don't rise anymore.You say, oh yes I believe it. Ok, let's pick a simple example: There was a ship [that] sunk at sea, a submarine blasted it, and all the solders went down in the sea. Alright. Didn't nobody go down there and pick them up and bury them did they? They had died right? Ok, The fish ate them or some other sea animals. And maybe you caught one of the fish that ate some of these soldiers.And you ate the fish, and now when the trumpet is blown where is that soldier coming from? Your limited knowledge of science makes you destroy yourself or cause much harm to come to you. You say alright, you're on land alright then, suppose a wild animal ate one of you out here on land ok, he finally dies and his carcass go and then enrich the earth, and fertilizes green grass, a cow or a sheep or something come and eat that grass. Then you kill that animal and eat him, where will they find that man? Don't you wish for no resurrection of no dead because you have ate many dead yourself. The resurrection of the dead only means bringing up people, mentally dead or blind,deaf,and dumb as they call it. Blind means that you are too spiritually blind that you cannot understand or see the truth and distinguish it from falsehood. And deaf means your ears are so rebellious against truth, that you will not allow them to listen to the truth, And your tongue,or you're dumb because that you don't allow your tongue to practice the truth,and nor receive the teaching of the truth, therefore your tongue is like one that cannot even speak, because it knows nothing about the truth nor can it talk on the truth. So you're called blind,deaf,and dumb. And there is no such thing as the physical body coming up out of the earth, nor the physical form will take on a new voice,You'll have a new body, from this old one,but it is like this according to the teachings of the holy Qur'an , that it will be reversed instead of going into decay, it will go into use again, like an old tree that starts budding out new blossoms, or new limbs,this is what will happen to you that will see the hereafter.You will start growing into a new growth,which will take you back to your youth again, into teenagers,and you will remain like that if you live hear a thousand years, because there won't be any decaying on the other side, what I mean the other side after the destruction or disappearance of the whitemans' world, there will be no decay in the blackman. Everything under this number six decays,because it was built upon that particular principle or nature, that it should decay and die away. I say again to you now the religion, all kinds of religions have been practiced. You say I don't want your Islam, I don't want your Allah. What do you know Allah, and what do you know about Islam? Do you mean to tell me that you are so great, you are so powerful. you are so wise.that you will not bow to any other superior being other than yourself ? When that you are living under the authority of a Supreme being over you. We only say to you to submit to the will of the Divine Supreme Being, One Who is wiser than we all, One more powerful than we all, One Who is hearing and knowing, Who is capable of reversing the whole of the creation,and reproducing it, and One Who is able to pass it out of existence and bring in a new one altogether.You would not bow and submit to a man that has power to take you out of the earth, bring you into a living being, and have the power to remove you from the planet. Did I to say you that you are rebellious? Yes you are. You don't take time to learn; you are to proud; you are resisting God, because you have never been taught Allah and Islam by the whiteman. It is against the nature of white people to believe in Allah. They can if they want to. We have a few white people that is in Islam, brought up in it, just like you have been brought up in the white man's Christianity. Christianity is a religion that the whiteman preaches. It is a religion that was organized.It is not the religion that came with God and the Prophets; it's a religion that they organized.And they organized it to their own satisfaction.And they certainly have been successful under it, but you and I have not. Why? Why have not you been successful in Christianity? It is because you did not know the tricks that was in it, You took the wrong end of it.You're not successful in trying to play the whiteman's game of civilization; you're both two different people altogether. You cannot be successful in trying to integrate in white people, because they will destroy you. You won't destroy them, but they will destroy.Some of you are so dumb, that you would like to be destroyed. But I say to you that the Black man is not what you think he is; you're looking at the one that has been corrupt,one that has been marred, destroyed. But I say, the real one, that you are from,you don't know him so well. We are this original people, and we are from the originator of the heavens and the earth, when and where it took place. We are from that particular Father. And I say again and again, we are not equal, we are not born of the same father and mother , we are not the same people by nature the same.The white race a weaker physical people than the original black people. They came from the original black people,and through the grafting; they were made weaker. And by being made physically weaker, they were taught wickedness by their father, they weren't taught to do good; he taught them to be evil; he taught them how to murder and lie when they were even in the mother womb; he practiced on the nurse: told the nurse how to tell the mother lies And the lie went down into her baby. And the baby when it comes here,is born with that lie, and knows by nature how to lie and deceive others. That's why you have it in 8: 32 of John, that the Jesus says '' I know your father, he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning '' . This means Yakub, Yakub's idea was to make a people to be the ruler of our people, or the people that they are from. And he taught his people to murder the black people, destroy them, and build up your own people on the earth; this, the white man has followed to both letter and the spirit.At that time when they were grafted out of our people, the population of our planet earth according to the teaching of Almighty God to me was fifty-hundred-million people on our Planet .Five billion people was the population when Yakub begin grafting the white race. And the white has caused that fifty or five billion people to come to this number today: forty four hundred million. They have destroyed six hundred million of our people since they have been on the planet, and they are still destroying them, They were made like that, you can't blame them,you have to blame yourself. Their father was the one that made these people murderers. When they can't murder a bird or can't murder some harmless animal or murder some harmless so called negro, they murder themselves. They are born like that, they are great deceivers. Yakub had to deceivers. Yakub had to deceive the original fathers to get them to bow and to become clean for his grafting, so he lied to them. He told them that if they follow him,that he would make them make the other people work for them and give them gold and what not, set them in heaven and everything, and therefore they followed Yakub.and Yakub was after enough of them to graft this race of people from them.. He had taken 59,999 people out with him and he made the60,000 on the Island in the Aegean sea, where he started grafting 6,600 years ago, and after 600 years- though he did'nt live 600 years,he only lived 150 years,so Allah taught me.And after that time he had this before coming back to the main land of Asia, back into our civilization, pale white,blue eyes,and ready to start trouble,and they did. For six months, they had made so much hell among us, that the King at that time had to call the army in to take them out, so that they could have peace.They made our people fight each other,they would go to the home of one,and tell him a story on another, and divide them as he's doing today. They have always lived on divided and rule.That tactic that have always used and still uses it. And it is just a matter of time that you wake up and understand the teaching. It is not that we, I said, can live among them ,we that know them we can live side by side with them; we're not going to bother them ,we know them, and we just ask them to leave us alone, that' all. You that have no knowledge of tham, naturally you are going to have friction with them every so often, because you don't know them, nor do you know yourself. Now after this we had this to happen: They were herded together and they were then put on their feet to go and try to get into the continent that you call Europe today.They put them on the Arabian desert and walked across that hot sand; many of them died, but a few lived. They went into what you call Europe today, they were stripped of all the literature of their fathers, our fathers brought them back, put them away in vaults and they came and give to them skins of animals, so that they could have something to wear to cover their nakedness. And they taken our clothes away from them, that they should not wear the custom of the original people. And that they went into the hills,cave sides of Europe with nothing to go on as guides, and without guides, and after a few years, they became savages they dug their caves, and they found caves,they lived in caves, and they went about the country side, or the hill sides killing wild animals, eating them, and eating them raw, and what not, taking their hide to cover themselves from the cold winter of Europe. This went on for 2,000 years until the birth of Moses. And this people, they got so far savage, they did'nt teach their children when they were born to walk on their legs; the child comes here, he started growing, he kept growing and kept growing and then at the birth of Moses,in the hills and cave sides of Europe, they were walking on their all fours, 4,000 years ago. And Moses civilized them , brought them up , stood them up again, some of them refused to follow Moses. And The Holy Qur-an said that Allah cursed them and caused them to become apes and swine, monkeys and what not. And so this is the curses that befell Yakub's civilization, for being disobedient among the Holy people of the Islam world.And they were cast out and was punished. They was exiled.And after that, they came back among us, and since that time, they have gotten such strong power among us,that they are now ready for a Holy war. They are ready to contend with us that they can rule self. But this was understood before they ever were created; it's all written in a book, what they will do, and they're not doing anything other than what was written of them. Therefore, being wise, to what they will do, and how they will do it, the black scientist today are lying quiet as though he's dead,waiting for an opportune moment to rise up and do his work.You won't kill them all, you will start but you will stop.You're going to the Moon? for what? You can't hide there.You want to go to venus? You can't stay there.You can't go to Mars, it's too cold for you.Venus is too hot for you, and the Moon is without any life whatsoever, and you can't stay there unless you carry enough of this atmosphere to live on. You've got to distill all your food from the earth to eat. And even if you was on Mars or Venus, you could'nt eat the food there Every Planet carries its own weight of life or its own kind of life,and you and I cannot just adapt our lives with that life on that planet. You can't drink the water on that planet it will kill you. You have to confine your own life to this earth where you came from. And I don't care where you go, you will finally return to this earth, if you have to drift back to space, you'll come back to the earth.You must know today the time is at hand, and I must tell you, it is my people that I'm after. They are the ones that are dead. They are the dead of the Bible. The whiteman is all wise to all that I'm saying. I'm not trying to teach him,he knows. It is you that don't know. I'm not trying to force you to follow me. I'm only trying to tell you the truth, you follow whom you please, Allah can do without you. We have oceans of people on this planet, and if you never join on to them, they will never miss you Christianity versus Islam: Christianity as I said, and you can bear me witness,is an organized religion, it is not a religion that Jesus is the author or founder of. Jesus knew nothing of Christianity in the day he was living,Christianity came after his death. Jesus was of the same religion that I am teaching to you today, Islam. Jesus was a Muslim. He said that he came not to destroy the law of the prophets. Then they makes sense over here where he says in the older times; he said, "an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth" meaning, Moses' law taught them that. And for you now if he smacks you on one side of the cheek, turn the other, knock out your tooth go ahead and give him another tooth to knock out out. This was the slave-master's way of making some harmless slaves.He didn't want the slave to strike back, so he tell them that the book say this: "You shall not throw railing for railing" They even tell me now, "Why do you teach them to hate us?" They never say why I'm teaching to hate that they call hate. Then you are wrong. You shouldn't do that if the whiteman have did that, then you should not do that yourself, you should bring about love among us . But I say that all the while I am teaching you, they are giving hell right on.They can't do any better; their nature don't teach them to love you and treat you like they treat themselves. And you being an original Black person, you yourselves cannot by nature, be one of them by no means, unless that you are made into them. Again, I say you are a fool to want to go and be just like your slave master; you are a fool to want to destroy your identity, you are a fool to want to be equal members in their society, when you are not. You cannot demand the slave master to give you equal recognition,when you are not; he's the master and you are the slave, you can't do that. You cannot demand him to give you fair employment; that's his job, he made it, and he do what he please with it. He will take his own people if he wants them in front of you, and any other nation will do the same. What you and I should do is go make a job for our people, and for ourselves.But we are a bit lazy. We don't want to work and produce work for our people. We want to beg other people. I say you are well educators produce employment for your own people if you would unite, and get to yourself to do it. You cannot with 20 million people here, dependent on the white race, white America, to produce or created jobs for you and build your needs, build houses, farms for you, everything that you want, from a pair of socks, to a hat on your head he has to produce. I say this thing is not going to last forever, even it they wanted to do so, it won't last forever. They are now a great people in population, and you are like your fathers was in servitude slavery, begging your masters for bread, begging master for clothes, begging master for a shovel. If you are turned down,you should not think hard of them, think hard of yourself. For one hundred years, they have said that we are free, though I know,you know, that you are not freed in deed, but I say, they said that we are free, lets try and exercise some of it. Go to the master and say "Let me go from you, help me to go from you, and help me stay from you." A lazy man don't ever want to go out from a house that he can get away with or get along without work. Most of our leaders don't want to go to work or put their people to work to build a man's world. He says, "I'm just as much a citizen as you. I am entitled to this." That's a coward talking to the father. We know that we are not equal in sharing America; why should we boast that we are. We know we are not citizens. We could not be citizens unless we were white people.We are alien. We were brought here, not to be made citizens of this country, equal citizens with the white man, nor to receive equal justice. We were brought here for burden bearers. And you are fighting them today to try and force them against their own will and against the very law of nature, to accept you as their equal, and share with you equally in all they have. This is against the very law of nature, they can't do that. And you would like to destroy yourself into yourself, by marrying into them, and they are not going to let you do that. There is no intelligent decent white people who wants a negro as his son-in- law, or daughter - in - law. And there is no decent and intelligent black, man who wants a white son- in - law nor a white daughter- in - law. Being ignorant of yourself, and like many other African people that the white man has destroyed by going into them, destroying their identity as he have you, he had a better chance at you because you was in his house. As I say, 85 per cent,as it is said by certain writers, 95 per cent of us is destroyed by the white man's blood. You thinking that you are going to get up to his equal by opening your doors to admitting him in, your're only destroying yourself; he's wise, he don't intend on destroying his people, not with your blood . The White Camellia , and the National; party in National Party in America, the Ky Klux Klan, I don't blame them for wanting to keep you out of their family. I don't blame them for not wanting the integration law to pass, because they know what will be the results. I don't want it myself. No. I want separation. Being eaten and destroyed by a people, and then I should say to them: that they teach me for the the purpose of destroying me? No. I want to leave you. We can't get along in peace. We have given you an example in Los Angeles of the white man's very nature. We tried to be at peace with them, we go unarmed, and they don't like that. They pounce upon us like wild animals out of the jungle, and start shooting us up even in our Temple, Killing one,and wounding five or six others,one or two permanently. They want to take care of you in their hospitals with a bullet through your body, or a vast artery, or the spine, they would rather take care of you there cripple, make make mock of you to have you remorse, and they say, "there's a nigger I shot", there's a nigger I killed, there's a nigger I beat." I say to you and I, as Moses said to the Hebrews, under Pharaoh, up, let us get out of here. With the whiteman's anger in the south and his hatred of his once slave, that he don't want him even to sit on the seat besides him.How can you expect that red sun burnt white man with one side of his mouth turning his mouth dyed with brown mule tobacco, to be so friendly with you,to take you today as a brother. The Federal Government has to send an Army to permit one even to get into his school, I say to you my Brother Meredith you was a fool. I say to the government, if you have to sent an army to put me in this school , and to watch me to keep him from killing me, what will he do after you leave? They're called ignorant. No intelligent person would take such foolish chance. I go to your door and knock on it and you tell me " No, don't come in my house." I say to you, thank you, I will go away. I will not go out and tell the police, " Make him let me in his house, I'm suppose to go in there." No. I would be ashamed to tell the police that. Some of our people, lying down on their restaurant floors, and coffee shops, begging and praying . " Let me have a cup of coffee in here with you, let me have a sandwich in here with you, let ne have a meal with you." I am ashamed of my own people, for being so ignorant. The intelligent way to get a person to respect you , is to first respect yourself, and others.Islam, the natural religion of man, is the only cure for the so- called American Negro. It put a sense of dignity in that man; for the first time you feel like a man; for the first time you feel like you should not beg other people to that for you that you can do for yourself. And for the first time in your life, that you find love in your heart for yourself and your kind. You love your people after Islam. But Christianity divides you. We are the results or victims of Christianity. Who made us spiritually blind? It was white Christians who went after our people and put them in chains 400 years and brought them here. Some of us say that Christianity is God's religion and it's Jesus' religion. So foolish a thing Christian beliefs are based on three(3) gods, is based on life after death, based on Jesus rising from the dead, and had a miraculous birth and death. This you have to believe before you could ever be called a Christian, or believe in Christianity. This is contrary from the God's own nature, I am thy God, and me and me alone should you serve. I know no other God. I am the first, and I am the last. It is written,in the birthright. Alright then, how can you say that he is the god, His son is the god and His holy ghost is the god? How can you say something like that? There is no such thing as Jesus was the equal with God. How could he could be equal with his own maker? He admitted that he was not equal with his Father. He admitted that he had no power, but that which he would be given or was given to him from His Father. He said I am not His equal, no I am from Him. I am His servant. Think over that. And I know nothing,only what He has given to me, and I can do nothing without Him Here you come saying he is the equal, he was in the day and all the like of that, when the God was present. Was Jesus here when the heaven and the earth was created? No. He was from that Father, but he was not the equal in making the universe with his Father.The universe was here when he was born, like us. And he knew not how to build a universe, but my Fathers built one. And my wisdom and understanding has not went that high yet to understand how to take my will, and put it into space, and start a planet to swirling out there in a pocket, and create life on it. No, I can't do that, but my Father did that.And Jesus did not do that.Jesus was no more than Abraham or Moses, he was just a prophet.He did his work and he prophesied that I go away; meaning, He will die like all other prophets. "But nevertheless, the Father will send you one to bring you into the knowledge of truth. I can't tell it all myself, but he will send you one. He said you should understand." The white race has made them a little religion to catch black people with. Christianity, if you study it, you will find that the whole of its teachings is nothing but slavery. It's to enslave black people for the service of white people; That's all it's for. Attack me on any of it, and I will prove to you I will lay your religion so bare, barer than your feet, to show you that it's nothing but slavery teaching.There is no such thing as Jesus sitting in a heaven waiting for the final Judgment, he won't be here when the final Judgment come anymore than Moses or Abraham. He's gone back to the earth, or rather he's embalmed, and he will stay there another well 8,000 years. They embalmed him to last 10,000 years, and that his body will disappear at the end of ten thousand years. And it will disappear at this very hour if air is let in that tube that he's in. He's not alive, he looks just like he did the day that they killed him, but he's not alive.Go there and yell to him all you want to, he can't speak, he can't hear you either. I visited in 59, the tomb Abraham, his wife Sarah, and this other woman Hagar, they have them over there . I also saw Jacob's tomb, there over there. But let me tell you one thing,you have been made to believe everything that you hear. without even trying to study it and examine it to see whether or not it was the truth. Just so as long as the devil say "here it is nigger," you took it for granted that it was the truth. We have the emblem of Christianity as a cross, and a crucified man on it right? That is the emblem of Christianity, which means that the people who follow this religion will suffer persecution, they will suffer enslavement, they will suffer death under this particular religion, they will be bound in the power of the white man hand and feet. They won't be able to move their hands for their use, they won't be able to use their feet to walk to that in which that they want to. Their steps will be limited. They are nailed to the cross of Christianity under the power of the white man. Their heads is crowned with thorns, not literally thorns, but that particular ignorant knowledge of the truth, going through their brain cells, like a literal thorn being pricked into the brain. There you are, unable to think for self. Christianity deprives you of that.That's the thorns in your head now. You are stabbed through the heart, you are unable to feel the wounds, you died with grief and sorrow under Christianity. Islam is different. The Holy Qur'an says "He that believe in Allah and in His prophets, and in His book, keeps up prayer, pays the poor rate, there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve"'. And that is right. As soon as you believe in Christianity, it increases your fear.So I say to you my beloved brothers and sisters the time is running on, but I must take a look at this first: If Christianity is the right religion, why must you use a murder sign? That ole cross on yonder field, an emblem,the Christians say of sinning or something like that.Someday, the Christians say, I hope you exchange this cross; for what,for a starry crown.I also say that with them,I hope someday you will change that old cross, to a starry crown.We, the Muslim people, hate the death sign. We the Muslim people, worship God in the best manner. We take for our sign for a religion, the Sun, the Moon, and the Star. They call it the Crescent, the background is the red, it means the Sun.It means this physically, that the Sun gives the freedom of light and warmth. The Moon or Star rather, is a sign or emblem of Justice. In the physical world, it serves as a guiding thing for us in the night, and also the Moon she's in our flag, or in our representing our religion, as equality. In the physical world she helps the Sun to feed the vegetation at night while the Sun doesn't shine on it. She helps the Sun keeps life in equal balance at her equator. This is the magnetic power of the Moon on the Earth, and we call her a sign of equality, because she came from the earth, and now she's helping the earth and confined to the power of the live earth, which she was once of, and is unable to pull away from it, because she don't have the life to leave, now, no conscious,to leave,or to pull her away from there. This is a sign for you and I and the wisdom that you and I should learn. You are a mentally dead nation here, in the midst of a live nation, as the Holy Qur-an say," Allah will bring the dead from the living, and the living from the dead".You are a dead nation and a live nation. Now you can't leave this people until life has been infused in yourself.While you are dead you are rotating around this people, and can't get away from them. This teaching is to give you life, so that you might find a sphere of your own that you can rotate in.So therefore we have a sign of our religion as the Crescent, I say you don't like it. Do you not like the Sun, do you not like the Moon, do you not like the stars, yes you like all of that because that's essential for your own well being or your own life. But without the Sun you couldn't live.And without the Moon's work that she's doing for the earth, her title waves would soon sweep us off into dry land; they have control over them if it was left loose. But the moon keeps the title waves reaching up at her; therefore, they are commanded that they shall not set over the bound or the bound is set in the ocean. And also the stars .We are asking America for freedom in deed. We are asking America for equal justice under her law of justice. We are asking America to let us build ourselves up as equal human beings as she has; build ourselves up in the world of nations as equal to the nations. We must remember my friends, that we have to go from scratch to get to that which is something,that which is salvation to you and I.Don't look for integration, look for separation. You can never be successful in trying to live in the house with the white man as a member of his family, unless you're going to be his slave,and you and you fathers lived in his house for 300 years as his slave and now in a hundred years you are still in the status of a free-slave. You have nothing. You have helped him fight his wars, you have helped him to build a great civilization that is absolutely not equal by any of his brothers, He's the richest of all his brothers, and he has the greatest country of all of his brothers. And you and I have helped them, and our fathers before us for 400 years to come into this great richness that he's enjoying. He has shot his own brothers down that he said was an enemy to us, to him. And then he has put us on our own brothers to kill our own brothers, and we did that [because] he said [our brother] was an enemy of his. Now today I say, try to study for yourself,do you see any hope,do you see any future for 20 million so-called American Negroes in America for yourself, living as you are living, seeking jobs, employment that is created by the whiteman. Do you see a future for yourself,and your nation for the duration of your nation's life? Not under the same condition or in the same condition, begging the white man to go and create jobs for you to be hired on and pay out of his own pocket. The Black man in America faces a serious economic problem today and the white race's Christianity cannot solve it. You, the so-called American Negro, with the help of Allah can solve your own problem. The truth must be recognized by the black man. He himself, has assisted greatly in creating this serious problem of unemployment, insecurity and lack. Before the black man can begin to gain economic security, he must be awakened from the dead and gain knowledge, understanding and wisdom which will enable him to follow my teachings.Islam and only Islam will point the way out of the entanglement of "want in the midst of plenty" for the followers of Islam, the true religion of the black nation. He(Mr.W.F Muhammad, God in person) chose to suffer 3 1/2 years to show His love for His people, who have suffered over 300 years at the hands of a people who by nature are evil and wicked and have no good in them.He was persecuted, sent to jail in 1932, and ordered out of Detroit, on May26, 1933. He came to Chicago in that same year and was arrested almost immediately on His arrival and place behind bars. He submitted Himself with all humbleness to his persecutors. Each time he was arrested, he sent for me so that I might see and learn the price of Truth for us, the so-called American Negroes (members of the Asiatic nation) He was well able to save Himself from such suffering, but how else was the scripture to be fulfilled? We followed in His footsteps, suffering the same persecution. My people are yet sound asleep to the knowledge of the good that is being carried on for their deliverance. The whole world of our kind awaits the awakening, and our awakening is the last step in the Resurrection and Judgment of the world. It is a sin that we were put so soundly to sleep. The end of the world has arrived, and most of us know not. Our enemies' greatest desire is that we remain asleep. My people fight and oppose the God of our own salvation. Allah chose for us Islam as a religion . He desires to set us in Heaven at once, on condition that we submit to Him and accept the religion of Islam, the religion of God and His prophets.In the religion (Islam), He offers us universal friendship, and we who have submitted to Him know this to be true. We know white people have and will continue to persecute anyone who offers help to us, the so-called American Negroes (Asiatics). Should persecution or even death stop the worthy help that will save the lives of the so-called- Negroes? No,it shall not. The so-called Negroes are absolutely friendless and have sought in vain friendship from their enemies, due to the ignorance of self and their enemies. Now they are offered universal friendship if the will only accept their own (Allah and Islam). Seek first the friendship of your own people and then the friendship of other (if there is any friendship in the others). We have made the grave mistake of Lazarus and the Prodigal Son, (St.Luke:Chapter15), the one who was so charmed over the wealth and food of the rich man that he could not leave his gate to seek the same for himself,-regardless of the disgraceful condition in which the rich man puts him,even to sending his dogs to attack him. The angels had to come and take him away. The other(Prodigal Son), being tempted by the loose life of strange women, drinking,gambling, and adultery, cause him to love the stranger's way of life so much so that it cost him all that he originally possessed (self-independence and Divine Guidance). His Father (God in person) had to come and be his representative to again meet his brothers, family, and friends. Nothing fits the description of us better, the so-called Negroes (Asiatics). Many of us today are lazy that we are willing to suffer anything rather than go for self. It is true that our God has come to set us in Heaven, but not a Heaven wherein we will not have to work.Fear is the worst enemy that we have, but entire submission to Allah (God) and His Messenger will remove this fear. The white race put fear in our fore parents when they were babies, so says the the word of Allah. We must have for our peace and happiness (the17,000,000 so-called Negroes) that which others nations have. This before-mentioned peace and happiness cannot come under any other flag but our own.If God desires for us such joy, why shouldn't we give up begging and be real men and sit with the rulers of the earth,ruling our own? Our first step is to give back to the white man his religion (Christianity),his church,and his names. These three are chains of slavery that hold us in bondage to them. We are free when we give up the above three. The  



8 Feb 2006 @ 10:31 by pars @64.180.160.151 : disgusting islam
fuck all muslims and their fucking mohammad blood sucker, they should be wiped off the earth  


8 Feb 2006 @ 10:38 by pars @64.180.160.151 : fuck disgusting muslims
fuck disgusting mohammed, fuck islam, fuck disgusting mohammed, fuck all muslims, fucking muslims are all beasts, fuck this fucking disgustinfg islam  


8 Feb 2006 @ 10:44 by Obaid essa @195.229.242.52 : What does Islam say about terrorism?
Unfortunately more and more often, Islam has been associated with terrorism and violence due to the actions of a few extreme individuals who’ve taken it upon themselves to do the most heinous crimes in the name of Islam.

Tragic events such as the attack on the twin towers in New York, the bombings of Bali, Madrid and London are assumed to be justified by Islam in the minds of some people. This idea has been fueled further by many media channels which defame Islam by portraying these bombers as ‘Islamists’ or ‘Jihadists’, as though they were sanctioned by Islam, or had any legitimate spokemenship on behalf of Muslims. The actions of a few fanatical individuals who happen to have Muslim names or ascribe themselves to the Muslim faith should not be a yardstick by which Islam is judged. For the same reason, that one would not do justice to Christianity if it where perceived as sanctioning the genocide of the Native Americans, the atrocities of world war II or the bombings of the IRA.

To understand Islam’s stance on terrorism, one must refer to its original sources, the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,which are explicit in their prohibition of any form of injustice including that of wanton violence which seeks to instill fear, injury or death to civilians.

The Quran turns our attention to the high value of human life, whether it is Muslim or Non-Muslim and makes it absolutely forbidden to take an innocent life unjustly. The gravity of such a crime is equated, in the Quran, with the killing of all humanity.

“On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.” ( 5:32 )

Not only is human life sacred in Islam but the property, wealth, family and dignity of all individuals in society are to be respected and protected. Those who transgress these rights and sow fasad (corruption) as the Quran describes it, incur the wrath of Allah.

"…and seek not corruption in the earth; lo! Allah loveth not corrupters " (28:77)

Likewise in another verse

“The blame is only against those who oppress men and wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a penalty grievous” (42:42)

Islam goes further than just prohibiting oppression and safeguarding rights, it commands its faithful to deal kindly and compassionately to all those who seek to live in peace and harmony

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (60:8)

In times of war and conflict, where enmity can obstruct an individual’s judgement to act morally, Islam commands that justice be upheld even towards one’s enemies.

"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do" (5:8)

Centuries before the Geneva Convention was drawn up, Muslims were bound by a code of conduct which the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, set. He forbade the killing of women, children and elderly in war. In an authentic narration the Prophet (pbuh) warned that he who kills anyone who has a covenant of peace with the Muslims will not smell the scent of Paradise. In fact, he taught that justice is not only to humans but must be shown to animals and all living things. In a narration the Prophet (pbuh) informed us about how a lady was sent to hell because of a cat she had locked up until it starved and died. If such is the sanctity which Islam places on the soul of an animal, how much more grave is the killing of hundreds of innocent humans?!

Abu Bakr the first Calipha of the Muslims reflected these prophetic teachings when he advised his general Yazid, who was confronting Roman armies,

"I advise you ten things, Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."

The message of the Quran is clear as we have seen, that the sanctity of any human life is to be respected and any violation in that regard is paramount to the worst crime. Mercy is at the heart of the Islamic call, “We sent thee (O Muhammad) not save as a mercy for the peoples” (21:107); a totally different message to what the terrorists are sadly imparting to humanity.
 



8 Feb 2006 @ 11:40 by toni @84.177.106.215 : What I think about the Islam?
In this days we see again what kind of religion the islam is. I am Katholic and believe in god. However, the way how most of the islamic people think is to radical and not acceptable. I live in Germany, here in Germany are lots of Turkish and other islmac people. Somehow are 60% of the Prisoniers in Jails Muslim but in the population in Germany are less than 8% muslims. What I am trying to say is that if people of believe in God and love their religion should always try to understand other religions and also to accept different cultures. Thank you  


8 Feb 2006 @ 12:10 by Salami Fuckallah @194.152.247.158 : AAAAAAAAAAAA
Allahu Akbar. Fuck you all!  


8 Feb 2006 @ 12:32 by ALA @194.165.149.186 : FOR OBAID ESSA
Islam is for all people(white,black,yellow....etc) and Adam is our father as mentioned in Quran. Islam is not only for balck its for all people in the world .  


8 Feb 2006 @ 12:43 by Rich_S @195.160.253.3 : Religion
A common theme of this thread has been respect to other people's religions and I get the impression that most of the posters here are religious in some way. As I said in my post (which got lost amongst the Christian-Muslim mudslinging), non-religious people think that ALL of your various religions are BS. Religious types would do well to consider that before they demand complete respect for their fanciful stories.

So following from this: we have absolute divides between groups of people along the lines of religion, UNLESS each person decides that overall they actually do have something else in common - e.g. membership of a common culture (like "British") and having respect for the rule of law over religion. For for everybody within a country to live in peace we all have to subscribe to those ideas FIRST. Rules of tolerance are great for this - you can live in my country and have all sorts of funny beliefs. I don't mind because peace is better than civil war, but your side of the bargain is to KEEP YOUR RELIGION OUT OF MY FACE.

I think it's important for the religious types here to realise is that aethiests actually do think your religions are bullshit. By common courtesy, we respect your *right to believe* in your religion, but we *don't* actually respect your beliefs at all (otherwise we would be a member of your religion). We have laws to protect your right to believe, but NOT to protect your religion's right to exist.

When people (e.g. the newspaper) breach the common courtesy then they apologise and/or end up in court. If you are upset then you can peacefully demonstrate. But this over-reaction (the rioting and burning), this insistance that non-religious societies should bend over backwards for religious bullshit - that's unreasonable and I find it adhorrent.

As for all the other problems and injustices mentioned in this thread (e.g. war in iraq), well they're separate issues but have been caught up in the reaction. We've got injustice to fight, and past wrongs to right, but if Muslims use protests about cartoons as their vehicle to protest against the conduct of the west in general then they aren't communicating very well - just look how the European media has reacted.

Overall, tolerance in multi-cultural societies is just about your right to life and equal opportunities. It is not about integrating principles of the loudest minority into the rule of law.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 13:23 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : Problems with some muslims!
A Muslim group in Denmark announced that a 30,000-dollar bounty would be paid for the murder of several prominent Danish Jews, a threat that garnered wide international notice. Less well known is that this is just one problem associated with Denmark's (and elsewhere for that matter) approximately 200,000 Muslim immigrants. The key issue is that many of them show very little desire to fit into their adopted country.
For years, Danes lauded multiculturalism and insisted they had no problem with the Muslim customs - until one day they found that they did. Some major issues:
· Living on the dole: Third-world immigrants - most of them Muslims from countries such as Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq - constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.
· Engaging in crime: Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5,4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.
· Self-imposed isolation: Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.
· Importing unacceptable customs: Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death - are one problem.
· Another threat is to kill Muslims who convert out of Islam: One Kurdish convert to Christianity, who went public to explain why she had changed religion, felt the need to hide her face and conceal her identity, fearing for her life.
· Fomenting anti-Semitism: Muslim violence threatens Denmark's approximately 6,000 Jews, who increasingly depend on police protection. One school principal that she could not guarantee their children’s safety and were advised to attend another institution told Jewish parents. Anti-Israel marches have turned into anti-Jewish riots. One organization, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, openly calls on Muslims to "kill all Jews É wherever you find them."
· Seeking Islamic law: Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a not-that remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim.
Other Europeans (such as the late Pim Fortuyn in Holland) have also grown alarmed about these issues, but Danes were the first to make them the basis for a change in government.
In a momentous election last November, a center-right coalition came to power for the first time since 1929 - excluded the socialists. The right broke its 72-year losing streak and won a solid parliamentary majority by promising top handle immigration issues, the electorate's first concern, differently from the socialists.
The next nine months did witness some fine-tuning of procedures: Immigrants now must live seven years in Denmark (rather than three) to become permanent residents. Most non-refugees no longer can collect welfare checks immediately on entering the country. No one can bring into the country an intended spouse under the age of 24. And the state prosecutor is considering a ban on Hizb-ut-Tahrir for its death threats against Jews.
These minor adjustments prompted howls internationally - with European and U.N. reports condemning Denmark for racism and "Islamophobia," the Washington Post reporting that Muslim immigrants "face habitual discrimination," and a London Guardian headline announcing that "Copenhagen flirts with Fascism."
In reality, however, the new government barely addressed the existing problems. Nor did it prevent new ones, such as the death threats against Jews or a recent Islamic edict calling on Muslims to drive Danes out of Noerrebro quarter of Copenhagen.
The authorities remain indulgent. The military mulls permitting Muslim soldiers in Denmark's volunteer International Brigade to opt out of actions they don't agree with - a privilege granted to members of no other faith. Mohammed Omar Bakri, the self-proclaimed London-based "eyes, ears and mouth" of Osama bin Laden, won permission to set up a branch of his organization, Al-Muhajiroun.
Contrary to media reports, the real news from Denmark is not flirting with fascism but getting mired in inertia. A government elected specifically to deal with a set of problems has made minimal headway. Its reluctance has potentially profound implications for the West as a whole.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 15:17 by Hana from Bosnia @203.101.108.27 : Redco
Sorry to hear about your suffering but you are not the only one..there are many of us in the world who have experienced masacres, melting heads, etc..but that does not give us the reason to hate the world for that. We are the crazy once who allowed that to happen, not the world..talking about muslims, religion and respoect for other religions - that is big BS!! there is no respect for other religions by muslims (fundamentalists, non-educated, peasants, mullas etc which make the gretaer majority). We used to be Christians and Ottomans converted us to Islam and the Tito made us communists and now again we have a freedom to chose to be Muslims if we want to..well let me tell you - there is no way on earth we would ever be identified as muslims or believe in islam as u do..it is the craziest interpetation of Kuran and even Mohammad would get sick if he was able to wake up for one day and see what has happened to what it used to be the purest religion now it is a nuclear weapon and spreads hatred. Prove the world wrong and stop acting peacefully, bring some sense of humor into muslim people, start respecting the civil laws of the cuntries that have welcomed milions of muslims - there is no sharia law there - they are not religious but secular, respect the freedom of speech..let the women out of their burqas, mix boys and girls, stop building separate societies for women and man...o man this can go on and on..and i live in a society that is never ever going to become a muslim country - i hope and i? i am going to find a new religion - more peaceful - learn from Buddhists..
why is it so difficult for muslims to face the truth and take a joke? don't be slaves of imaginary things...and keep religion for your own home, direct contact between you and god and that's it!!!  



8 Feb 2006 @ 18:48 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : Hana
hana i think you just take some words of what i said and you talk through it , i said Islam is against this already , and Islam doesn't force anyone to join it , and as i said there is many people who suffer and i didn't say that this is a reason for bad things to happen , we as Muslims we don't accept it , and about terrorism you are talking about it is by people who can't be named or related to Islam by any means , because what they do is totaly against Islam laws , yes against Islam laws , they can't be named as Muslims , killing and all this , is not allowed in Islam , and there is a proplem that you or others think that "Gehad" in a total wrong way , "Gehad" and all the what had been said in Qur'an and Hadith is totaly understood wrong by people who don't know arabic well , it get translated into totaly wrong meanings to other languages , because simply it needs a person who understand arabic very well to show you the meaning in order to translate what it means , not the words meaning just as words but whats meant by these words ,


when you talk about women i would like to tell you it is our Religon and Qur'an our Holy Book , about boys and girls there are laws and we respect our religon and do with it , so don't ask us to do something against our religon , as we don't force you to join it either as we respect yours we don't force you to do things against your religon ,

what joke ??? what truth you are talking about ?? There are religons from God , each one has his religon he choosed , and no one forces another to join it , we don't accept jokes about our believes you should respect this , if you accept it to your religon and its okay with you , we don't so respect this before you talk about it ,  



8 Feb 2006 @ 18:51 by vibrani : Islam doesn't force people to join it?
Like hell it doesn't.

The Muslims burning and trashing buildings, killing people, inciting hatred and death are criminals and should be dealt with as such; arrested and brought to trial and responsible to pay for damages.  



8 Feb 2006 @ 18:53 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : A Dane
dane know the that Islam is totaly against what you just said , those people whom talk by the name of Islam and do all this , can't be named as Muslims or related to Islam , it is totaly missunderstanding of Islam and its orders , at the end it gives a bad name to Islam , but this isn't what Islam says or ask us to do , as i said earlier terrorism can't be related to any RELIGON , please read my post about " for who think Islam is terrorism"  


8 Feb 2006 @ 18:56 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : vibrani
i told you and told all this is not allowed in Islam and it is totaly against it and its laws , and all this what happen is for un responible people who don't understand what Islam really said , thats totaly wrong and which gave a total wrong image for Islam , that's something that Islam doesn't accept it at all  


8 Feb 2006 @ 18:59 by vibrani : Regardless
they are doing it, Redco.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 19:10 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : vibrani
yes vibrani but who do it ?? don't get awhole religon to something that some people who totaly missunderstand Islam and talk by the name of Islam

now we are talking about some people who don't follow even Islam rules , even if they are Muslims , but Islam doesn't accept this

like a simple example Jews or Chirstians or Muslims or any religon

if anyone of them steal something , and he has a religon that doesn't mean that his religon tells him to do this , i think you understand my point here now  



8 Feb 2006 @ 19:15 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : the proplem is
the proplem is you see a bad image of Islam because actions of people who totaly missunderstand Islam and its laws , what these people do is not In Islam , and totaly not allowed not accepted and totaly forribidden , those people who do such things by the name of Islam , they don't understand Islam and these actions are totaly against Islam , and when you people see them talking by the name of Islam and do such things, you think that Islam and Muslims are bad , because actions of people whom totaly missunderstand what REAL ISLAM says  


8 Feb 2006 @ 19:21 by vibrani : *
*  


8 Feb 2006 @ 19:22 by vibrani : It doesn't matter
what religion you are - if you kill, destroy buildings, incite hatred and murder, you're a criminal and should be treated as a criminal. Right now it is a LOT of Muslims who are creating havoc in many countries. They consider themselves Muslim, by their own definition. So it doesn't matter whether or not it's the real Islam. To them it is, and they have the loudest voice, wouldn't you agree?  


8 Feb 2006 @ 19:24 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : One God
all religons whatever its name is for One God One Creator
whom made all these religons to make people follow the right path in life
but...
there are people who are yes from one of these religons but they do something wrong and un accepted within Humand laws + God's Laws in any religon , those people who talk by the name of this religon , whom they totaly don't know what the religon really said , such things which happen we can't say that any religon whatever it is is responible or related to it
, if some people whom do such things , they really don't know or do as what the religon said because it is not allowed in any religon whatever it is  



8 Feb 2006 @ 19:30 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : then you can't say that Islam is a bad
no it matters because you now talk and say that Islam or Muslims are bad or whatever , thats not true because those people you are talking about can't be related to a religon " from your own words"  


8 Feb 2006 @ 19:30 by vibrani : EXACTLY YES
that is the way - to acknowledge that the major religions believe in one God.

The people rioting call themselves Muslims and say they speak for Allah and Mohammad. I know they're full of shit. But they are the loudest voice right now - where are people like you? Do we hear you or other Muslim leaders telling them to stop, that this isn't Islam?  



8 Feb 2006 @ 19:36 by Redco @62.114.93.56 : Yes there are...
yes for sure there are and alot , many of people are there saying about this ,
i want to say that those people who do such things and who talk about Islam that's not what Islam said , + these actions are done by them because they are angry from what happen to them but as i said thats not the way and Islam doesn't accept or allow it at all!!  



8 Feb 2006 @ 19:40 by vibrani : Right
I think we need to hear those leaders, condemning these acts in the name of Islam, much louder.  


8 Feb 2006 @ 19:55 by Redco @62.114.93.2 : then now ....
you can't say that Islam or Christian or Jewish Religons or any other religon are bad for something that some people who are from that religon do things wrong and against what their religon says , they go against it and talk by its name so we can't say that any religon is bad or that all the people who are from this religon are bad

i would like to remind you by my example up of what i said

terrorism is one of the most unliked , hated thing whatever its reasons
there is NO RELIGON order or accept it , it is something totaly forbidden and unaccepted
by all Religons , all Religons are for One GOD , One Creator , whom made those religons
how can God order his people to do bad thing in his religons ????
from this i start talking about why do ppl back the terrorism to Islam and Muslims
Islam never accepted terrorism or ordered it , over all the Islamic History terrorism is something bad
evil and never accepted , if we will talk about terrorism it is not something related to religon or country
or skin color or person clothes , it is related to a group of sick minded people whom went against the rules,laws
and God's orders in all his religons , it cant be related to a relgion because some of the people who did it are
believers of this religon

look at your fingers in the same hand , the finger prints are they the same ??? they are fingers of the same hand , same blood same everything
are they the same ??? , even twins arent the same , not cuz one or more bad person did something wrong which is already
against the religon( God's Law) and humans made law , a whole Religon or country said to be so


a question it is called "Religon" whats the meaning of this word , can someone answer me ??? how can this word
be related to something bad or evil ??? , i want you to think about it for a while deep thinking

once a person who is terrorist which is something evil and bad , he is not a good person , he has no religon cuz
his religon whatever it is doesn't accept it, so simply we can say that a specific religon is terrorism ,or bad for something that those kind of people do by a religon name because no religon whatever it is accept it


thanks for all  



8 Feb 2006 @ 20:22 by Redco @62.114.93.2 : just for people who will come here...
please here we are talking and having a civilaized converstations , not kids one , so please there is no need for insults and so on , thanks

السلام عليكم
اخواني يرجي عدم السب و الشتاءم لأن احنا هنا بنتكلم كلام ناس متحضرين مش همج فياريت محدش يشتم لان كده حتسئ الي صورتنا كعرب و الكلام ده بقوله لان انا عارف ان احنا كلنا مضيقين جدا و متنرفزين من الي حصل بس بلاش شتايم و نكلم بأحترام لو سمحتوا
تحياتي  



8 Feb 2006 @ 22:14 by Hanan Taha @196.202.91.137 : hmmmm
Now Holand and Belgium are OBJECTING on Muslims newspapers having competition on drawing cartoons on the HOLOCUST and America is convicting Iranian newspaper for the same reason...hmmmmm...where is the claimed freedom of expression then?????  


9 Feb 2006 @ 05:42 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : Taboos
Ming,

Your analogy about stretching your legs is not exactly what we have here. An alternative analogy would be if me and you were neighbors. Suddenly your son holds a sign on your front yard calling my late beloved mother some terrible names. I call you to resolve the issue but you refuse claiming that your house rules doesn't allow you to intervene in you child's behavior. Few months later, another neighbor's child holds the same sign. My question is: Do you think I have the right to ask you to stop?. You are assuming that the paper didn't have terrible intention. Knowing what the Queen said just few months earlier and the patern of behaviour of the Danish government make this hard for me to swallow.

No taboos:
Don't get me wrong here; we are not asking for censorship but rather asking for hate speech to stop. If you want to write a book criticizing the prophet Mohammed, then go ahead and do it. If you need any help with supportive material, call me I will help. You can criticize the Quran if you want as well. There are no taboos here. The only thing is: since this is something that means so much to so many people, do it with respect. Present an argument and refrain from insults and hate so we can discuss the issue in a civilized way.

This is not an issue of free speech vs Islam as many are trying to claim. It is an issue of Hate Speech vs Tolerance and Acceptance. To me, Muslims who held the signs in London calling for violence and the people in this forum who called for genocide against Muslims are two sides to the same coin. Abu Hamza Al-Masri and Jyllands-Posten are also two sides to the same coin. They all preach hate. We all should condemn them and ask them to stop.

Cheers  



9 Feb 2006 @ 05:47 by FReeThinkingAmerican @35.12.24.195 : Fuck them and Mohamed too
Seems they dont practice what they preach for a religion that is supposed to be non violent they seem to be some of the most violent bastards on the planet....No apologies here if freedom of the press is a God given right here and if they don't like the pic too bad so sad NOT sorry but in my opinion they really need to get a LIFE if they are losing sleep over stupid cartoons its called POLITICAL SATIRE you MORONS get a life whats next going to burn a flag because I said Mohamed is really a Satan worshiping Lesbian that had a sex change please why not put that effort into rebuilding your war torn countries and feeding the less fortunate....  


9 Feb 2006 @ 06:15 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : see this...
FReeThinkingAmerican ----- all of you saw what he wrote

i would like to say why you would insult a religon and our prophet + putting
FReeThinkingAmerican as your name , maybe you aint either american and just want to start proplems and thats it anyway , as i said up we are having a civilized conversation not kids one , so why insulting and why talk with no respect as along as ALL RELIGONS AND ALL PROPHETS FOR ONE AND ONLY ONE GOD
then why you insult any , it just show us how a kid mind talks , if you are an adult person you would have read and then talked with respect but i will leave others to comment about it specially MING , we aren't here to fight we are here to discuss a political proplem that need to be disscussed between adults civilaized people not Junkie kids who just come to insult and thats it

anyway i thank you for what you have said , and i will not insult you or america or whatever i will just ignore people like you whom they have kids non mature minds and thinking

our Prophet said in hadith " Faltakol khairan aw la tasmot" means that " if you will talk good about something say it else don't say it "
in other words if you will talk in a good way about something good say it , if not then don't talk better

thats why i will not answer you , i respect my religon and others , i respect that we are here to disscuss a proplem not to fight , by the way its really impressive to see what a " FREETHINKER " talks

anyway

thanks 4 all  



9 Feb 2006 @ 06:25 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : you know vibrani
that not even this people dont know but there are many western and many people , still think that Arabs live in deserts in tents , and guess what is it they even think that we ride camels and using computer on it thats when we log in lol , i think thats a point need to be cleared , because i think it is a way of missunderstanting and a kind of shortage in communications between arabs and other outer world

i think that will need a big step to show arabs and Islam to all people to know whats going on , and as i said up while talking with you about that Islam is against these actions of terrorism which is done by the name of Islam by people who goes against Islamic Rules and Laws

there is a big hole a big gap in the communications between both sides , which will need to be solved , maybe thats another reason for some kind of proplems that happens i think

see ya later  



9 Feb 2006 @ 06:36 by vibrani : Carlos Santana
on the Grammy Awards tonight reminded people of something (in Hebrew):
Kadosh kadosh kadosh adonai zevaot melo kol ha-aretz kvodo, holy, holy, holy is Adonai Zevaot; the whole world is filled with God’s glory. Let there be peace everywhere.

Even the angels in heaven (according to Jewish tradition) each of whom has a special responsibility, an expertise, or a concern, kulak knead omni vomit b’yirah stand united in their reverent praise of God with that saying.

Redco - there still are nomadic Arabs who live in tents in the desert, as there are modern Arabs living in extremely modern buildings, going to shop at huge malls with more conveniences and riches than America. The Arab world has those two drastic sides; the modern education with the Koran. But, how do those two really work together - how does the Koran adjust to modern times? I really don't know the answer to that - maybe you can answer it. I find it hard to see how they work together when with all the hi technology and still women are covered up and can't drive or vote or have sexual freedom or have higher education and careers in many Muslim and Arab countries.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 06:41 by Hana @203.101.108.27 : to Redco - denial
Man you are living in denial!! Look around yourself, there are masses and masses of those crazy lunatics going on rampage over a simple cartoon..to me they were only looking for an excuse to express all their anger that has built up by living in misery, poverty, rigid laws etc..why blame non-muslims?? It is a know fact that musims are the worst people to themsleves..when there are no enemies of their own religion they fight among themselves, we had it in bosnia (crazy idiots but they did not fight in a name of religion as it means a shit to the majority of people there - in fact immams do make a good money cheating poor people who have to have some feight and believe in something - or collecting money from rich arab countries and spending on mistreses and whiskey and cigateres...) Been there, seen it all!!! then you had iraq vs iran for almost a decade, than what muslims have done to stop all the suffering of their palestinan brothers for so many years...so don't blame israelies, blame muslims for not standing up for their own brothers..

Certainly there are enourmous mountains of hypocrisy among the muslim world. Certainly crazy idots such as Bush did no help the overal stability situation in the world having their own crusade against sadam and bin laden..giving fundametalists even more reasons to act as the whole world is witnesing last 2 weeks...

you may be a nice man, with pure beliefs but you als have to accept the crule reality that the "other" majority is taking over and nobody is doing anything to stop them (mening moderate muslim leaders, people etc)..

comparing other religions reaction if somebody steals something - let me remind you, i don't have to be religios to know that is bad - any civilized country would identify that as criminal offence but they would not cut a persons hands!!?? so there are many extremes which i believe the rest of the world would prefer if it stays within your own communities and countries.

Last but not least, of course ismal is imposing its own rules and religion and glorifying it as the supreme one ... that is also truth!!! I travelled i many ismaic countries and was asked so many crazy question - like entering the counrty and asking me what is my religion?? what a hell is the problem of the customes guy what is my religion??!! becouse i had a pack of cigarettes in my pocket!! So, with pleasure I replied i do not believe in God!! so, if i was a citizen of muslim countries - I guess I would have been dead by now!! Such a pure and peaceful religion!! and certainly not forcing people to believe in islam and respect its crazy laws???!!!

wake up, research, read, talk to other cultures and be realistic...stop living in denial..nobody is stoping you being religious in your free time and at home - it is private not way of life...start working, making money, paying bills, paying taxes and eventually helping other cultures and religions in humaniatarian way..at the moment it is the other way around (only few muslim countries are well of, majority is poor and underdeveloped receiving enormous amounts of aid money from the tax payers whom they are at the moment attacking!!!)

there is no comapssion among in islam...(was it there ever - would not know?)  



9 Feb 2006 @ 06:47 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : yes there are still people live in tents
but they can be counted on your fingers , if you know what i mean =] , they aren't ignorent though , anyway what i meant is that there is a miss of communication between Arabs and others , which make a wall between them , diffcult to communicate with each other and some times leads to missunderstandings , thats what i meant , and which need to be solved =]  


9 Feb 2006 @ 06:50 by Mohammed Sucks Ballz @70.152.163.112 : Fuck Mohammed
Yup.. FUCK mohammed the mohammy islam doo shit eating fuckers!
Mohammed can slow suck my juicy ass balls and even lick on my dick a little.. muslims or whatever the fuck you call those turds can slow lick my doo doo soaked ass!  



9 Feb 2006 @ 06:55 by vibrani : Oh not so Redco
there are thousands of nomads - even in Israel. You know what? They also don't want their women to attend school or improve their lives. This is one of my fields of focus, Redco. You may not like it, but here are a couple of pages on my site that deal with this [link] and [link], and please read this article.

Here's an article from this past year: Hassin al-Sana, a veteran volunteer at the association for the improvement of the status of women in the Negev Bedouin town of Lakia, was awakened by her neighbors at 1 A.M. The association's textile workshop had been set on fire. It turned out the blaze had been started by individuals who oppose the association; they had broken a window, poured incendiary liquid inside and ignited it. "It took firefighters 40 minutes to get here, by which time we had put the fire out ourselves," Sana said. "It was hard for me to see the place, it hurt."

The next morning, as the dozens of women employed in the workshop surveyed the damage, many of them broke into tears. "There are women who support their children from this work," Sana said. "I myself collapsed and was taken to the hospital."

The fire was not the first time the workshop has been targeted. But this time the women decided not to keep silent. Yesterday they organized a protest against the vandalism and against the men who are trying to destroy what they are building.

Bedouin woman are probably the most deprived group in Israel. Although in recent years many young women have finished high school and even gone to university, they usually return home afterward and do not work.

Hence the importance of the workshop. In addition to the textile work, the workshop operates a mobile library, the only one in Lakia, which serves some 400 children, as well as a literacy project for women in Arabic and Hebrew. The association also operates a daily pre-school for working mothers from 7 A.M. to 2:30 P.M. and runs a leadership development project for teenage girls.

But its flagship is the textile workshop, which employs 165 women from Lakia and the surrounding unrecognized Bedouin communities, and is probably the largest employer of Bedouin women in the Negev.

Welfare authorities estimate the unemployment rate among Bedouin women at between 85 and 89 percent. To overcome the cultural aversion to women working outside the home, they take the work home with them. "They create traditional Negev Bedouin embroidered designs," including bags, pillows, and tablecloths, said the association's treasurer Ataf Ataf Abu Sa'ad. The products are sold at the Eretz Israel Museum and the Haifa Museum among other places, and they recently received a large order from the chain store GRAS.

But embroidery is also part of the project; the women participate in courses on health, relations with the school, and other subjects. The project has won recognition and support from a number of bodies, among them the New Israel Fund and the European Union.

The fire consumed raw materials, seared sewing machines and caused major structural damage that will keep it shut for at least a month, according to the women who work there. "I managed to send my son who is studying in Germany 500 shekels a month from what I make here," one woman told the group gathered at the protest.

The torching of the workshop is about more than material damage. "There are people who want Bedouin women to stay at home," Abu Sa'ad said. "The men are jealous. `Why should a woman drive, why should a woman take the leadership away from us'[they say]?"

"We are directing our protest to the whole community," Amal al-Sana, who founded the association, said.

MK Taleb al-Sana, a resident of Lakia, who came to express support for the women, said, "Not only can't the Bedouin community catch up to the Jewish community, it can't catch up to the Arab community. And we can't get ahead unless we make it possible for women to become educated and take initiatives."

The gathering also protested the phenomenon of vandalism that is rife in the town. "We feel a lack of belonging to society, and so we see computers stolen from the schools and the breaking of street lamps," MK Sana said.

"There was a time when there was not one thief or drug addict here," al-Karim al-Sana, Amal al-Sana's father, said. "People cared about each other. Everybody went to work every morning, we even had a soccer team that made it to the second division. Today nobody cares. This association is our hope to bring back a little of what once was."  



9 Feb 2006 @ 07:05 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : Hana
hana what you talk about is the example i said , don't take it like ISLAM done this and ISLAM did that , it is a Religon like all other religons and all are for one God , about Muslims not all of them , and i said it is due to missunderstanding of Islamic rules , what you are talking about happens in all countries not only in arabian countries , not only by muslims , there are bad people everywhere , sick minded people and crazy people whatever their religon is , it isn't a reason or something that we talk about it , it is personality of the person him self not his Religon ,
===============================hana=================
i do not believe in God!! so, if i was a citizen of muslim countries - I guess I would have been dead by now!! Such a pure and peaceful religion!! and certainly not forcing people to believe in islam and respect its crazy laws???!!!
========================hana=================

ofcourse not , why you build something on it like this , we don't know why he would ask you such a question he is a person not THE RELIGON , he is a human
so what ?!!! and as i said there is a big gap in communications which lead you to think that you would be dead if you said so , come on that not true

for example people come as tourists , in my college which is a german college , Doctors , T.As , and stuff are germans and live in the country nothin happens , we respect all religons and religons are free for all to choose and i would like to say from Qur'an by means that " you have your religon , i have my religon "

please try to understand it , in ISLAM , ISLAM DOESN'T FORCE ANY PERSON TO JOIN IT , thats what ISLAM says

don't build something because of a person , i would like to say also who said that this person who asked you is a MUSLIM , in arabian countries there are Christians Jews and Muslims , you just choosed and build on one religon thats it

and it is not something about religon at all , it is humans actions , simply in any country , a person of any religon , who did something wrong that doesn't mean that all of this RELIGON AND ALL WHO BELIEVE IN IT ARE LIKE HIM OR HER!!!!

even your finger prints in same hand same person same blood same everything EXCEPT THERE FINGER PRINTS

same country same food same laws same religon same everything EXCEPT WAY OF THINKING AND PERSONALITY AND WHAT THEY DO  



9 Feb 2006 @ 07:17 by vibrani : *
*  


9 Feb 2006 @ 07:17 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : vibrani
vibrani , i want you to differntiate between two things there is Islamic rules , which gives women the right to work and so many things about freedom , and there are arab laws which i mean from long ago , i don't know if you understand what i mean by it because i don't know how to describe it well , anyway arab laws which are old from long time ago and live with it even after Islam comes , Islam gave freedom to women in many things thats what you dont know or see , because simply there are people who still work with arab old rules which is no education and so on , and thats what happens in farms and the south arabs , ah now i remember arab old habits i can call it so , which arent all of them good , it was so old and people do it but they are few

i want to say also there are many educated women and women who work and have freedom in thier lives for example in Egypt and many other countries of arabs
we don't force women , but i understood your point , unfortunatly what you talk about is that those are the people who have such old arabian habits before Islam , if you are talking about Islam , and i talk about Islam not other religons okay so it be clear no offence

as i said before and i said it many times vibrani not all do what Religon says , and thats not only in Islam but in all religons whatever they are, because it is about human and person personality and way of thinking thats all  



9 Feb 2006 @ 07:18 by vibrani : Now wait a minute
If you have visited Israel and that's stamped on your passport, the majority of Arab countries will not allow you into theirs. That is based on religion. Muslims always make it about religion - most often theirs. And yes, there are fundamentalists in all religions and they act the same way, but not all of them would kill at the drop of a hat. Only Muslims will saw of someone's head or hands or feet or hang and cut open people in public and celebrate it. Jews, Christians, Buddhists do NOT do that barbaric stuff.  


9 Feb 2006 @ 07:21 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : yes
"fundamentalists in all religions and they act the same way " , HUMANS BUT RELIGON DIDN'T ORDER OR SAID SO =] so it is People not Muslims not Jews not Christians , People  


9 Feb 2006 @ 07:21 by vibrani : But Redco
these things are combined, Islam and old Arabian laws. Jordan and Egypt have been working their way out of it, but they still have a way to go. The other Arab nations, forget it.  


9 Feb 2006 @ 07:37 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : they are all working to solve it
there are tv programs , news papers , Religous Leaders Islamic Chirsitans Shiekhs and Papas ON T.Vs try to solve it out , in all these countries all religous figures united together to end it up , there is an internal union with religon between different religons and belive me when i say that there are people who are from any religons regardless what it is , do wrong things , and do against the correction of bad habits , for their own sake and personal profit, and those kind of people and bad habits are in every country and everywhere , and not only in arabian world , but see this those people can't be related to a religon , they can be classified as " Own Personal Profit People "
for so many reasons i just genralized it under this name whatever the profit is , anyway what i want to say is that we as Youth , boys and girls and old and youngs , Muslim and Christian and all Religons people and Famous Figures who represent the religons , and have effective words in society work together to correct this , and working on it , in all countries not only Egypt and Jordan , not only Arabs , but everywhere there are bad habits which are different from each country and society from one another , and all trying to solve it up  



9 Feb 2006 @ 07:40 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : vibrani a question
i have a question to you i forgot to ask you about , yesterday you wrote something and i answered you , but when the page refreshed i saw that your post got edited and got longer by 3 lines , how could you edit it ??  


9 Feb 2006 @ 07:44 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : don't understand me wrong
when i say Islamic and Christians because i dont know about Jews , there are so few there in my country , and it is mainly Islam and Christians , so thats what i talk about ,maybe there are Jews too ofcourse who do the same in other countries but i don't know about it thats why i didn't talk about it , so don't take this in a wrong way =]  


9 Feb 2006 @ 08:07 by Redco @62.114.93.17 : see ya
sorry now i will need to go , it was nice civilaized conversation and nice to talk with you , i really wish that all of us could coaperate together and work together in one union relgardless religon color country , together as under one kind Humans that Belives in One God , for peace and good life , and to understand each other well

thanks for all , have a nice day/night

see ya later =] Al Salam Alykoum (Peace Be Upon You )  



9 Feb 2006 @ 08:13 by vibrani : Redco
you should have an edit feature for your posts. Then you can erase and make corrections. You can't delete them in this log, though.  


9 Feb 2006 @ 08:14 by vibrani : Be cool, Redco
talk with you later. Peace.  


9 Feb 2006 @ 09:11 by Another Danish Guy @80.164.65.4 : Disrespect
you keep saying all muslims aren´t gulty in terorisme ect. and i agree but aparently whole of Denmark have insulted Islam. I´ve seen more and more disrespect towards Denmark even within my own coutry by more and more muslims, for 1 thing muslims taking drawings that never been printed in the paper and yett using em to make there point, guess the number of drawings dosen´t really matter, but it clearly shows that theise people was going to make sure that there would be trouble 1 way or the other. Second one of the leading muslims in Denmark says he want this to end and yett on Arab TV he speaks negative about Denmark and supporting trade blocking ect. And then i hear muslim kids take a Danish flag to school here in Denmark and burn it, witch is against the law here, who let there kids do anything like that? i wouldn´t let my kids disrespect another countrys Flag or our own, or religios symbols for that matter. When a big muslim leader in our country says 1 thing on Danish tv and another on Arab it makes things even worse and it makes the trust even less.


i respect other religions but truth is MANY muslims in Denmark have no intention to live by Danish law or even be a part of our country, they live in big gettos and only are among there own. I got a few muslim friends that are part of Denmark they live here work here and follow our laws. And i welcome muslims to Denmark but if they only want to live with there own and some even says they want muslim laws here, then they should go live in countrys with muslim laws. What they don´t understand is in the westernworld we don´t let any religion have any power in our country what so ever.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 09:18 by dxb_almarah @213.42.2.11 : mohammed
In The Name Of Allaah The Most Merciful, The Ever Merciful
A declaration condemning the attack by reporters from Denmark and Norway against the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam
All perfect praise is due to Allaah; I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah and that Muhammad is His Slave and Messenger; may Allaah exalt his mention, as well as his family and all his companions.
To proceed:
One of the greatest things that makes a Muslim proud is his belief and love of the Messenger, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam (may Allaah exalt his mention). Muslims believe in all the Messengers and the Prophets, may Allaah exalt their mention, and do not distinguish between any of them -- except that our Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, is the last and final messenger and prophet, and he is the best of them. He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, is the first one for whom the gates of Paradise will be opened; belief in him, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, is the way to Paradise, as no one among those who were born after his prophethood, will be permitted entry (i.e. to Paradise) unless they had believed in him, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam.
What can one say in response to the sarcastic caricatures published in the Jyllands Posten newspaper from Denmark, in its issue dated Tuesday, September 30 th 2005? Whom was this newspaper mocking? It was mocking the greatest man ever created … the leader of all the Prophets, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. They featured evil, shameless images of him, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, as shameless as any disbeliever’s imagination can be.
Again, in the days of ‘Eed Al-Adh-Haa, to confirm their enmity, the Magazint newspaper from Norway repeated the same attack, as if they were trying to re-open the old wound, when they republished the images that were published in the first newspaper. Indeed, what Allaah said about the disbelievers is true:
أَتَوَاصَوْا بِهِ بَلْ هُمْ قَوْمٌ طَاغُونَ
which means: “Did they suggest it to them (i.e. did the former disbelievers pass on these words to the Makkans so that they repeat the same expressions)? Rather, they [themselves] are a transgressing people.”[Ath-Thaariyaat: 53].
What can one say in response to this open declaration of enmity? Should we look to the other side, deafen our ears and keep our mouths shut, while our hearts are still beating?
I swear by The One Who honored Muhammad and exalted his rank! Our graves are dearer to us than being incapable of uttering the truth and defending our messenger, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. Indeed! My father, my grandfather and my honor are in sacrifice for Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam.
The rank of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam: There is no phrase that can encompass all the features of greatness of this great Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam; and there are not enough words to describe his greatness -- a greatness that overwhelmed all people in all ages, and was decreed to be eternal. It is this greatness that is instilled in all hearts, settled in all souls, felt by all the people and even the enemies of Islaam.
The Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, possessed the perfect manners which no one can possess; a lofty rank which no one can reach. He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the wisest person; the one with the most sound mind and opinion; the most generous -- whose alacrity in spending was said to be faster than a fast wind. He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, used to spend like a person who never feared poverty due to spending. He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, used to spend so generously, yet went to sleep hungry. He never saved anything, and used to instruct his companions, may Allaah be pleased with them, to be generous, saying: “Spend (charitably) O Bilaal! And do not fear that Allaah will decrease your provision (due to your spending)”.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the most tolerant of all people and the kindest; if someone abused him, he would forgive him, and the harsher a person was, the more patient he, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, would become. He was most lenient and forgiving, especially when he had the upper hand and the power to retaliate.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the most humble person -- he used to mix with the poor and the needy; he used to sit with the elderly and the widows; a young girl could take him by the hand to fulfill a need she had, and he, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, would go to fulfill it. He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, never wore anything to distinguish himself from his companions or appear in higher rank than them.
He was most lenient, and if he was given a choice between two matters, he chose the easiest, as long as it was not a form of disobedience to Allaah. On the other hand, he, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the most firm with regards to fulfilling the obligations and supporting the truth. He was never enraged for a personal matter, but if one of the limits of Allaah was transgressed, he, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, would become angry and his face would become extremely red.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the bravest person, one with the strongest will power and determination; he faced matters with steadfastness and patience, and would go through tough times and situations with firmness and perseverance.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, never uttered abusive words; he was clear in his statements and chose his words carefully. He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was chaste, pure and the most honest and truthful of all people.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the most just, even if the opponent was an enemy; penal laws would be imposed even against the people closest to him, and he even swore to this effect saying: “I swear by Allaah! If Faatimah, the daughter of Muhammad were to steal, I would amputate her hand”.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the most pure in his soul, the loftiest in spirit and the most knowledgeable about his Lord. He gave each one his due right -- he gave his Lord His right, his friend his due right, his wife her due right and his mission its due right.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was the most ascetic and the farthest from clinging to worldly material possessions; he ate whatever he was offered and never turned down any type of food and never requested and craved for what was not available, he slept on a straw mat.
He, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was kindest towards the weak and most merciful to the miserable. His mercy included both humans and animals, and he, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, warned his companions against being harsh towards animals, as when he, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, said: “A woman was punished in Hell because of a cat which she had confined until it died. She did not give it to eat or to drink when it was confined, nor did she free it so that it might eat the vermin of the earth.” [Al-Bukhaari and Muslim].
If the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, had conferred no other favor upon humanity than conveying the message of guidance and the Qur’aan from his Lord to the people, then this would have been enough favor, for which the people could never do enough to express their gratitude or to reward him.
The above was but a glimpse from the light of prophethood, and a ray from the lamp of the bright manners of Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam; there is still a lot that one can say, which time does not permit.
Let them ask history: Has it ever witnessed a man greater than Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, who was above any deficiency and the farthest from sin?
What Westerners say about the Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam: Some of the famous, contemporary personalities who read the biography of the Messenger of Allaah, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, could not help but admit that he was a master with excellent manners and an honorable character, and the following are some of their sayings:
· Michael Hart , author of ‘The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History’ said: "My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.”
· George Bernard Shaw, the British playwright said: “The world is in dire need of a man with the mind of Muhammad; religious people in the Middle Ages, due to their ignorance and prejudice, had pictured him in a very dark way as they used to consider him the enemy of Christianity. But after looking into the story of this man I found it to be an amazing and a miraculous one, and I came to the conclusion that he was never an enemy of Christianity, and must be called instead the savior of humanity. In my opinion, if he was to be given control over the world today, he would solve our problems and secure the peace and happiness which the world is longing for.”
· Annie Besant, wrote in ‘The Life and Teachings of Muhammad’ : “It is impossible for anyone who studies the personality of the great Prophet of the Arabs, and come to know how this prophet he used to live, and how he taught the people, but to feel respect towards this honorable prophet; one of the great messengers whom Allaah sent”
· Alphonse de La Martaine wrote in ‘Historie de la Turquie’: "If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls. Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire -- that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?”
· J.W.H. Stab wrote in ‘Islam and its Founder ’ : “ Judged by the smallness of the means at his disposal, and the extent and permanence of the work that he accomplished, no name in world's history shines with a more specious luster than that of the Prophet of Makkah. To the impulse, which he gave, numberless dynasties have owed their existence, fair cities and stately palaces and temples have arisen, and wide provinces became obedient to the Faith. And beyond all this, his words have governed the belief of generations, been accepted as their rule of life, and their certain guide to the world to come. At a thousand shrines the voices of the faithful invoke blessings on him, whom they esteem the very Prophet of God, the seal of the Apostles… Judged by the standards to human renown, the glory of what mortal can compare with his?”
· Dr. Gustav Weil writes in ‘History of the Islamic Peoples ’: “Muhammad was a shining example to his people. His character was pure and stainless. His house, his dress, his food - they were characterized by a rare simplicity. So unpretentious was he that he would receive from his companions no special mark of reverence, nor would he accept any service from his slave which he could do for himself. He was accessible to all and at all times. He visited the sick and was full of sympathy for all. Unlimited was his benevolence and generosity as also was his anxious care for the welfare of the community.”
· Th e British philosopher, Thomas Carlyle, who won the Nobel Prize for his book ‘The Heroes’ wrote: “It is a great shame for any one to listen to the accusation that Islaam is a lie and that Muhammad was a fabricator and a deceiver. We saw that he remained steadfast upon his principles, with firm determination; kind and generous, compassionate, pious, virtuous, with real manhood, hardworking and sincere. Besides all these qualities, he was lenient with others, tolerant, kind, cheerful and praiseworthy and perhaps he would joke and tease his companions. He was just, truthful, smart, pure, magnanimous and present-minded; his face was radiant as if he had lights within him to illuminate the darkest of nights; he was a great man by nature who was not educated in a school nor nurtured by a teacher as he was not in need of any of this.”
· Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, the German writer said: “Us, Europeans, with all our concepts could not reach what Muhammad has reached, and no one will be able to precede him. I have looked in the history of humanity for an example and found that it was Muhammad, as the truth must be revealed. Indeed, Muhammad succeeded to subdue the entire world to monotheism”.
Truthfulness of the Prophethood of Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam: If the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, did not have anything to support the truthfulness of his message, except his praiseworthy biography and the eternal legislation he came with, then that would have been sufficient for the one who has a mind to ponder with and reflect.
The fact that the religion of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, remained established and prevailed throughout the long periods of history, and people entered into it in large numbers, is the greatest evidence proving that he, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, was truly a messenger from Allaah.
Ibn Taymiyyah , may Allaah have mercy upon him, said: “The early prophets have informed their people that one who falsely claims to be a prophet will not last, but for a short period. One of the Christian kings heard a man from the chiefs of the Christians cursing Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and accusing him of being a liar, so he gathered the scholars of the Christians and asked them how long would the one who falsely claims to be a prophet last. They informed him the news that was conveyed by the Prophets, that it would not be but a short number of years -- the longest would be around thirty years. Upon hearing this, he said to them: ‘The religion of Muhammad has lasted for more than five or six hundred years until now (up to his time) and it is prevailing and accepted and people still follow it, so how can this man be a liar?’ Thereafter, he beheaded the man who accused the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, of being a liar.”
Defending the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam: One of the rights of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, upon Muslims is that we love, honor and glorify him, follow his Sunnah and defend him. The age we live in is full of evil and afflictions befalling the Muslim nation, where we are seeing vicious attacks by some monks and priests against the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. Despite the fact that their cursing and attacking him, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, enrages us, yet we see it as a sign of the nearness of our victory and their destruction.
The early Muslims used to see it as glad tidings regarding the defeat of their enemies when they cursed and attacked the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. Ibn Taymiyyah, may Allaah have mercy upon him, said: “Allaah will extract revenge for His Messenger from those who slander and attack him. Allaah will make His religion prevalent and will expose the lies of the liars if the people cannot apply the penal law a slanderer deserves.”
Many trustworthy Muslim scholars have conveyed numerous accounts of their practical experiences in different cities in the Levant. They said: ‘The Muslims used besiege the Romans for long periods, like a month and more, until they (i.e. the Muslims) almost gave up on victory; no sooner than the dwellers of those Roman cities would start cursing the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, that Allaah facilitated victory and we conquered them. It was never delayed for more than a day or two after they started cursing and defaming the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. When we did win, we used to kill large numbers of them.’ People from Morocco also told me the same thing.”
Our duty in defending and supporting the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam:
Allaah says:
فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّورَ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ مَعَهُ أُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ
which means: “So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him — it is those who will be the successful.”[Al-A’raaf: 157]. Therefore, it is our duty to support the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam.
There are many things that an individual can do to support the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. The following are some of them:
· Officially condemn the attack on all levels, and sound your objection strongly. It is strange how we usually condemn other matters of lesser significance, but this time, people have remained inexplicably silent. It is also strange that the foreign minister of England condemned this outrage before any of the Muslims, who should have done so before anyone else.
· Register your objection with the official local authorities like ministries of Islaamic affairs and Islaamic organizations.
· Sound your objection to social Islaamic foundations, organizations and bodies.
· Thinkers, official leaders and scholars in different fields must proclaim their condemnation of this outrage and openly object to it using all means, especially the pulpits of the two Sacred Mosques.
· Islaamic centers in the West must sound their objections and respond to this.
· Muslims must send e-mails objecting to and condemning the publication of these images to all the organizations and people concerned, and to anyone with influence in the Western communities. If millions of e-mails were received from Muslims in this regard, this would certainly have a noticeable impact on the situation.
· Buy airtime on TV and radio stations and broadcast programs in defense of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam and express support. Muslims who are established and eloquent speakers, and who are aware of the way to address the West should be invited to address the issue.
· Write forceful articles for publication in magazines and newspapers, even if one has to buy the space as if it was an advertisement, and publish these articles on the internet as well.
· Employ professional production companies to produce video tapes which present the summary of the life of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, highlight his virtues and good manners, and refute some of the most common misconceptions about the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam.
· Print books and leaflets about the biography of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and address some of the misinformation in the West regarding him, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam.
· Hold meetings, conventions and deliver talks in universities especially in the United States to counter this attack.
· Provide a clear response by scholars, clarifying the Islamic ruling regarding those who attack and slander any Prophet or Messenger, may Allaah exalt their mention, and especially our Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam; arranging for some scholars and students of knowledge to respond to this vicious attack and fabricated lies on the internet.
· Hold international exhibitions at airports, market places, malls and public places after arranging with the local authorities, to highlight some aspects of the excellence of the personality of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam.
· Make material available in different languages that address the life of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, in order to highlight his noble manners and his perfect personality. Simultaneously, this would serve to counter the attack made against the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam.
· Exchange useful ideas that will enable a person who loves and glorifies the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, to participate in the campaign of defending and supporting him, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and expressing their love to him. One person could translate some material, another could financially support some effort, and a third could write articles and so on, until this becomes a worldwide campaign.
· Produce CDs that talk about the features of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and freely distribute them.
· Start a monthly magazine that talks only about the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and bring to light some of events in his life and how he dealt with his enemies.
· Hold international conventions on the mercy of Islaam – laying stress on how Islaamic duties are easy and simple to follow, and that all the accusations against the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, are false and nothing but mere lies. If every Muslim country held a convention to counter the attack against the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, this by itself would convey a message to the world that attacking the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, is something that the Muslims will not tolerate.
The duty of those working on the internet and website owners:
Establishing databases on the internet about the biography of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, in all languages. This has already been done by two organizations: The International Committee for Supporting the Final Messenger, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam and The Committee for Supporting the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam. However, just two groups are not enough; our efforts must be united in order to have a stronger impact.
· Forming groups of people that highlight the merits of Islaam and the status of all the Prophets and Messengers in Islaam, may Allaah exalt their mention, and other topics.
· Establishing sites and chat rooms that concentrate on the biography of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and highlight that his message is a universal one.
· Carrying out calm debates with non-Muslims and inviting them to study the personality and life of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and the religion that he was sent with.
· Sending e-mails that talk about the personality of the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and his mission, especially during major occasions.
· Advertising books or lectures that talk about the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and his biography in popular search engines.
Finally, we ask Allaah to support His religion and to humiliate the enemies of Islaam.
Produced by:
www.islam.ws
www.islam-qa.com
Supervised by:
Skaykh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid
[link]  



9 Feb 2006 @ 09:22 by dxb_almarah @213.42.2.28 : this is mohammed
The Prophet's Attributes and Manners

The Prophet combined both perfection of creation and perfection of manners.

This impression on people can be deduced by the bliss that overwhelmed their hearts and filled them with dignity. Men’s dignity, devotion and estimation of the Messenger of Allâh were unique and matchless. No other man in the whole world has been so honoured and beloved. Those who knew him well, were fascinated and enchanted by him. They were ready to sacrifice their lives for the sake of saving a nail of his from hurt or injury. Being privileged by lots of prerogatives of perfection that no one else had been endowed with, his Companions found that he was peerless and so they loved him.

Here we list a brief summary of the versions about his beauty and perfection. To encompass all which is, admittedly, beyond our power.

Beauty of Creation:

Describing the Messenger of Allâh , who passed by her tent on his journey of migration, Umm Ma‘bad Al-Khuza‘iyah said to her husband:

"He was innocently bright and had broad countenance. His manners were fine. Neither was his belly bulging out nor was his head deprived of hair. He had black attractive eyes finely arched by continuous eyebrows. His hair glossy and black, inclined to curl, he wore long. His voice was extremely commanding. His head was large, well formed and set on a slender neck. His expression was pensive and contemplative, serene and sublime. The stranger was fascinated from the distance, but no sooner he became intimate with him than this fascination was changed into attachment and respect. His expression was very sweet and distinct. His speech was well set and free from the use of superfluous words, as if it were a rosary of beads. His stature was neither too high nor too small to look repulsive. He was a twig amongst the two, singularly bright and fresh. He was always surrounded by his Companions. Whenever he uttered something, the listeners would hear him with rapt attention and whenever he issued any command, they vied with each other in carrying it out. He was a master and a commander. His utterances were marked by truth and sincerity, free from all kinds of falsehoods and lies."

‘Ali bin Abi Talib describing him said: "The Messenger of Allâh was neither excessively tall nor extremely short. He was medium height among his friends. His hair was neither curly nor wavy. It was in between. It was not too curly nor was it plain straight. It was both curly and wavy combined. His face was not swollen or meaty-compact. It was fairly round. His mouth was white. He had black and large eyes with long haired eyelids. His joints (limbs) and shoulder joints were rather big. He had a rod-like little hair extending from his chest down to his navel, but the rest of his body was almost hairless. He had thick hand palms and thick fingers and toes. At walking, he lifted his feet off the ground as if he had been walking in a muddy remainder of water. When he turned, he turned all. The Prophethood Seal was between his shoulders. He is the Seal of Prophets, the most generous and the bravest of all.

His speech was the most reliable. He was the keenest and the most attentive to people’s trust and was very careful to pay people’s due in full. The Prophet was the most tractable and the most yielding companion, seeing him unexpectedly you fear him and venerate him. He who has acquaintance with him will like him. He who describes him says: ‘I have never seen such a person neither before nor after seeing him.’ "

Jabir bin Samurah reported that Allâh’s Messenger had a broad face with reddish (wide) eyes and lean heels.

Abu At-Tufail said: "He was white, good-looking. He was neither fat nor thin; neither tall nor short."

Anas bin Malik said: "He had unfolded hands and was pink-coloured. He was neither white nor brown. He was rather whitish. In both his head and beard there were as many as twenty grey hairs, besides some grey hairs at his temples." In another version: "and some scattered white hairs in his head."

Abu Juhaifa said: "I have seen some grey colour under his lower lip." Al-Bara’ said: "He was of medium height, broad-shouldered, his hair went up to his earlobes. I saw him dressed in a red garment and I (assure you) I have never seen someone more handsome. At first he used to let his hair loose so as to be in compliance with the people of the Book; but later on he used to part it."

Al-Bara’ also said: "He had the most handsome face and the best character." When he was asked: "Was the Messenger’s face sword-like?" "No," he said: "it was moon-like." But in another version: he said, "His face was round." Ar-Rabi‘ bint Muawwidh said: "Had you seen him, you would have felt that the sun was shining." Jabir bin Samurah said, "I saw him at one full-moony night. I looked at him. He was dressed in a red garment. I compared him with the moon and found that — for me — he was better than the moon."

Abu Hurairah said: "I have never seen a thing nicer than the Messenger of Allâh . It seems as if the sunlight were moving within his face. I have never seen one who is faster in pace than the Messenger of Allâh . It seemed as if the earth had folded itself up to shorten the distance for him. For we used to wear ourselves out while he was at full ease."

Ka‘b bin Malik said: "When he was pleased, his face would shine with so bright light that you would believe that it was a moon-piece." Once he sweated hot at ‘Aishah’s, and the features of his face twinkled; so I recited a poem by Abu Kabeer Al-Hudhali: "If you watch his face-features, you will see them twinkling like the lightning of an approaching rain."

Whenever Abu Bakr saw him he would say: "He is faithful, chosen (by Allâh), and calls for forgiveness. He shines like a full-moon light when it is far from dark (clouds)."

‘Umar used to recite verses by Zuhair describing Haram bin Sinan: "Were you other than a human being, you would be a lighted moon at a full-moon night."

Then he would add: "Thus was the Messenger of Allâh . When he got angry his face would go so red that you would think it were "an inflected red skin-spot with pomegranate grains on both cheeks."

Jabir bin Samurah said: "His legs were gentle, delicate and in conformity. His laughter is no more than smiling. Looking at him will make you say ‘He is black-eyed though he is not so.’"

Ibn Al-‘Abbas said: "His two front teeth were splitted so whenever he speaks, light goes through them. His neck was as pure and silvery as a neck of doll. His eyelids were long haired but his beard was thick. His forehead was broad; but his eyebrows were like the metal piece attached to a lance, but they were unhorned. His nose was high-tipped, middle-cambered with narrow nostrils. His cheeks were plain, but he had (little hair) running down like a rod from his throat to his navel. He had hair neither on his abdomen nor on his chest except some on his arms and shoulders. His chest was broad and flatted. He had long forearms with expansive palms of the hand. His legs were plain straight and stretching down. His other limbs were straight too. The two hollows of his soles hardly touch the ground. When he walks away he vanishes soon; but he walks at ease (when he is not in a hurry). The way he walks seems similar to one who is leaning forwards and is about to fall down."

Anas said: "I have never touched silk or a silky garment softer than the palm of the Prophet’s; nor have I smelt a perfume or any scent nicer than his." In another version, "I have never smelt ambergris nor musk nor any other thing sweeter than the scent and the smell of the Messenger of Allâh ."

Abu Juhaifa said: "I took his hand and put it on my head and I found that it was colder than ice and better scented than the musk perfume."

Jabir bin Samurah — who was a little child then — said: "When he wiped my cheek, I felt it was cold and scented as if it had been taken out of a shop of a perfume workshop."

Anas said, "His sweat was pearl-like." Umm Sulaim said: "His sweat smelt nicer than the nicest perfume."

Jabir said: "Whoever pursues a road that has been trodden by the Messenger of Allâh , will certainly scent his smell and will be quite sure that the Messenger of Allâh has already passed it." The Seal of Prophethood, which was similar in size to a pigeon’s egg, was between his shoulders on the left side having spots on it like moles.
The Perfection of Soul and Nobility:

The Prophet was noted for superb eloquence and fluency in Arabic. He was remarkable in position and rank. He was an accurate, unpretending straightforward speaker. He was well-versed in Arabic and quite familiar with the dialects and accents of every tribe. He spoke with his entertainers using their own accents and dialects. He mastered and was quite eloquent at both bedouin and town speech. So he had the strength and eloquence of bedouin language as well as the clarity and the decorated splendid speech of town. Above all, there was the assistance of Allâh embodied in the revealed verses of the Qur’ân.

His stamina, endurance and forgiveness — out of a commanding position — his patience and standing what he detested — these were all talents, attributes and qualities Allâh Himself had brought him on. Even wise men have their flaws, but the Messenger of Allâh , unlike everybody, the more he was hurt or injured, the more clement and patient he became. The more insolence an ignorant anybody exercised against him the more enduring he became.

‘Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allâh , whenever he is given the opportunity to choose between two affairs, he always chooses the easiest and the most convenient. But if he is certain that it is sinful, he will be as far as he could from it. He has never avenged himself; but when the sanctity of Allâh is violated he would. That would be for Allâh’s not for himself. He is the last one to get angry and the first to be satisfied. His hospitality and generosity were matchless. His gifts and endowments manifest a man who does not fear poverty."

Ibn‘Abbas said: "The Prophet was the most generous. He is usually most generous of all times in Ramadan, the times at which the angel Gabriel (AS) comes to see him. Gabriel used to visit him every night of Ramadan and review the Qur’ân with him. Verily the Messenger of Allâh is more generous at giving bounty or charity than the blowing wind."

Jabir said: "The Prophet would never deny anything he was asked for."

His courage, his succour and his might are distinguishable. He was the most courageous. He witnessed awkward and difficult times and stoodfast at them. More than once brave men and daring ones fled away leaving him alone; yet he stood with full composure facing the enemy without turning his back. All brave men must have experienced fleeing once or have been driven off the battlefield at a round at a time except the Prophet . ‘Ali said: "Whenever the fight grew fierce and the eyes of fighters went red, we used to resort to the Prophet for succour. He was always the closest to the enemy."

Anas said: "One night the people of Madeenah felt alarmed. People went out hurriedly towards the source of sound, but the Prophet had already gone ahead of them. He was on the horseback of Abu Talhah which had no saddle over it, and a sword was slung round his neck, and said to them: ‘There was nothing to be afraid for.’"

He was the most modest and the first one to cast his eyes down. Abu Sa‘îd Al-Khudri said: "He was shier than a virgin in her boudoir. When he hates a thing we read it on his face. He does not stare at anybody’s face. He always casts his eyes down. He looks at the ground more than he looks sky-wards. His utmost looks at people are glances. He is willingly and modestly obeyed by everybody. He would never name a person whom he had heard ill-news about — which he hated. Instead he would say: ‘Why do certain people do so....’"

Al-Farazdaq verse of poem fits him very much and the best one to be said of: "He casts his eyes modestly but the eyes of others are cast down due to his solemnity, and words issue out of his mouth only while he is smiling."

The Prophet is the most just, the most decent, the most truthful at speech, and the honestest of all. Those who have exchanged speech with him, and even his enemies, acknowledge his noble qualities. Even before the Prophethood he was nicknamed Al-Ameen (i.e. the truthful, the truthworthy). Even then — in Al-Jahiliyah — they used to turn to him for judgement and consultation. In a version by At-Tirmidhi, he says that ‘Ali had said that he had been told by Abu Jahl that he (Abu Jahl) said to the Messenger of Allâh : "We do not call you a liar; but we do not have faith in what you have brought."[] In His Book, Allâh, the Exalted, said about them: "It is not you that they deny, but it is the Verses (the Qur’ân) of Allâh that the Zalimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) deny." [6:33]

Even when Heraclius asked Abu Sufyan: "Have you ever accused him of lying before the ministry of Prophethood?" Abu Sufyan said: "No."

He was most modest and far from being arrogant or proud. He forbade people to stand up at his presence as other people usually do for their kings.

Visiting the poor, the needy and entertaining them are some of his habits. If a slave invited him, he would accept the invitation. He always sat among his friends as if he were an ordinary person of them. ‘Aishah said that he used to repair his shoes, sew or mend his dress and to do what ordinary men did in their houses. After all, he was a human being like others. He used to check his dress (lest it has some insects on). Milking the she-sheep and catering for himself were some of his normal jobs. The Prophet was the most truthful to his pledges, and it is one of his qualities to establish good and steady relationship with his relatives — ‘Silat-Ar-Rahim’. He is the most merciful, gentle and amiable to all people. His way of living is the simplest one. Ill-manners and indecency are two qualities completely alien to him. He was decent, and did not call anybody names. He was not the sort of person who cursed or made noise in the streets. He did not exchange offences with others. He pushed back an offence or an error by forgiveness and overlooking. Nobody was allowed to walk behind him (i.e. as a bodyguard). He did not feel himself superior to others not even to his slaves (men or women) as far as food or clothes were concerned.

Whoever served him should be served by him too. ‘Ugh’ (an utterance of complaint) is a word that had never been said by him to his servant; nor was his servant blamed for doing a thing or leaving it undone. Loving the poor and the needy and entertaining them or participating in their funerals were things the Prophet always observed. He never contempted or disgraced a poor man for his poverty. Once he was travelling with his Companions and when it was time to have food prepared, he asked them to slaughter a she-sheep. A man said: I will slaughter it, another one said: I will skin it out. A third said: I will cook it. So the Messenger of Allâh said: I will collect wood for fire. They said: "No. We will suffice you that work." "I know that you can do it for me, but I hate to be privileged. Allâh hates to see a slave of his privileged to others." So he went and collected fire-wood.

Let us have some of the description of Hind bin Abi Halah: "The Messenger of Allâh was continually sad, thinking perpetually. He had no rest (i.e. for long). He only spoke when it was necessary. He would remain silent for a long time and whenever he spoke, he would end his talk with his jawbone but not out of the corners of his mouth, i.e. (snobbishly). His speech was inclusive. He spoke inclusively and decisively. It was not excessive nor was it short of meaning. It was amiable. It was in no way hard discoroning. He glorified the bounty of Allâh; even if it were little. If he had no liking for someone’s food, he would neither praise nor criticize.

He was always in full control of his temper and he would never get seemed angry unless it was necessary. He never got angry for himself nor did he avenge himself. It was for Allâh’s sanctity and religion that he always seemed angry.

When he pointed at a thing he would do so with his full hand-palm, and he would turn it round to show surprise. If he were angry he would turn both his body and face aside. When he was pleased, he cast his eyes down. His laughter was mostly smiling. It was then that his teeth which were like hail-stones were revealed.

He never spoke unless it was something closely relevant to him. He confirmed the brotherhood relationship among his Companions; and thus he made them intimate and did not separate them or implant enmity among them. Those who were honourable with their peoples, were honoured and respected by him and were assigned rulers over their own peoples. His cheerfulness was never withdrawn at anyone’s face; even at those whom he warned his people from or those whom he himself was on the alert of. He visited friends and inquired about people’s affairs. He confirmed what was right and criticized the awful and tried to undermine it. He was moderate in all affairs. He was equal to others and was not privileged. He would never act heedlessly, lest the others should get heedless. Each situation was dealt with in its proper due.

Righteousness was his target; so he was never short of it nor indifferent to it. People who sat next to him were the best of their people and the best of them all were — for him — those who provided common consultations. For him, the greatest ones and the highest in ranks were the best at providing comfort and co-ordination and succour. Remembrance (of Allâh) was a thing he aimed at and established whenever he sat down or stands up. No certain position was assigned for him to sit on. He sits at the end of the group, seated next to the last sitter in the place. He ordered people to do the same. He entertained his participants in social gatherings alike so that the one addressed would think that there was no one honoured by the Prophet but himself. He whoever sat next to him or interrupted him in order to ask for his advice about an affair of his, would be the first to start the talk and the one to end it. The Prophet would listen to him patiently till he ended his speech. He never denied a request to anyone, if unapproachable, then few gratifying words would work, instead.

His magnanimity, broad mindedness his tolerance could embrace all people and entitled him to be regarded as father for them all. In justice, all of them were almost equal. Nobody was better than another except on the criterion of Allâh fearing. A favoured one, to him, was the most Allâh fearing. His assembly was a meeting of clemency, timidness, patience and honesty. Voices were not raised in rows or riots. Inviolable things were never violable. Fearing Allâh and worship were their means to sympathy and compassion. They used to esteem the old and have mercy on the young. They assisted the needy and entertained strangers.

The Messenger of Allâh was always cheerful, easy, pleasant-tempered and lenient. He was never rude or rough nor clamorous or indecent. He was neither a reproacher nor a praiser. He overlooked what he did not desire, yet you would never despair of him. Three qualities he disposed of: hypocrisy, excessiveness, and what was none of his concern. People did not fear him in three areas: — for they were not qualities or habits of his : He never disparaged, or reproached nor did he seek the defects or shortages of others. He only spoke things whose reward was Divinely desirable. When he spoke, his listeners would attentively listen casting down their heads. They only spoke when he was silent. They did not have disputes or arguments about who was to talk. He who talked in his presence would be listened to by everybody till he finished his talk. Their talk would be about the topic discussed or delivered by their first speaker. The Messenger of Allâh used to laugh at what they laughed at and admired what they used to admire. He would always show patience with a stranger’s harshness at talk. He used to say: "When you see a person seeking an object earnestly, assist him to get his need. And never ask for a reward except from the reward-Giver, i.e. Allâh."

Kharijah bin Zaid said: "The Prophet was the most honoured among the people with whom he sat. His limbs could hardly be seen. He was often silent and rarely talked when speech was not a necessity. He turned away from those whose speech was rude or impolite. His laughter was no more than a smile. His speech, which was decisive, it was neither excessive nor incomplete. Out of reverence and esteem and following the example of their Prophet , the Companions’ laughter at his presence was smiling, as well."

On the whole the Prophet was ornamented with peerless attributes of perfection. No wonder to be like that for he was brought up, educated and taught (the Qur’ân) by Allâh. He was even praised by Allâh: And verily, you (O Muhammad ) are on an exalted standard of character." [68:4]

Those were the attributes and qualities that the Prophet enjoyed which made the hearts of souls of the people close to him, draw near to him and love him. Those traits made him so popular that the restraint and enmity of his people grew less and they started to embrace Islam in large crowds.

This description is in fact no more than a rapid review or rather short brief lines of Muhammad’s aspects of full perfection. Trying to encompass the whole perfect picture of the Prophet . No one can ever claim to be possessed of full knowledge or complete mastery of the great attributes of the greatest man in this universe. No one can ever give this man, the top of perfection, his due description. He was a man who always sought Allâh’s light, to such an extent that he was wholly imbued with the Qur’ânic approach.

O Allâh! send your blessings (and the Holy Words of Yours) upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, as You have send blessings upon Ibrâhim and the family of Ibrâhim. You are worthy of all praise, All Glorious. O Allâh! bless Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as You have already blessed Ibrâhim and the family of Ibrâhim. You are worthy of all praise, All Glorious.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 09:24 by Hanan Taha @196.202.85.197 : Thanx Vibrani and Redco
Vibrani and Redco,
It was a civiliced conversation between you both. No insults,no kiddish stuff.Bravo!!
Vibrani, I'm a muslim woman who has GRADUATED from collage ( engineering studies) full of women and girls beside men and boys.
as Redco said, depriving women from education is a very very old arabic habit that has started to vanish due to the start to understand Islam between Arab as Islam encourages women and men to educate themselevs and be positive for their countries.
The Idea you got is from the media and the movies you see , but this is absolutely not true.
see these sites in English telling about the reality of Islam:
[link]
http://www.todayislam.com
[link]
http://www.thetruereligion.org
[link]
http://www.islamunveiled.org
[link]
http://www.lordswrds.com
[link]
http://www.islam-qa.com
[link]
http://www.prophetmuhammed.org
[link]
http://www.religionofislam.com/english/index.htm
[link]

and these are summarized pages from my personal site telling about Islam being disassociated from terrorism.
[link]

Peace be upon you good guy ^_^  



9 Feb 2006 @ 09:43 by vibrani : Hanan
thanks. No, the idea is not from any movies I've seen. It's from news, it's from friends, it's from real sources about what's going on.

Thanks for the links - I will check them out. I do see that your site is about trying to clear up the difference between peaceful Muslims, real Muslims, and terrorists who are not real Muslims. I do find something that bothers me - you separate real Jews from Zionism. For many Jews, the two are inseparable, and they are real Jews.

I'm sorry to disagree with something you said - there are two realities: the one you posted and the dangerous, disrespectful reality of Islam. I repeat what I've posted a few times already, that peaceful Muslims need to be in charge of Islam, not let the terrorists have the attention and the political power and say they represent Allah and Islam. (P.S. I'm a woman.)
[link]  



9 Feb 2006 @ 09:54 by vibrani : A question
may I ask why Muslims always say "peace be upon him" (is there ever a she?). Don't you trust your prophet, and God?  


9 Feb 2006 @ 10:03 by Hanan Taha @196.202.85.197 : Vibrani
Nice to meet an openminded woman like you Vibrani.
about Zionism...I don't know much about it , but I see many people convicting it and hence , convicting Jewdaism which is - I think- is inaproppriate.
You are totally right about being charge of islam..this is what I'm trying to do because those terrorists are psychics and are really embarrasing us.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 10:10 by Hanan Taha @196.202.85.197 : answer to Vibrani.
"may I ask why Muslims always say "peace be upon him" (is there ever a she?). Don't you trust your prophet, and God? "
Him refers to Mohammed (Peace be upon him ) as he is a man.
There is a lot of She's in Holy Quran.Besides, some times the holy Quran refers he to both males and females except for the situations that talks about only women.
Not only the Quran.You can see that in Scientific books talking about humans too.something like : the Homosebian is the last human species to exist as there were no decaying factors for HIM. see what I mean?
If you have any other misunderstandings you want to clear , please ask me.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 11:35 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : Judaism and Zionism
Vibrani, I envy you for the amount of time you are able to put into this. Anyway, I can't help but assert that Judaism and Zionism are very separate things:

Judaism is a religion that is thousands of years old while Zionism is a movement that started in 1897. Judaism is a religion while Zionism is a political movement. There are many Jews who are not Zionists. It seems to me that calling them inseparable excludes great too many people from the Jewish community.

Just for your information, the reason we separate Judaism from Zionism is because we must emphasize that our conflict with Israel is not religious but rather territorial. We have a problem with Zionism because it is the movement that terrorized our nations, occupied our lands, made millions of people into refugees, and brought in people from all over the world to occupy their place. Religion is not a factor in this conflict as far as we are concerned.

If the Zionist movement was a Christian or a Muslim movement, we would have responded to it the same way. You can call me anti Zionist but you can't call me anti Jewish as I am obligated by my religion to respect the Jewish faith.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 11:40 by Hanan Taha @196.202.85.197 : Mohd. Kanaan
Mohammed Kanaan...Thank you.
You are a model of a civilized , educated and diplomatic muslim.
peace be upon u  



9 Feb 2006 @ 14:44 by vibrani : hahaha
Mohammad, I know Judaism AND Zionism! And for most Jews, even though they are technically two different things, they go hand in hand. Especially for Israelis, especially for Holocaust survivors. Especially because Jews know Israel is the ONLY place on Earth where Jews are assured safety and to be Jews without fear of persecution. Maybe you have a problem with Israel, I don't. Israel is the ancient homeland of Israel. Even though there was a movement underway from the late 1800s through Herzl to reobtain Israel because there was anti-Semitism in Europe, Russia, Muslim/Arab nations, Israel was given to the Jews after the Holocaust to ensure they will never be faced with extermination again. This was voted on by the U.N., AFTER the Arabs were offered the land and refused it. The Jews purchased the land, fair and square. It's a legitimate nation and has a right to exist. Did you forgot about the Vatican? It is a Catholic nation, and the richest nation in the world.

Hanan, I don't know what you mean by convicting Judaism. Is that the same thing as a Muslim being a Muslim?  



9 Feb 2006 @ 14:47 by vibrani : This stuff doesn't stop
USTARZAI, Pakistan — A homicide bombing ripped through a Shiite procession Thursday in northwestern Pakistan, sparking riots during the Muslim sect's most important holiday. At least 22 people were killed and dozens injured, officials said.

The bomb targeted hundreds of people in a bazaar soon after they emerged from the main Shiite mosque in the town of Hangu, district police chief Ayub Khan said.

The Shiites responded by burning shops and cars while clashing with police in the town, located about 125 miles southwest of the capital, Islamabad, Khan said. Army troops moved in to restore order and a curfew was imposed, he said.

An explosion in Turkey's largest city, Istanbul, has injured 14 people, police say.

These things don't have to do with cartoons, nor Israel or Jews. It is about Muslims killing Muslims.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 17:02 by Shawn @66.192.117.66 : Flags
I need to buy some stock in flag making companies. With all the burning of flags around the world, business must be booming!!  


9 Feb 2006 @ 17:13 by Redco @62.114.93.96 : hello again
i am happy to see that we are talking and having a good civilaized converstation. anyway and sorry vibrani i didn't know you are a woman i told you Mr. Vibrani before so sorry for that , back to the orginal topic then , as i said before and Hanan said about it freedom of a women in work , education and lot of many things , and there are alot of TV Shows news and many things not to tell all just to tell the un educated some , because the others are majority and already know it and do it , once again i would like to say vibrani , you can't say that " Muslims Killing Muslims " because i told you KILLING ain't accepted in Islam so for simply to say whom those people are killing are doing it for their own profit not for anything , they don't do anything with Islam rules and it is against it , we can't even say that they are Muslims doing that because they go against ISLAM , they aren't real Muslims doing these bad things nor Jews nor Christians , because i believe in all kind and all religons whatever it is , never accept such things and since all religons are for One God , then i don't think we can say that Same Religon People kill each other , because killing is against any rules in all religons

for example in WWI,WWII and Hitler , some of them where killing each other same religons , and different religons , but may i ask for what ?? for lands , for own personal profit , for acquiring power , is it just too easy to kill people just to gain power ?? anyway we can't even say in this situation that Christians kill Christians , or Christians Kill Jews , or any religon people kill anyone
because simply who go killing like this can't be related to his(her) religons
, we can't call them they have a religon because they already went against it + it is about a group of people , + once those people start to kill against religons laws then i don't think we can say that they are from any religon or related to it , we can just say that they are "" Own Personal Profit People Sick Minded Ignoring Thier Religon Laws Whatever Thier Religons Are ""

thanks and see ya later  



9 Feb 2006 @ 17:54 by vibrani : Redco
It doesn't matter what your Islam tells you, the fact is that Muslims are murdering people on a daily basis in the name of Islam. That is what has become Islam for a great majority of people, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, then do something about it. It's the Islam that the world sees and that speaks for all of you at the moment.  


9 Feb 2006 @ 18:35 by Hanan Taha @196.202.91.165 : Redco & Vibrani
God !! Those people killing for the name of Islam are like a disease..and thanks God they are only in Pakistan,Iraq and Afghanistan...other nations are free from this nonsense and if killing exists,it will be for murder purpose like Redco said , for money and power.
Mohammed Peace be upon said : The one who kills a muslims on purpose is as if he has killed people of the whole world.
Allah also said in Holy Quran that who kills a muslim on purpose will be cursed by God and be tortured severly in Hell .
So those people killing each other are cursed by Allah ( GOD) and prophet Mohammed peace be upon him and very despiced by other good muslims.
We hate Bin Laden and his fellows as much as you do.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 18:57 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : To Hanan Taha
Yes and this disase is spreading rapidly. Why is it that we in the west have to hunt them down for you, when are YOU people going to take care of them...  


9 Feb 2006 @ 19:35 by Daryl @138.162.140.45 : hanan taha
Why are there no protests about the Shiite procession in Pakistan attacked; 27 dead?
Where's the outrage from the Muslim world here? Why are people going crazy over cartoons when there are poeple being murdered in the Muslim world. I must agree with "A Dane". You need to police yourselves before anything else.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 19:54 by Daryl @138.162.140.45 : to hanan taha
umm.... I felt like I needed to correct your statement. Those are not the only countries that have experienced islamic terrorism. I compiled a short list that starts with:
Russia, Chechnya, Spain, Britain, Indonesia, Phillipines, Sudan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Turkey(nov '03), Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, and India to name only a few. It seems to me that this "disease" has spread wherever Islam has spread.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 21:12 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : Zionism again

Vibrani, I am sure you really believe that Zionists purchased the land they colonized. I am sure this is what is taught in your schools in Israel. Unfortunately, reality is very different. My father in law was forced out of Jerusalem in 1948. He has not received any real estate checks. I am sure the 2+ million Palestinians who were made into refugees didn't get checks either; otherwise, they would have afforded a better shelter. This land was given to the Zionists by the British occupation forces. Palestinians were terrorized to leave. I am sorry but this reality is impossible for anybody to deny.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 22:07 by DORLEMIN @85.101.96.46 : try to understand
I red all the comments presented here and now I want to highlight some points.

Religion is not a funny thing to do, it does not need to be. It does not have to enjoy us. So do not try to shape , revise and restructure the religion according to your preferences. It has rules for us, you can chose to do or not to do. But you can not deny the rules. All the three religions have most in common, so try to see the common things instead of differentiating. And if you really try to understand the religions other than yours, you will start to respect them also. For example if someone knew that Islam fought against a Arabic pagan nation at the first years. In Islam it is the biggest sin to figure any of the holy names, the things would be different now. It is the biggest sin to think God by looking at a statue of a holy prophet made of stone instead of looking at stone itself which is really a work of God (not human). But people always create symbols to remind them the most important things in life. Religion should not be reminded by symbols or figures. Cause time by time the symbols and the figures become the religion itself. When you look at a figure you only see how successful the artist is, and religion becomes the art. We do not need to see how the prophets look like at past, we just need to understand what was going on at those times.
I know it becomes silly at first, but when you start to think in deed it will become more logical. At least know that Islam is the last religion. So stop criticizing this religion and start to learn more and discuss it. Islam never criticizes Christianity and the Judaism cause it itself proves that these are the holy religions.

Please just understand that Muslims need to be understood by you and need to see their religion is respected. So give them what they want, only an apology.

To see the case from another point of view:
When you live problem with a company you blame the company itself not only the staff who is responsible. Cause it should be the company rules, principles and audit system which should not led the staff to make a mistake.
Please consider here what an apology means.  



9 Feb 2006 @ 22:54 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : apology
see link.

http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid%3D3527646  



9 Feb 2006 @ 23:35 by vibrani : Kanaan
I don't agree with what you wrote. Check YOUR facts. The Palestinians were never terrorized by Israel to leave! They left because of what the Arabs told them. More Arab lies. You don't know much and if your family didn't get paid, maybe your family screwed up, or chose to leave it all? The day Israel became a nation 5 MUSLIM/ARAB NATIONS ATTACKED IT, and it survived. Yeah, right, Israel terrorized Palestinians out. Bullshit. There are still Arabs living and working in Israel, and they prefer it over the crap in Palestinian controlled land.  


10 Feb 2006 @ 00:00 by jesus lover @130.179.165.130 : danes
how would u like a cartoon of jesus getting fucked up the ass while nailed to the cross at the same time , and upside down . do u think that would be funny . i would love to see that , or do u prefer a pic of a nazzi burning a couple a' other jews in a big fuckin oven and masturbating at the scenary . would be nice .. one more thing , vibrani u can suck on a big fat dick and daryl ull get ure turn boy.  


10 Feb 2006 @ 00:04 by vibrani : Thanks, Jesus freak
have a great day :-) Wonder why when those cartoons were first published in an Egyptian paper last Fall, NO ONE SAID SHIT?!



How do you know this is Jesus? Maybe it's James, or Joseph, or Bruce?

Jesus lived and died as a Jew, he was never a Christian! Christianity is a human fabrication.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 00:23 by Some French Dude @82.123.31.151 : ...offensive
Wow Vibrani, as a Christian, I'm very offended by your post ! :o

I think I'm going to throw a tantrum, scream and kick, riot, burn stuff down, send you death threats, maybe even kill myself...(jk ;) )  



10 Feb 2006 @ 00:45 by vibrani : *
I wish we had the delete function in here - ming.  


10 Feb 2006 @ 00:46 by vibrani : LOL French Dude
ooo I'm so scared! heehee Thanks for understanding my point :p  


10 Feb 2006 @ 03:02 by vibrani : EVERYONE IS AFRAID TO CRITICIZE ISLAM
SPIEGEL INTERVIEW WITH AYAAN HIRSI ALI

'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam'

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe. Auf Wiedersehen, free speech.

SPIEGEL: Hirsi Ali, you have called the Prophet Muhammad a tyrant and a pervert. Theo van Gogh, the director of your film "Submission," which is critical of Islam, was murdered by Islamists. You yourself are under police protection. Can you understand how the Danish cartoonists feel at this point?

"The cartoons should be displayed everywhere."

Hirsi Ali: They probably feel numb. On the one hand, a voice in their heads is encouraging them not to sell out their freedom of speech. At the same time, they're experiencing the shocking sensation of what it's like to lose your own personal freedom. One mustn't forget that they're part of the postwar generation, and that all they've experienced is peace and prosperity. And now they suddenly have to fight for their own human rights once again.

SPIEGEL: Why have the protests escalated to such an extent?

Hirsi Ali: There is no freedom of speech in those Arab countries where the demonstrations and public outrage are being staged. The reason many people flee to Europe from these places is precisely because they have criticized religion, the political establishment and society. Totalitarian Islamic regimes are in a deep crisis. Globalization means that they're exposed to considerable change, and they also fear the reformist forces developing among émigrés in the West. They'll use threatening gestures against the West, and the success they achieve with their threats, to intimidate these people.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one of the most sharp- tongued critics of political Islam - - and a target of radical fanatics. Her provocative film "Submission" led to the assassination of director Theo van Gogh in November 2004. The attackers left a death threat against Hirsi Ali stuck to his corpse with a knife. After a brief period in hiding, the 36- year- old member of Dutch parliament from the neo- liberal VVD party has returned to parliament and is continuing her fight against Islamism. She recently published a book, "I Accuse," and is working on a sequel to "Submission."

Hirsi Ali was born in Somalia where she experienced the oppression of Muslim women first hand. When her father attempted to force her into an arranged marriage, she fled to Holland in 1992. Later, she renounced the Muslim religion. more...

SPIEGEL: Was apologizing for the cartoons the wrong thing to do?

Hirsi Ali: Once again, the West pursued the principle of turning first one cheek, then the other. In fact, it's already a tradition. In 1980, privately owned British broadcaster ITV aired a documentary about the stoning of a Saudi Arabian princess who had allegedly committed adultery. The government in Riyadh intervened and the British government issued an apology. We saw the same kowtowing response in 1987 when (Dutch comedian) Rudi Carrell derided (Iranian revolutionary leader) Ayatollah Khomeini in a comedy skit (that was aired on German television). In 2000, a play about the youngest wife of the Prophet Mohammed, titled "Aisha," was cancelled before it ever opened in Rotterdam. Then there was the van Gogh murder and now the cartoons. We are constantly apologizing, and we don't notice how much abuse we're taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn't give an inch.

SPIEGEL: What should the appropriate European response look like?

Hirsi Ali: There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere. After all, the Arabs can't boycott goods from every country. They're far too dependent on imports. And Scandinavian companies should be compensated for their losses. Freedom of speech should at least be worth that much to us.

SPIEGEL: But Muslims, like any religious community, should also be able to protect themselves against slander and insult.

Hirsi Ali: That's exactly the reflex I was just talking about: offering the other cheek. Not a day passes, in Europe and elsewhere, when radical imams aren't preaching hatred in their mosques. They call Jews and Christians inferior, and we say they're just exercising their freedom of speech. When will the Europeans realize that the Islamists don't allow their critics the same right? After the West prostrates itself, they'll be more than happy to say that Allah has made the infidels spineless.

SPIEGEL: What will be the upshot of the storm of protests against the cartoons?

Hirsi Ali: We could see the same thing happening that has happened in the Netherlands, where writers, journalists and artists have felt intimidated ever since the van Gogh murder. Everyone is afraid to criticize Islam. Significantly, "Submission" still isn't being shown in theaters.

SPIEGEL: Many have criticized the film as being too radical and too offensive.

Hirsi Ali: The criticism of van Gogh was legitimate. But when someone has to die for his world view, what he may have done wrong is no longer the issue. That's when we have to stand up for our basic rights. Otherwise we are just reinforcing the killer and conceding that there was a good reason to kill this person.

SPIEGEL: You too have been accused for your dogged criticism of Islam.

Hirsi Ali: Oddly enough, my critics never specify how far I can go. How can you address problems if you're not even allowed to clearly define them? Like the fact that Muslim women at home are kept locked up, are raped and are married off against their will -- and that in a country in which our far too passive intellectuals are so proud of their freedom!

SPIEGEL: The debate over speaking Dutch on the streets and the integration programs for potentially violent Moroccan youth -- do these things also represent the fruits of your provocations?

Hirsi Ali: The sharp criticism has finally triggered an open debate over our relationship with Muslim immigrants. We have become more conscious of things. For example, we are now classifying honor killings by the victims' countries of origin. And we're finally turning our attention to young girls who are sent against their wills from Morocco to Holland as brides, and adopting legislation to make this practice more difficult.

SPIEGEL: You're working on a sequel to "Submission." Will you stick to your uncompromising approach?

The Cartoon Jihad: Did European newspapers make the right decision by reprinting controversial Danish caricatures that disparagingly depicted the Prophet Muhammad?

Hirsi Ali: Yes, of course. We want to continue the debate over the Koran's claim to absoluteness, the infallibility of the Prophet and sexual morality. In the first part, we portrayed a woman who speaks to her god, complaining that despite the fact that she has abided by his rules and subjugated herself, she is still being abused by her uncle. The second part deals with the dilemma into which the Muslim faith plunges four different men. One hates Jews, the second one is gay, the third is a bon vivant who wants to be a good Muslim but repeatedly succumbs to life's temptations, and the fourth is a martyr. They all feel abandoned by their god and decide to stop worshipping him.

SPIEGEL: Will recent events make it more difficult to screen the film?

Hirsi Ali: The conditions couldn't be more difficult. We're forced to produce the film under complete anonymity. Everyone involved in the film, from actors to technicians, will be unrecognizable. But we are determined to complete the project. The director didn't really like van Gogh, but he believes that, for the sake of free speech, shooting the sequel is critical. I'm optimistic that we'll be able to premier the film this year.

SPIEGEL: Is the Koran's claim to absoluteness, which you criticize in "Submission," the central obstacle to reforming Islam?

Hirsi Ali: The doctrine stating that the faith is inalterable because the Koran was dictated by God must be replaced. Muslims must realize that it was human beings who wrote the holy scriptures. After all, most Christians don't believe in hell, in the angels or in the earth having been created in six days. They now see these things as symbolic stories, but they still remain true to their faith.

INTERVIEW: GERALD TRAUFETTER
[link],1518,399263,00.html
Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan  



10 Feb 2006 @ 03:05 by Prophet Muhammad @203.76.50.21 : Arabs are pretend Muslims
I don't want to be deified. So-called-Muslim Arabs are deifying me. I am only the messenger and Allah can do for me lots more than any stinking mullah can.

Here's the reason why.

Shining a psychological spotlight on a few of the insanities of life


SHAME, THE ARAB PSYCHE, AND ISLAM

[link]

General Comments about Shame

Shame is often an underappreciated psychological state. Particularly in the modern world, but also throughout history, shame-- in limited quantities and small doses--has facilitated civilized conduct and made both individuals and cultures behave more appropriately. But healthy shame, on the other hand, keeps us in touch with reality, and reminds us of our limitations, faults, and humanity. When experiencing healthy shame an individual may not be very happy to have embarrassing weaknesses and defects made obvious, but this awareness is insightful and humbling. As long as an individual is capable of self-doubt and self-reflection about his behavior; he is able to remain open-minded and willing to search for a better understanding of himself and others.

Excessive or inappropriate shame is another thing altogether, communicating forcibly to the individual that he or she is worthless. Shame can be an exceedingly devastating and painful experience

Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings and shame within; and to externalize blame onto others. Projection and paranoia, which are both external assignments of blame, are psychological defenses against shame.

Often this excessive shame is dealt with by humiliating someone perceived as weaker or more worthless than the shamed person (e.g., the family pet, women, Gays, or outside groups serve this function for both individuals and cultures).

Guilt is an emotion that rises after a transgression of one's own or cultural values. Guilt is about actions or behavior; while shame is about the self. There is an important psychological difference in saying to someone that their behavior is bad; as contrasted with saying that they are bad. The former leads to guilt; the latter to shame.

The purpose of guilt is to stop behavior that violates a self, family or societal standard. Guilt keeps score on excesses or deficits of behavior deemed undesirable and is expressed in regret and remorse.

Eventually for the shame-avoidant person, reality itself must be distorted in order to further protect the self from poor self-esteem. Blaming other individuals or groups for one's own behavior becomes second nature, and this transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.

Most psychological theorists (Erikson, Freud, Kohut) see shame as a more “primitive” emotion (since it impacts one’s basic sense of self) compared to guilt, which is developed later in the maturation of the self. Without the development of guilt there is no development of a real social conscience.

Guilt Cultures vs. Shame Cultures

In thinking about how the concepts of guilt and shame apply in a culture, it is helpful to refer to a seminal work that was originally published by Benedict in 1946, where she discussed the collectivist culture of Japan during WWII and distinguished it from American culture. Japan had a “shame culture”, while the U.S. and most of the West subscribe to a “guilt culture”. Each type of culture has its own set of rules with regard to wrong-doing and they are determined by the beliefs of the individual and other people regarding guilt, and summarized in the two matrix tables below:

In both cultures there is no problem if both parties believe that the individual is NOT GUILTY. If both parties believe that the individual is GUILTY, again there is agreement and in that case the guilt is punished.

The difference in the two societies lies in the other two boxes in the matrix (in red).

In a guilt culture, when an individual believes he is NOT GUILTY, he will defend his innocence aggressively despite the fact that others believe he is guilty. In this case, the individual self is strong and able to maintain an independent judgement even if every other person is convinced of his guilt. The self is able to stand alone and fight for truth, secure in the knowledge that the individual is innocent.

The guilt culture is typically and primarily concerned with truth, justice, and the preservation of individual rights. As we noted earlier, the emotion of guilt is what keeps a person from behavior that goes against his/her own code of conduct as well as the culture’s. Excessive guilt can, of course, also be pathological. I am solely referring to a psychologically healthy appreciation of guilt.

In contrast, a typical shame culture (e.g., Japan as discussed by Benedict; or the present focus of this discussion: Arab/Islamic culture) what other people believe has a far more powerful impact on behavior than even what the individual believes. As noted by Gutman in his writings, the desire to preserve honor and avoid shame to the exclusion of all else is one of the primary foundations of the culture. This desire has the side-effect of giving the individual carte blanche to engage in wrong-doing as long as no-one knows about it, or knows he is involved.

Additionally, it may be impossible for an individual to even admit to himself that he is guilty (even when he is) particularly when everyone else considers him to be guilty because of the shame involved. As long as others remain convinced he is innocent, the individuals does not experience either guilt or shame. A great deal of effort therefore goes into making sure that others are convinced of your innocence (even if you are guilty).

In general, it has been noted that the shame culture works best within a collectivist society, although it can exist in pockets even within a predominant guilt culture.

Let us now turn to Arab/Islamic culture.

This piece by David Gutmann is one of the best psychological analyses of shame and the Arab psyche I have read, and because it deals with something so critically important, I am going to quote a rather large excerpt:

The Arab world is suffering a crisis of humiliation. Their armies are routed not only by Americans, but also by tiny, Jewish Israel; and as Arthur Koestler once remarked, the Arab world has not, in the last 500 years or so, produced much besides rugs, dirty postcards, elaborations on the belly-dance esthetic (and, of course, some innovative terrorist practices). They have no science to speak of, no art, hardly any industry save oil, very little literature, and portentous music which consists largely of lugubrious songs celebrating the slaughter of Jews.

Now that the Arabs have acquired national consciousness, and they compare their societies to other nations, these deficiencies become painfully evident, particularly to the upper-class Arab kids who attend foreign universities. There they learn about the accomplishments of Christians, Jews, (Freud, Einstein, for starters) and women. And yet, with the exception of Edward Said, there is scarcely a contemporary Arab name in the bunch. No wonder, then, that major recruitment to al-Qaeda's ranks takes place among Arab university students. And no wonder that suicide bombing becomes their tactic of choice: it is a last-ditch, desperate way of asserting at least one scrap of superiority—a spiritual superiority—over the materialistic, life-hugging, and ergo shameful West.

For the rest please click on [link]  



10 Feb 2006 @ 03:37 by vibrani : Yup
As I posted in another page of this blog: I think Muslims who live outside of the western free world are deprived of so much. With so much suppression of and control over a natural, normal free spirit, how can people not be messed up? Every step is planned for them, everything is rigid, stubborn, no flexibility. Those that believe that way with all of their hearts can't hear another viewpoint. And those that are still in touch with their souls probably go through hell with inner conflicts. There is NO WAY that I, as a woman and a mother, would ever put my children through what Muslim women demand of their children. That is akin to torture, slavery, murder, the worst degradation of a human being, and the worst kind of disrespect for God.

The Arabs don't have much else going for them.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 05:48 by HUSSEIN @62.135.24.206 : to daniel
5 Feb 2006 @ 19:15 by daniel @80.88.153.206 : CAN ANYONE ANSWER THIS QUESTION!
I need an answer to this urgent Q: In a western country any man is free to change his religion, i.e a christian or bhuddist can become a muslim, what manner of death then does the Quoran prescribe for you (a muslim) if u chose to become a Christian?

thnx sir for this question i'm muslim and all muslims can change their religion to any other one without talking about death sir if a muslim want to be christian it's better to us sir cause if he hate islam he isn't gonna be a good muslim and if he did somthing bad anyone will say that's because he is muslim, so to be not muslim in our religion better than being a muslim whom hate islam.. one of islam principle sir is not to hate anyone or anything so how can u be a muslim while u dn't like it and want to change it..  



10 Feb 2006 @ 06:00 by HUSSEIN @62.135.24.206 : to daniel
can u answer those questions sir why in egypt and most of arabic countries the christians can't change their religions to islam, what will happen to him from the church and the christian people if he did ?????????  


10 Feb 2006 @ 06:22 by omar @195.229.242.52 : civilisation gap
if i say that what hitler did to the jews was really funny and they really deserved it...would u consider that a freedom of speach or would you consider it an offense against the 15 million jews worldwide ? now we're having more than 1 billion human being saying that what happened is offensive...freedom of speach has limits, and these limits are determined by whoever is mentioned..for a muslim like me, my relegion and my prophet and GOD are behind the red line of any freedom of speach..should u accept that u will be respecting these 1 billion, if not , then bear the consequences. its not our problem if the denish and their neighbors have no beleifs and are atheiests...yoohoo YOU'RE NOT LIVING ALONE IN THIS WORLD !!!  


10 Feb 2006 @ 06:40 by vibrani : Neither are Muslims
get it?  


10 Feb 2006 @ 07:19 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : Mothers

Vibrani:
My mother raised 5 kids. She used to wake up before dawn to bake, cook, prepare our lunch boxes and send us to school. She also worked as a fulltime teacher. She literally burnt herself to give us the love,care, and the nurture we needed. Today, she has 2 sons and 2 daughters as medical doctors; the 5th holds a masters degree in computers. For God's sake, by what standard do you consider yourself to be a better mother?

I am sorry but you are playing on a lot of stereotypes that are based on recycled lies. Until you give those up, we will never be able to like each other.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 08:18 by Hossein @217.219.190.4 : Down With Denmark
Just,I Can Say , FUCK YOU .  


10 Feb 2006 @ 09:29 by Another Danish Guy @80.164.65.4 : funny
as i mentioned earlyer alot of muslims here don´t want to be part of our country they come here to change it i been discussing this subject with alot of muslims that are integrated in the Denmark and live as a muslim in Denmark but understand our country and respect it, they are way more harsh aganinst the muslims living here in ghettos (witch a large part is) they simply told me they are sad that Denmark made them citizens of Denmark, they think they should go home.  


10 Feb 2006 @ 09:31 by vibrani : Kanaan
Isn't that great, you had a burnt out mother who did everything for everybody else but herself! Of course mothers love and care for their kids and want the best for them, but if they are sacrificing everything and do nothing for themselves, they're sick. That's a fact, and not a stereotype. It's psychologically sick, it's a martyr complex - typical of Muslims, and other cultures that do not value women or teach women to value themselves. It's great you guys turned out the way you did, but how can you praise your mother for burning out? But how about your sisters? Are they also martyrs? Do they do anything for themselves for fun? Do they have time to themselves? Where was your father? If he was alive and with you, couldn't he help make the lunches and breakfasts and work hard to support you, too?

I'm not saying I'm a "better" mother, I don't know your mother (but if she's burnt out, something's not right there), but when a mother is healthy and happy, has time to nurture herself, too, she is a better mother and her family is happier.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 09:41 by johhnyboy @64.136.26.235 : hossein
and down with hossein. fuck you too bitch. down with islam and down with islamic countries.  


10 Feb 2006 @ 10:11 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : hossein
now don't be talking about my danish friends like that you towelhead. friends of the usa they are boy. why don't you comeon down to little ol' crowley, TEXAS and see what a redneck thinks about your opinions. your probably to scared to huh boy? bring the quran with you, because the word of allah is the only thing that will protect you from a royal ass southern ass whippin'. i'll do it with my fists, not a gun. but that's only if you piss me off. like i said boy, i live in crowley texas. it's a small world, so you could probably find me. and long live and praise to american, danish, british, polish, etc. troops in iraq making that once god forsaken shit pit into a real western style democracy. bring those poor citizens into the 21st century it would. well hossein , how about it? you coming to my little ol' southern town. it might widen your narrow little islamic horizons to see how REAL americans think about your ideas. but maybe your just pissed off cause you can't let other people have their opinions. no matter how offensive it might seem to your religion. your holy book says that the whole world will be islamic. my holy book says that all knees will bow to Jesus. All knees will bow. Mine and yours included... Vaya con dios mi amigo, see ya when I see ya  


10 Feb 2006 @ 13:00 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : Family values

Vibrani, just a moment ago you were saying that Arab mothers put their children through ""torture, slavery, murder, the worst degradation of a human being"". Suddenly Arab mothers became ""sacrificing everything and do nothing for themselves"". Make up your mind hun. Which one should we believe??

Just for your benefit, my mom lived a very happy life with a loving husband and children. Actualy my father was equally loving and commited. He earned a good living, buoght the groceries, helped with the kitchen, taught and helped us with homework. Now that we are older, we give our parents back all the love and care we are able to give. If this is a model of a sick family in your view then be it. We call it the spirit of giving. It is something that your hate filled heart will never understand.

Cheers  



10 Feb 2006 @ 14:30 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.28 : Muslim women
I didn't expect that your mind , Vibrani, will twist that way,but Thanks God my mother and father are exactly like Kanaan's , besides,they give me the freedom,as a girl, to travel here and there and educate myself and THEY KEEP SPENDING MONEY ON ME UNTIL I GET MARRIED which is not common in western countries separating their daughters from their life and financial responsibilities when she gets 16 and helping her not to reach 20's while she is still virgin as it is considered as a shame.
Here in Egypt,everything is moderate.Parents don't suppress their daughetrs and in the other hand,they keep her safe and virgin until she gets married.
I don't see anything twisted or criminal in that.

pure love between both sexes also exists and if it is healthy ( without pre_marriage sex)it will soon end to engagement then marriage.

Why you keep thinking that Muslim women are some slaves being covered all with black? For me, I've never wore that black u talk about,but I wear descent stylish Hijab ( Scarf).

As an answer to Hussain question,Why are some christians in Egypt who want to convert to Islam are afraid to tell their families?
The answer is , because the church and the family tortures any one who enters Islam to death.This is a crime to them.while the opposite ( when muslim converts to christianity) does not exist.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 15:27 by Some French Dude @82.123.16.170 : ... I convert !
"Here in Egypt,everything is moderate.Parents don't suppress their daughetrs and in the other hand,they keep her safe and virgin until she gets married." [...] "pure love between both sexes also exists and if it is healthy ( without pre_marriage sex)it will soon end to engagement then marriage." [...] "church and the family tortures any one who enters Islam to death"

That sounds so cool to be female in a muslim country like Egypt !... I think I'm going to undergo a gender changing surgical procedure and emigrate there to convert to Islam... will you be tolerant enough to accept me and protect me from the evil Christians who will no doubt try to torture me to death after all this ?

:)  



10 Feb 2006 @ 16:35 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : to Hanan Taha
please see link:

[link]  



10 Feb 2006 @ 16:37 by Daryl @138.162.140.45 : to hanan taha
This is what I picked up off a website called persecution.org
I'm sorry but Christianity is persecuted in Egypt, one of the more moderate of the Muslim countries. It is not "ok" for Muslims to convert to Christianity. Don't sugercoat it Hanan.

Among the vilest offenders of persecution of Christians include China, Vietnam, Laos, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan and Sudan. Ironically, despite persecution, Christian leaders in these countries are reporting a growing number of people converting to Christianity. In a recent trip to the Middle East, I listened to many reports from pastors and evangelists claiming that there has been a surge in the number of Christian converts. One Christian radio broadcaster told me that last year alone they had received over 60,000 requests for Bibles and other Christian materials. All the requests were from Muslim countries.
Egypt, a Prime Example
Now is the time to act. Violence against Christians is on the increase. In Egypt, on February 12, 1997, thirteen young people ages 13 to 16 were brutally slain. Militant Muslims fired upon 50 youth as they attended a Bible study in a church in Abu Qurqas in Upper Egypt. I spoke with an Egyptian pastor from the region. He said that the entire Christian community is in shock following what has been described as the bloodiest attack against a church in many years. A second violent attack occurred on March 13. In a hail of gunfire, Islamic militants wielding assault weapons killed another 13 people in a mostly Christian village 300 miles south of Cairo. Nine of the slain were Coptic Christians.

The Egyptian government did not start cracking down on Islamic militants until tourists became targets. Attacks against Egyptian Christians could be tolerated, but the government would not tolerate attacks against tourists. Tourism is a lucrative industry for Egypt. During my visit to Egypt, I observed the increased protection that was being provided to tourists. Police guards were posted at every popular tourist hotel and police presence was highly visible at the Cairo airport. Nevertheless, Christians, especially outside Cairo, are afforded little or no protection at all.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 20:11 by vibrani : There are so many answers
we can talk for years on all of these topics....let's also mention the tourists who have been tortured and murdered in Egypt.

The information was offered the info that a person has a burnt-out mother from all the work she did raising your family. What did she ever do to take care of herself? At least a couple of you have a little more freedom than your mothers probably had. This is not limited to Arab or Muslim nations, although they and Mormans are probably the most extreme when it comes to controlling girls and women.

Keeping a girl a virgin - isn't that controlling a woman's body? What if the woman WANTS to have sex before marriage? Isn't that her business?

Just to clear up some errors, I didn't say all Arab or Muslim women are covered up in black. I said some countries are more modern or backwards than others, let's say Saudi Arabia where women still can't drive or be out in public alone or talk with men unless they're relatives, no movies, no music, no dancing, etc. Sounds like a real fun existence for many Muslims, right? Even still in Egypt all belly dancers are considered whores, not sacred artists, not preserving ancient culture, certainly not as healers. I said that there must be a great conflict in many of these countries because there are very modern buildings, malls, western influences, and yet the rigid Muslim rules that prevent people from really enjoying the modern world.

Yeah, life is so great for most Muslim women that they need to escape to a non-Muslim country, have body guards to protect them as the get death threats or are murdered, just so they can speak freely about what goes on in their culture back home. Women trying to find every possible way to get out so they aren't forced into marriage or genital mutilation. So, yeah, that is what I mean when I spoke about being a mother and that I could never force such atrocities upon my own children. I don't know how Muslim women do it. How they raise children to be suicide bombers and then they pretend that it's great and they aren't suffering with the death of their precious child, or that they murdered others. Cover it up by saying it's Allah's command, it's for Islam. Double messages, double standards. Doesn't make any sense to me as a human being, and as a being created by God. Consider yourselves lucky that you didn't grow up in Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, of Afghanistan, or.....

And for your information, where do you get the idea that American parents don't support their children after age 16? hahahaha What a silly idea. My parents helped me, even though I worked and went to university full time, not only until I got married in my mid-20s, but even afterwards. It was their joy to help out. And you know what - it wasn't dependent upon me being a virgin until I married! That kind of blackmail or discussion never even entered into the picture or conversation. My body is my own business.

Lastly, my heart is not filled with hatred, but it does have some sadness seeing how people, especially women and children, are treated.
Also, when people kill over their God, showing they have no spirituality, have not learned a damn thing in millions of years. It's frustrating and angers me. Look at what happens in India - using little children as prostitutes and beggars, cutting off their arms or legs to make them look more pathetic so people will give hand-outs. Buying, selling, blackmailing women to be prisoner sex slaves - that happens in Muslim countries, too. Shall we talk about medical care for women in most Muslim nations? How can women have good medical care if a doctor can't even examine her properly? A male doctor can't touch a woman's body, nor even look directly at it, and then women aren't allowed to be doctors! Yeah, that's a very sane and balanced society?

What about Jill Caroll, a woman foolish enough to want to help Iraqis so she's kidnapped and now probably will be murdered for that. Let's remember Daniel Pearl and all the others who were kidnapped and tortured and viciously murdered - people who weren't violent, who were in a Muslim country to help or be objective - and because they were Westerners or Jewish they were murdered. So don't paint me a rosey picture that all is well in Muslim countries or culture.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 20:14 by Hanan Taha @196.202.91.33 : Congratulations Egypt
maybe this is completely out of the subject of the post , but I just can't stop myself:
CONGRATULATIONS EGYPT FOR WINNING THE AFRICAN CUP FOR THE 5TH TIME !!!
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

CONGRATULATIONS EGYPTIANS !!  



10 Feb 2006 @ 20:34 by vibrani : By the way
I noticed NOT ONE OF THE MUSLIMS HERE said one word about the cartoons I posted of Jesus!  


10 Feb 2006 @ 20:35 by Hanan Taha @196.202.91.33 : Still talking about women
Vibrani, my dear !!
What supernatural powers u have to know if the women here are suffering?
my dear, my parents keep me virgin means: keep me safe from rapist and twisted relationships because I,MYSELF, WANNA KEEP VIRGIN until wedding.It is my free will my dear not my parents'.It seems u wanna hunt any mistake from our discussion to strengnthen ur point of view.
And You should read the statistics that say that the Arab world has the least divorce records AND EUROPE HAS THE HIGHEST RATE OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN BEING HIT BY THEIR HUSBANDS. a woman of every 4 women is being hit in France which has made a dread to a U.N organization can't really remember its name.


This conversation has been really silly and made me feel real compassion for you poor western women, but I don't care....

I'm and still wanna be happy for Egypt. The Pharoes has broke the record of winning the African Cup...5 times!!!..Weeeeeeeeeee....HAIL EGYPT!!!  



10 Feb 2006 @ 20:42 by vibrani : hahaha
yeah, let's also look at the stats of women who committed suicide or were murdered in your nations, eh? [link] or [link]

Let's talk about women: when the Saudi prince and his delegation came here to visit Bush in Texas, they refused to be flown by a woman Navy pilot! They ordered women to wear Muslim clothes and that they have a male pilot. Tell me how women are respected, hypocrite.

You're treated as a baby and property - who can't take care of herself. As long as you're in denial, nothing will change. You can't even address most of what I've written.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 20:47 by vibrani : Finally
you said you feel compassion for women in the west, but you don't care?! hahahahaha That makes it null and void. How about feeling some compassion for your Muslim sisters?  


10 Feb 2006 @ 20:54 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : to Hanan Taha
You are wrong again hanan taha,

Surveys in Egypt, Palestine, Israel and Tunisia show that at least one out of three women is beaten by her husband.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 21:07 by Some French Dude @82.123.16.170 : ...women
"What supernatural powers u have to know if the women here are suffering? "
None, just eyes and ears :)

"the Arab world has the least divorce records "
Of course !!!!!... even in America/Europe where legal, psychological and material help is available it's difficult for a woman to break free from a bad marriage... so in muslim country where abuse of women is enshrined in the law, you bet it's next to impossible for a woman to part from an abusive husband, hence the low divorce rate !

"a woman of every 4 women is being hit in France which has made a dread to a U.N organization can't really remember its name"
...when you remember please post, because I'm very interested in a bit laugh :)  



10 Feb 2006 @ 21:11 by vibrani : Muslim women - and the future
look at Muslim divorce laws - they require witnesses - ALL MALE. A bit stacked, wouldn't you say? Women in some countries still can't vote.

Women and children cannot leave the country without written permission from the husband or father. More often than every two hours a woman is killed by a male relative for any reason. If a man feels snubbed for any reason, by any female (including a child - many children have already been scarred for life), he throws acid on her face and body to forever destroy her life. This is because women are seen as property and to marry a woman means the man gets a dowry. If any girl refuses him, he loses financially and therefore punishes her father by acid burning his daughter and making her an ineligible commodity. [Check India and Pakistan for these crimes.]

Taha and Kanaan - I've researched and cross-referenced and triple checked my sources for many years about human rights violations in the world, particulary in Muslim countries. It's hard to keep up with all of the reports of violence - they're daily - Muslim killing Muslims, Muslims killing non-Muslims. More than any other religion or culture in the world. You can criticize the U.S. all you like, no one is perfect and every country has its issues, but it doesn't hold a candle to what goes on in Muslim nations.

It does come down to this - do you want to join the 21st century and work together for the betterment of humanity, or not? At least a few Muslim women are trying to do so. In Jordan it took a WESTERN woman, Lisa, a Muslim, who married King Hussein, to make many positive changes for women. But there's so much more to be done.  



10 Feb 2006 @ 21:54 by bushman : Yes,
"do you want to join the 21st century and work together for the betterment of humanity, or not?"


That is the ultamate question. :}  



10 Feb 2006 @ 22:04 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : Objectivity

Vibrani, talking to you is a complete waste of time. You seem to know everything about your racist Israeli sterotypes of Arab culture and insist on enriching this blog with them. It is so funny that I have just told you I have two sisters as doctors then you try to convince me that women can't be doctors in the Arab world. In fact we have 18 doctors in the family and extended family; 11 of them are women. hahaha

I paid $10,000 to my wife as dowry and I have never heard of any acid being part of any marriage deals. Recycled lies and racist Israeli steroetypes. You know we have many stereotypes that portray Israeli and Zionists negatively. I choose not to post them here for objectivity purposes. OBJECTIVITY.. look it up in the dictionary.

Also I strongly advice that you let some love and compation enter your heart; just to let some of the hate out. I promise you will feel better.

Hanan, way to go. Congratulations Eygpt for the African Cup.

Cheers  



10 Feb 2006 @ 22:07 by bora @85.102.130.10 : you know the subject 3
The cartoon of Jesus does not seem to insult Jesus or the beliefs of Christians. So it is not the same thing as drawing Mahommed like that.  


10 Feb 2006 @ 22:14 by vibrani : You bought your wife
thank you for sharing that, Kanaan. You have just exposed your own closed mind, blind, hypocritical, in denial and ignorance in dozens of ways. You don't know the meaning of compassion...look IT up. The world doesn't revolve around your family only, Kanaan. You don't have the courage to reseach anything or give a shit about anyone else. I'll bet you didn't look at one link that might make you question your religion and culture. Yup, talking with me is a waste of your time because you can't sway me, nor provide any evidence that what I said isn't true for most Muslims in Arab and Muslim nations.
 



10 Feb 2006 @ 22:22 by vibrani : Bushman
even that direct a question isn't answered! lol No surprise.  


10 Feb 2006 @ 22:37 by Some French Dude @82.123.16.170 : bora
"The cartoon of Jesus does not seem to insult Jesus or the beliefs of Christians"

Stating that "Jesus lived and died as a Jew, he was never a Christian! Christianity is a human fabrication" would have earned you a first class ticket to the torture chamber in the Middle Age... did I say Middle Age ?... Christians have evolved, become more tolerant and open minded in a modern and strong faith... muslims kept a medieval mindset. But they have some excuses, after all they are just emulating their prophet who was a barbaric bloodthirsty, power hungry pedophile who had wet dreams, not divine inspiration, about 6yo girls and treated women like war bounty.

... besides, as a Christian, I agree that Jesus Christ was a Jew... that's not for nothing that we talk of "Judeo-Christian culture"  



11 Feb 2006 @ 06:49 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : horseshit
When we see Muslims coming out by the millions and denouncing terrorism and paying reparations for the thousands and thousands of Christians they've killed, then and only then might we have peace. Stay strong Denmark, this is one American who has your back. Oh, and Hossein, I'm still waiting for you to tell whether or not you're going to come to my town in big Texas. I think I'm going to drink some Danish made Carlsberg beer now and toast my fellow European brothers in Denmark, ancestors of the mighty Vikings!! All knees WILL bow to Jesus.  


11 Feb 2006 @ 06:57 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : obaid essa
your stupid. it's seems to me that a person like you who has to write a freaking novel to get whatever his point across is just writing a bunch of words so that people will think he's smart or something. obviously, from the outlandish content of your text, tribe of shabazz, 50,000 years ago wtf? whiteman's to blame , etc., you must be smoking some really fucked up shit. i think that you, like hossein, need to come down from cloud 9 and get a life. maybe you just need a good southern ass whipping or somethin'.  


11 Feb 2006 @ 10:02 by Hanan Taha @196.202.86.43 : >>>>>
This is a page that shows some statistics on women violence which shows that it is a phenomenon in the whole world not only the Middle East.Statistics say that Violence is concentrated more in Asia:
[link]

Listen everyone, if we go on talking about which religion is better and which is not,the posts will be endless.I'm not qualified to talk about Islam as much as others who have certifications on Islamic sciences.

I told u before,wether Islam ( The religion) is bad or good,no one has the right to make fun of its prophet on a public newspaper knowing how much that prophet mean to muslims and how much that may hurt them.

Maybe we have different cultures...maybe u r more openminded to accept insults to your prophets , but we are not. Call us fundamentalists...Call us people with no sense of humour...Call us whatever you want...we love this religion and strongly believe in it.

The truth of some nations not following the real Islamic rules blowing everything up, killing innocents,mistreating their women...That has nothing to do with The original Islam message which has been brought to us by Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him.

Maybe the reputaion of Islam has been distorted by those criminal terrorists whose actions have overwhelmed everything good other muslims do,so I won't blame you for the image you've been creating against muslims,BUT...
When you want to critisize,then critisize the people who commited the action not all the people who carry the same religion.

In spite of U.S.A actions for example, I don't hate Americans because they have nothing to do with their stupid presedent.Most of them even hate him.

I don't even hate Danes or any other people who ( I know) can't even hurt a fly Because I can discriminate between criminals and innocents. I have mind to think and judge.

I hope you do the same.  



11 Feb 2006 @ 11:02 by Tom @82.181.239.7 : Football
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Congratulations Egypt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  


11 Feb 2006 @ 12:01 by dxb_almarah @213.42.2.11 : johnnyboy
you need help boy because you are alcoholic and you don't have time to be educated so continue drinking your beer a leave other people at least to know who is there enemy.  


11 Feb 2006 @ 13:30 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : To Vibrani

I see I managed to get you quite upset with my previous post. That is OK, it is for your own good. Hate is not something any human should live with.

For your information, I studied outside of my religion extensively from Confucius to Islam and everything in between including Shinto, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. My belief in my faith has never been stronger. And no I didn’t use the pathetic links you posted as I tend to get my information from objective sources.

The dowry system is widely practiced in most of the world’s communities including many Christian and Hindu communities in different places. It is considered a show of commitment and respect to the pride and her family. If you look at it differently, that is OK. We don’t exist on this planet to please you.

Slavery was abolished by the prophet Mohammed 1,400 years ago. He ordered the slaves freed and used to Zakat money to purchase and free them. To Islam, all human beings are created equal. The prophet said: “Oh people, you were all created equal. There is no advantage for an Arab over a Persian or for a White over a Black except with hard work and good deeds”. I wish the Americans read this during the 19th and most of the 20th centuries.

The reason I said talking to you is a waste of time is because you are a person who is motivated by hate and not by a genuine quest to search for the truth. People like that usually keep repeating their lies even when they get exposed. They think that people will believe a lie if it is repeated enough.

Now I will not be checking this thread again as I have more important things to do. You are free to try to heal you heart from hate and be more objective or continue your hate speech. It is all up to you. Life goes on.

Cheers.  



11 Feb 2006 @ 13:36 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : To Vibrani (2)
BTW, I particularly enjoyed your piece about the poor Indian kids. It sounded so genuine. To me, it felt like the second Mother Teresa is upon us.  


11 Feb 2006 @ 14:14 by tommy @206.154.197.17 : muslim cartoons
I think the cartoons are funny! Who cares if the Muslims are offended! They are the most violent scum on the earth. The Prophet Mohammed? Never heard of him! As for the Koran, I bought to copies from the local bookstore, fiction section of course. I keep a copy of the Koran in my bathroom and use its pages as toilet paper.  


11 Feb 2006 @ 17:06 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : dxb almarah
shut up dxb you pissant, your the Boy. why don't you join Hossien and Obaid Essa and come on over to my little southern town in big Tex. You need a good ass kicking. Your just probably to scared and couldn't do it with your fists any way. You'd probably do it like the little prick coward most Muslim men are by using a weapon. I think that you need some beer thrown on you while you watch as a set the Koran on fire.  


11 Feb 2006 @ 17:37 by vibrani : Kanaan
Not only do you assume a lot, I wonder what planet you think you're living on? You have such a miniscule grasp of reality and interest on this one. Tunnel vision. I read your posts and shake my head. I don't hate. I am disgusted, however. It will be a long time before this planet sees peace because there are millions with your attitude that prevents peace. Not a hudna, a REAL peace. Can't make peace with people who always call you their enemy and demand your death and don't acknowledge the lack of civil rights in their own nations.

Here are the peaceful Muslims - this week alone Israel thwarted 15 missile attacks and 80, that's right 80, suicide bombers trying to enter Israel.

And right now: Danish Foreign Ministry urges all Danes to leave Indonesia, saying they are being threatened by extremist group over prophet drawings, The Associated Press reports. Has the west awakened from it's coma, yet? This is a religious war. It's Islam versus the rest of the world. Don't be afraid, the free West, be strong, it's the only language they understand. We will not revert back in time, nor pacificy the rants and demands of lunatics so cut off from the Source.  



11 Feb 2006 @ 19:23 by bushman : Hmm
I'm thinking, most humans on this planet are more twisted than thier own DNA.
Not that it really maters, but, maybe the religion of beer drinking and football, is the only answer. Shall we go over to our muslim friends, have a bible/koran study and pass a joint around first, so it dosnt turn into a fight? lol. Anyway, according to my version of the bible, the worst destruction comes when everyone is celebrating peace. That one day we will have to come together as one race one religion, to save our sorry asses from a more cosmicly caused end. Shall we be caught fighting among ourselves in that day? As well, will the destruction be seen by many as Gods/Allahs wrath or this time around,or will we, write our story, with true knowledge of the cosmos and mankinds place in it? It was suposedly said by Christ, "forgive them father, for they know not, what they do" , that was then, today, we know, what we do, and it aint pretty.
There will be no winners in the end, if the human race dosnt get its shit together.  



11 Feb 2006 @ 19:29 by vibrani : Right
we have written our history, but few want to get it, Bushman. This is the planet of illusions and separation, after all. Skal and Budmo!  


11 Feb 2006 @ 20:01 by rID oN3 @222.124.11.127 : learn
Press sh0uld learn the freedom of expression doesn't mean to abuse others fundamental rights. this time is a good thing to learn. don't repeat this history in the future. the freedom of depression is worse than f of exprsn. here we are, altough it seems partly spread, we'll gonna be one unity for level 2 problem.
ALLAHUAKBAR !!!  



11 Feb 2006 @ 20:07 by vibrani : Up yours
your fundamental rights my ass. NONE of your rights were removed by publishing a cartoon!  


11 Feb 2006 @ 20:08 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.139 : ...!!!...
Kanaan is leaving?
So I shall speak with a punch of people who think they know everything about us and all what they do is repeating ( ironically ) the same Bla Bla Bla?
Oh no no...I'm leaving too...I'd rather speak with someone more educated.

I have no time for hoax.

Bye Bye.  



11 Feb 2006 @ 20:08 by vibrani : You would know about hoaxes
fakirs. Go - you aren't serious about peace and honesty, anyway.  


12 Feb 2006 @ 00:05 by Redco @62.114.93.37 : Know Islam From California University
hello every one i just want to write this link because thats my last visit here

[link]

visit it , it is about Islam ,Qur'an and Muhammed from The University Of California , i talked about manythings here i hope you understand it , thanks
for all of your Insults about Islam Muhammed (saas) and Muslims , God is there and he knows it and i leave this matter that you may understand what i said here anyway

last thing i would like to do is this:


In Saudia arabia desert a plant in shape of word " Allah " which is "God"



From Gaudrian News Paper of United Kingdom : A fish written on it Allah and Muhammed , Guardian Unlimited, Thursday February 2 2006
Paul Lewis

topic on this link
[link],,1700465,00.html


here is its picture

Oscar the fish, whose markings are being compared to the Arabic script for Allah and Muhammad. Photograph: Martin Ricket/PA


and the topic written :

As supposed miracles go, Oscar the fish is the best that the town of Waterfoot, near Bury, has ever seen.
Locals flocked to the village's pet shop, Water Aquatic, this week after it was noticed that the markings on the scales of the two-year-old albino Oscar fish mimicked the Arabic script for Allah.

That the other side of the fish appeared to be inscribed with the word Muhammad only served to compound the spectacle. Within hours, Oscar - originally from Singapore - found hordes of locals, paparazzi and national television news reporters peering into his tank.

Mohammed Riaz-Shahid, 38, the manager of the Oasis Fast Food restaurant across the road was quickly appointed interpreter and led the chorus of claims that this was a message from above.
"There's no doubt about it," he said. "The markings are clear to see. Allah on one side, Muhammad on the other."

"Christians, Jews - they all believe in God," he explained. "So God's showing a sign to everyone, a sign that he's here."

Peter Hurst, 17, concurred. "It's a sign of something - no doubt - probably God," he said. "It's amazing, especially for this time of year."

Perhaps the most flabbergasted visitor of all was a man from "a town nearby" who asked to remain anonymous. Last night, he claimed, he had dreamed about a whale with the words Muhammad and Allah inscribed on its head.

"It's real, it's real," he said in awe, biting his fingers. "As soon as I heard I came running. I didn't think twice about the dream until I saw the fish on the television." Eyeing the patterns a little suspiciously, he added: "I hope that wasn't painted on."

On closer inspection, however, he agreed the markings were naturally occurring, and the fish was indeed sent as evidence of God's existence.

But the manager of the shop, Tony Walker, 27, had an altogether different explanation for the "miracle" fish's appearance on his premises.

"I would hope it came to me because I'm an honest man," he said. "Someone up there sent the fish because of the way I choose to run my business."

The owner, Naz Raja, 29, from Nelson near Blackburn, who purchased the fish two weeks ago for £10, told Guardian Unlimited he was less sure about the divine origin of his new pet.

"I bought it because it was beautiful. It might be a sign, I suppose," he said. But a miracle?

"Kind of, yeah."



==========



thats all , i am out for now , i leave you with this to think about and see

"La ELah Ella Allah Muhammed Rasol Allah"  



12 Feb 2006 @ 00:14 by Redco @62.114.93.37 : forgot 2

a peroquet which spoken and said two Parts from Qu'ran " Fatha and Ekhlas "

[link]


and the Guardian link i posted up it doesnt show up all in one link its continuation is written there u need to copy it when u open the link and paste it next to it

or go to this link u will find it first topic click on it to see it from there your self

[link]  



12 Feb 2006 @ 04:46 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : Racist

Vibrani:
I am sure you must be disgusted. You feel that you are a better mother than other mothers. You believe that your society is perfect while others ought to be slandered. I am also sure you believe that you are God's chosen... (Ignorant, arrogant, and racist).

Bye  



12 Feb 2006 @ 08:59 by Wtf dude chill out @64.114.107.128 : Wtf???
Mohammad Kanaan can you please shut up already, and see the fact that alot of your fellow muslims are not innocent. As an American, I feel that it is unfair to Blame the whole entire Country of Denmark when it was only a couple of people who worked on the newspaper, Denmark has alot of Freedom, they cannot control the Freedom of press It is the law Unlike your countries were you hang people in public so every one can watch (barberic Sharia law), and stop blaming Israel too please, the Media focuses On Israel being the bad guy alot But we all know what Palestine is up too I KNOW ABOUT SHAHIDS were parents send off their kids to go and Blow them selves up to kill as many jews like its a fucking game [link] Go and take a look for your self, I find it very funny too that I see MORE Muslims Protesting about some stupid ass looking cartoons rather than protesting about HAMMAS Winning the elections, Iranian President making Outrageous Statments, The Murder of Theo van Gogh by Psycho Islamic Nutbag, the madrid Bombings, The London Bombings, WTC 9-11, The new Jersy Fammily Massacare, Australian Riots, France Riots, Christian School girls Beheaded In Indonesia ON THE STREET ( fucking sick bastards ), AND MUCH MUCH MORE. I see you fanatics In the masses running around in the streets with AK47's in your hands Channting allah ackbar, The muslims here in America are Protesting too but theyre doing it very peacefully and i respect that, because you have the right to be pissed off, BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO BLAME AN ENTIRE NATION AND FIRE BOMB ALL OF THEIR EMBASIES AND MURDER AND THREATEN, I am 100% sure Mohammad would not be pleased, or maybie your just doing it for the 72 virgins that you will recive in the afterlife? YOU DONT SEE US AMERICANS FIRE BOMBING YOUR EMBASIES FOR 9-11 !! Today I was watching the news and I saw the press asking Palestinians about Sharons condition of his current stroke, Most of the Palestinians who answerd prayed that he would die, but one man spoke out and he said " I forgive Arial sharon, I do not wish for his death, Allah bless him " when i saw this man speak out I said " wow " i was very touched that he could forgive him like that when every one els was urging for Revenge and beahdings and massacars. I apologize for those i have offended today, I am just sick and tired of all this hate, Allah Bless those peacefull Loving Muslims may allah bring out more, Bless you all, good bye and dont forget to watch this last link

[link] ( we should be protesting, but we forgive you)

[link]  



12 Feb 2006 @ 10:22 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : go get 'em
you tell em vibrani!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! those damn fool muslims think they can scare us by totin round guns just cause of a cartoon. get a life you idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!yeeeeehawwwwwwwwwwwww, bang, bang, bang(shoots american made m16 into the air)bang bang bang! (shoots koran with .357), cheers (lifts beer to danish brothers along with american flag)gulp gulp gulp (drinks his Danish made Carlsberg beer)  


12 Feb 2006 @ 10:32 by vibrani : Kanaan
needs to learn how to read...he missed everything I said to him. Well, what can you do with heads in the sand - they can't see....

As far as I'm concerned, Muslims could use some lessons in being civilized. Their hoity-toity words are phoney attempts at proper etiquette. Humph. Going ape shit over cartoons and they don't see how childish they are.

Skal - I like Carlsberg beer, too.  



12 Feb 2006 @ 10:32 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : wtf?
HHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, McMuslims, it's a freakin cartoon. a CARTOON. you dont even know what mohammad looked like. what if it had been the picture just with Walt Disney written for the name instead of your prophet? would you have banned freakin Mickey Mouse? Blown up Minnie? this kind of logic that you use to justify burning everything in the name of a freakin CARTOON is why the world doesn't take you seriously. For real, I've said some stupid things on here (and no I don't hate Islam or nothin) but if somebody showed a negative cartoon of Jesus I would NOT go around protesting, shooting guns, or burning down foreign embassies. I'd just chalk it up to somebody's stupidity. And by the way Muslims, God bless you. I've just been kidding about all the previous posts (except for this one).  


12 Feb 2006 @ 10:35 by vibrani : johnnyboy
think they even know Mickey and Minnie? They probably are banned for being too obscene and controversial, maybe because Minnie wears lipstick and heels and is a single mouse living alone, she wears a short dress and no head scarf.

Did you know that "Mein Kampf" was recently as high as #6 on the Palestinian bestseller list? That's true.  



12 Feb 2006 @ 11:03 by vibrani : A final word to Muslims
I'm really tired of your hypocrisy. You can't be a real "Muslim" if you don't accept Israel's right to exist, and the Jewish people - you came from them through Abraham, and Jerusalem and Al Aqsa (where is the Dome of the Rock, Al Aqsa, and the site of the Western Wall, and first and second Jewish Temples) is where Isacc was almost sacrificed. And if you don't believe that Jews lived in ancient Israel, remember this Jewish guy named Jesus, who you say is a prophet you respect (along with Moses)? Instead of finding every excuse to use Israel as your scapegoat for everything imagined, you should be defending it. But Palestinian Muslims sure recognize Israel when it comes to getting a check every month from them! You talk about Zionism, as if it's evil. What about Islamism? Anyone seen a map? Look at all the Muslim nations just surrounding Israel...Muslim run governments, by Islamic law. That's okay but one tiny Jewish nation isn't? Hypocrites. And before you order the rest of the world around, get your own house in order. Grow up. A spiritual society is one that takes full self-responsibility, is honest, and has compassion and integrity.  


12 Feb 2006 @ 17:15 by Some French Dude @82.123.16.238 : ...women
As muslims seem to like cartoons, here is a good one :)

 



12 Feb 2006 @ 18:43 by Dr RJP @64.192.108.60 : Islamic tolerance and other oxymorons
The riots and death threats that are emanating out of the fundamentalist Muslim world over the publishing of cartoons about Mohammed should give pause to everyone who cherishes Western freedoms. These threats amount to a gun being placed to the head of Democracy by Muslims who demand that we abrogate our freedom of expression. What is not at issue here is whether these cartoons were insensitive or provocative (which they were), but the idea that we live in a culture where free speech about religious topics is both tolerated and encouraged, while free speech about religious topics in Muslim countries is both banned and punishable.

The Muslims who are rioting complain that we do not understand them, but sadly we understand them all too well. It is they who do not understand our culture and our freedoms. President Bush and many Muslims call Islam a “religion of peace,” but the word, “Islam,” means “submission,” and that submission is often achieved through intimidation, persecution, fear, torture, and murder. President Bush says that America is not at war with Islam, but Islam is at war with itself. Fundamentalist Muslims are waging a “holy war” to turn the entire world into a Muslim one under Shar’ia law. Consequently, they have divided the world into two parts: those who follow their religious laws, and those who do not. For those who do not, they see only two possible choices: either conversion or death.

Can you imagine some Christians reacting the way some Muslim have done if someone were to publish a cartoon of Jesus? Better yet, what about Jews who are the targets of the most vile and disgusting cartoons ever drawn -- cartoons appear daily in newspapers throughout the Arab world and depict Jews as apes, pigs, snakes, rats, and all sorts of vermin? Jewish holy men (Rabbis) are shown eating the blood of Arab children or using it to make Matzoh (the infamous “Blood libel”). Jewish people are always shown as having long, hooked noses and Jewish leaders are always drawn to look like Hitler. Can you imagine Jews firebombing a mosque in protest? Can you imagine Jews threatening the kill the cartoonists? Jews certainly have every reason to complain about these cartoons, but the Arab world could care less about their complaints. So, do not talk to me about being insensitive or intolerant, Mr. Muslim!

Being tolerant and sensitive to the beliefs of others is one thing, but fundamentalist Muslims want special treatment shown to them above and beyond what others are due. If they do not get that favoritism, then they will demand it through intimidation. Our freedoms are under attack, and are in danger of being lost thanks to the “politically correct” who wish to appease a group that cannot be appeased except by our destruction. You may disagree with me and I respect your right to do so. That is the beauty of America. But, don’t tell me that I lack the right to disagree with you.  



12 Feb 2006 @ 20:09 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : to Dr RJP
That is exactly how it is – a very good comment, thank you Dr RJP.  


12 Feb 2006 @ 20:38 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : Kofi Annan talks about the cartoons
Click on - Kofi Annan opfordrer til, at vi sænker stemmen nu. (TV AVISEN 18:30) (02:02)

[link]  



12 Feb 2006 @ 21:33 by vibrani : We were brought up to hate, and we do
By Nonie Darwish
(Filed: 12/02/2006)

The controversy regarding the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed completely misses the point. Of course, the cartoons are offensive to Muslims, but newspaper cartoons do not warrant the burning of buildings and the killing of innocent people. The cartoons did not cause the disease of hate that we are seeing in the Muslim world on our television screens at night - they are only a symptom of a far greater disease.

I was born and raised as a Muslim in Cairo, Egypt and in the Gaza Strip. In the 1950s, my father was sent by Egypt's President, Gamal Abdel Nasser, to head the Egyptian military intelligence in Gaza and the Sinai where he founded the Palestinian Fedayeen, or "armed resistance". They made cross-border attacks into Israel, killing 400 Israelis and wounding more than 900 others.

My father was killed as a result of the Fedayeen operations when I was eight years old. He was hailed by Nasser as a national hero and was considered a shaheed, or martyr. In his speech announcing the nationalisation of the Suez Canal, Nasser vowed that all of Egypt would take revenge for my father's death. My siblings and I were asked by Nasser: "Which one of you will avenge your father's death by killing Jews?" We looked at each other speechless, unable to answer.

In school in Gaza, I learned hate, vengeance and retaliation. Peace was never an option, as it was considered a sign of defeat and weakness. At school we sang songs with verses calling Jews "dogs" (in Arab culture, dogs are considered unclean).

Criticism and questioning were forbidden. When I did either of these, I was told: "Muslims cannot love the enemies of God, and those who do will get no mercy in hell." As a young woman, I visited a Christian friend in Cairo during Friday prayers, and we both heard the verbal attacks on Christians and Jews from the loudspeakers outside the mosque. They said: "May God destroy the infidels and the Jews, the enemies of God. We are not to befriend them or make treaties with them." We heard worshippers respond "Amen".

My friend looked scared; I was ashamed. That was when I first realised that something was very wrong in the way my religion was taught and practised. Sadly, the way I was raised was not unique. Hundreds of millions of other Muslims also have been raised with the same hatred of the West and Israel as a way to distract from the failings of their leaders. Things have not changed since I was a little girl in the 1950s.

Palestinian television extols terrorists, and textbooks still deny the existence of Israel. More than 300 Palestinians schools are named after shaheeds, including my father. Roads in both Egypt and Gaza still bear his name - as they do of other "martyrs". What sort of message does that send about the role of terrorists? That they are heroes. Leaders who signed peace treaties, such as President Anwar Sadat, have been assassinated. Today, the Islamo-fascist president of Iran uses nuclear dreams, Holocaust denials and threats to "wipe Israel off the map" as a way to maintain control of his divided country.

Indeed, with Denmark set to assume the rotating presidency of the UN Security Council, the flames of the cartoon controversy have been fanned by Iran and Syria. This is critical since the International Atomic Energy Agency is expected to refer Iran to the Security Council and demand sanctions. At the same time, Syria is under scrutiny for its actions in Lebanon. Both Iran and Syria cynically want to embarrass the Danes to achieve their dangerous goals.

But the rallies and riots come from a public ripe with rage. From my childhood in Gaza until today, blaming Israel and the West has been an industry in the Muslim world. Whenever peace seemed attainable, Palestinian leaders found groups who would do everything to sabotage it. They allowed their people to be used as the front line of Arab jihad. Dictators in countries surrounding the Palestinians were only too happy to exploit the Palestinians as a diversion from problems in their own backyards. The only voice outside of government control in these areas has been the mosques, and these places of worship have been filled with talk of jihad.

Is it any surprise that after decades of indoctrination in a culture of hate, that people actually do hate? Arab society has created a system of relying on fear of a common enemy. It's a system that has brought them much-needed unity, cohesion and compliance in a region ravaged by tribal feuds, instability, violence, and selfish corruption. So Arab leaders blame Jews and Christians rather than provide good schools, roads, hospitals, housing, jobs, or hope to their people.

For 30 years I lived inside this war zone of oppressive dictatorships and police states. Citizens competed to appease and glorify their dictators, but they looked the other way when Muslims tortured and terrorised other Muslims. I witnessed honour killings of girls, oppression of women, female genital mutilation, polygamy and its devastating effect on family relations. All of this is destroying the Muslim faith from within.

It's time for Arabs and Muslims to stand up for their families. We must stop allowing our leaders to use the West and Israel as an excuse to distract from their own failed leadership and their citizens' lack of freedoms. It's time to stop allowing Arab leaders to complain about cartoons while turning a blind eye to people who defame Islam by holding Korans in one hand while murdering innocent people with the other.

Muslims need jobs - not jihad. Apologies about cartoons will not solve the problems. What is needed is hope and not hate. Unless we recognise that the culture of hate is the true root of the riots surrounding this cartoon controversy, this violent overreaction will only be the start of a clash of civilis-ations that the world cannot bear.

• Nonie Darwish is a freelance writer and public speaker. [link]  



12 Feb 2006 @ 23:37 by Hanan Taha @196.202.91.185 : One Last word To everyone
I'm not posting again to express any point of view...
I just wanted to apologize if my last post was alittle rude..
World peace is one of my biggest dreams too...
About the part when I said u ain't educated, no...u r well educated and I admit that I've known pretty much from u even if we disagree in some other points...


one more thing before I leave and plz don't laugh...I want some tips from someone who can tell me how to raise a cat , specially when it comes to cleaning it because I have a phopia from Germs and Insects... :))

Bye Bye

Bye Bye  



12 Feb 2006 @ 23:39 by Hanan Taha @196.202.91.185 : ......
Ah !! send them to e-mail plz..  


13 Feb 2006 @ 04:05 by Jackassbitchassfool @64.114.107.128 : HAHAHAH LOOK LOOK HAHAHAH
http://www.hcsdirect.com/images/aintithetruth.jpg - lmao aint it the truth!! HAHAHA THIS PICTURE IS HILARIOUSS KICK OUR ASSES HAHAHAH THATS PRICLESS!!  


13 Feb 2006 @ 06:11 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : Violence

[link]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FD8A7A9A-487C-4D19-9343-662C9FD5E464.htm

[link],,3-2038149,00.html

This just shows that violence and stupidity is not limited to one group.

For those who defend, promote, and practice hate speech on both sides; this is the result of your wisdom.  



13 Feb 2006 @ 06:16 by Mohammad Kanaan @212.77.203.246 : One more

[link]  



13 Feb 2006 @ 07:38 by WtfDude chill out @64.114.107.128 : Shut the fuck up Mohammad Kanaan
Shut the fuck up Mohammad Kannan, first of all to the Defiling of the Mosque You wonder why they are fed up with your shit, Ill tell you why, Its because the Endless amount Of Shahids [link] ( A Shahid is a Kid who goes and Blows him self up for allah look at link) So thats bull shit first of all its the Ottomans Empires fault For Siding with Hitler in WW2 so why dont you blame your selves for the creation of israel, Second of all with the Little spanking the brits gave those kids, was for a reson, The kids were throwing rocks at them, We arent patient like the Israely army, we will fuck you up if you throw a rocks at us, What do you expect us to do? reatreat from rock throwing? fuck that, those little shits deserved what they had comming, What do you expect when you throw a stone at a Soldier? really how stupid can you be? shut the fuck up Mohammad kanaan why dont you watch all these Links and see the truth...

[link]


http://www.isratv.com/video/filmpmwadsl.asx

[link]

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/audio/eugene-armstrong-beheading-video.wmv

[link]
(DISGRACULL TO OUR COUNTRY! WATCH THIS ONE)

[link]

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-976420.php (watch how they shoot an american soldier and chant allah
akbar!)  



13 Feb 2006 @ 07:41 by Mohammad Kanaan is gay @64.114.107.128 : haha
Consider your self lucky they didnt shoot the little shits, the soldiers are not there to give out flowers, they are tough mean as they are expected to be, thos kids should have known better.  


13 Feb 2006 @ 07:44 by vibrani : Hanan and Mohammad
completely ignored the article written by a Muslim telling the truth about how they are indoctrinated since birth into hatred and fear and blackmail. DENIAL!  


13 Feb 2006 @ 07:54 by obaid @213.42.2.11 : johnnyBOY
so you are a littel BOY from a littel southern town who is a brave BOY !! will let me tell you something THE DOG BARK ONLY INFRONT OF HIS HOUSE.  


13 Feb 2006 @ 07:59 by nashow @60.41.60.102 : shocking images of British soldiers
World sees shocking images of British soldiers' brutality
By Dominic Kennedy

The assault on four Iraqi teenagers and the cameraman's mocking commentary have enraged people throughout the Middle East


A SHOCKING breakdown of military discipline is caught on video as eight burly British soldiers rain 42 kicks and blows on four puny young male Iraqi civilians, one of them a child.
The victims’ helpless cries for mercy and howls of pain and terror are ignored by groups of troops casually passing by. One man is heard to say: “In the f***ing head.”



The most senior soldier, thought to be a sergeant, does nothing to stop the brutality but instead delivers a vicious kick to one victim’s genitals.

The video’s soundtrack features a disturbing commentary from the cameraman, an excited sentry who laughs, sneers, encourages and mocks as the outrage unfolds before him.

Still images from the video, provided by a paid whistleblower and published in the News of the World, prove that the incident was far from being a unique atrocity perpetrated by the British forces in Iraq.

In another location an Iraqi civilian is seen being forced to kneel alone behind a brick wall by three soldiers who kick him hard in the chest.

A further episode sees a soldier display the corpse of a young Iraqi man, lift the victim’s head and display it to the camera. The cameraman defiles the body by twice kicking the dead face, a grievous insult to Arabs who regard shoes as dirty. A soldier laughs: “He’s been a bad motherf***er”.

But it is the casual savagery of the attack on the four young males, in effect prisoners of the British forces, which forms the most devastating two minutes of the video.

At first, groups of youths throw stones at the stronghold but they flee when lines of baton-wielding British soldiers emerge. A radio voice screeches targets for the troops: “Black top, blue bottoms — go on!”

Some of the Britons return, dragging their captives in headlocks. The moment they get inside the perimeter wall, out of sight of the civilian population, the violence begins.

The first victim, a boy no older than his early teens, is released from a headlock by a soldier still wearing his helmet who immediately head-butts him. The boy cries “No, please” and clings helplessly to the soldier’s baton. Another soldier grabs the boy’s neck and throws him to the ground. The first soldier brings his baton smashing down on to the child.

A second, slightly built youth is repeatedly dealt heavy blows with the baton until he crumples. A third victim is battered to the ground with a baton and kicked repeatedly like a football. In a distressing image the prisoner is last seen unconscious with a dark patch, resembling blood, around his head.

The cameraman shouts with delight when the captives are first brought into the compound. “Yes, yes, oh yes, you’re going to get it,” he says. “Yes, naughty little boys. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Phwoar. You little f***ers, you little f***ers. Die!” He mocks the captives’ pleas for mercy, adopting a high-pitched voice to say: “No, please don’t hurt me!”

The News of the World published extracts from the video on its website yesterday, allowing millions of people to download the images. The newspaper studied the video for several days, taking pains to confirm that it was genuine after hoax Iraqi abuse photographs cost Piers Morgan his job as Editor of the Daily Mirror. Stuart Kuttner, the News of the World’s managing editor, said: “We’ve made inquiries of the source, of people around the source, of military experts, of the Ministry of Defence and beyond.”

One of the key mysteries is how such a film could exist and be shown to military personnel for two years without the obvious crimes depicted being reported to the authorities.

 



13 Feb 2006 @ 08:26 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Stfu plz
Shut up please, The kids Deserved what they got, what the hell do you expect? the soldiers are not there to give out flowers to every one, they are there to preserve Disaplin and protection of the 'GOOD', Dont blame that shit on the british soldiers, The kids got what they had comming, if they didnt want any trouble they wouldent have thrown stones. The kids obiously dont want your sympathy stfu plz. Stop being a pansy.  


13 Feb 2006 @ 09:18 by Hanan Taha @196.202.85.173 : hmmm,seems that i won't let go of it...
This is a brand new thing to discuss...I can't stop myself from commenting...

Wtf Dude CHill out >Whatever those kids has done,they are still LITTLE KIDS.
We have agreed with u that terrorists are bad people,so why u make excuses for such a brutal action ? Those are also bad people. Any man that hits a kid or a woman is never considered a hero.This is a global principal wether u agreed with it or not.
One more thing is,destroying a mosque is never a solution to stop terrorism.They can put detectors there to spy on conspiracies being held,but they have to respect religious buildings of others.
When Omar Bin Al-Khattab ( one of our prophet's friends) has entered Jerusalem's main church,people asked him to do Islamic prayer there , but he refused because he was afraid that someday,someone will come and say this is the place where Omar prayed ,hence it must be converted to a mosque !!
You can't also make excuses for the way that some American soldiers has treated Iraqis in Abo-Ghreib picturing them in disgusting pornographic poses and scaring them to death with black dogs.Don't convince me that those are Good soldiers.
My point is , no one is good all the time and no one is bad all the time.
so you have to discriminate fairly between both types.  



13 Feb 2006 @ 13:44 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : your ignorant rant earlier
Of course the dog barks loudest in front of his own house. It because its HIS house! And you moron, if you read my last post, you can read that I said that I was kidding about everything except my last post. And further BOY, your the one that wrote all that stupid shit about the tribe of shabazz, black people being 65 trillion years old, black people's plight being the fault of the white man (God bless us all), and other such pathetic nonsense. You see Obaid, if that is your real name, that's the wonderful thing about America I CAN actually bark in front of my house because it is MY house. Go to one of those third world back waters in the Middle East and you'll be lucky if you can even be allowed to pray in your own house, unless of course you're Muslim. That you expect people to actually believe this fantastical twisted history of yours is insulting to the intelligent people on this blog. Are you taking Valium or something? And thank you for calling me a dog Obaid, they are some of the most pure and loyal creatures on this planet. Much higher beings than you could ever hope to be...........................................................................................................................  


13 Feb 2006 @ 14:16 by Mohammad Kanaan @82.148.96.67 : Preserving Discipline

Wtf Dude Chill out:
Let me get this straight, the British troops are there to preserve discipline this way??? You know Saddam Hussain preserved excellent discipline the exact same way. So again, What did you go in and kill 100,000 civilians for? what did you spend trillions of $$ for? Wake up guys, wake up and smell your diapers.

Cheers  



13 Feb 2006 @ 15:34 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : Mohammad Kanaan
Mohammad Kanaan wrote:
My message to fellow Danes is: It was nice having you as friends for the past few decades. Now that you have insulted us for no reason and refused to apologize, we wouldn't want to hear from you again.
-------
So you think a story in the newspaper represent the Danish people's feelings and we the Danes should apologize? (the newspaper did give you an apologize) are you some kind of a nut or what. You don't know anything about Denmark and the way we live here I am sure. And after what we have seen on TV I am affraid you lost a friend.

And NO Cheers to you.  



13 Feb 2006 @ 17:12 by Erik-a Dane @86.52.105.106 : A Shit-Hole Full of Fools
A Shit-Hole Full of Fools,

Sometimes I wonder what have those thousands of years and hundreds of civilizations that passed through our region done to us? What have they offered? An accumulation of hatred, problems, disappointments, self-doubt, and wars.
Ever since we were small kids we were taught to brag about our past, the historic richness of our homeland. It was always implied to us that it is something to be proud of, but at times I start thinking that it is merely an act of stupidity.
For people like us, so rooted in their past and surrounded by all this history of conflicts, isn't it harder to start from scratch? At some point in time, that is what a civilization needs, starting from scratch. Putting all the past behind its back and moving on. Ataturk forced the Ottoman's to do so, the French revolution was successful in doing so, the Maoists of China attemted for a decade, and succeeded in seperating the past from their nation's future. The United States of America was built in a whole new continent... regardless of how successful those attempts and movements were, regardless of the names they hold, they made a difference.
We have been living in the shit-hole, this middle-east for centuries, going in circles, stuck to our past, not just stuck, but longing to go back to the old days, fighting our ancestors' battles and losing their wars over and over again.
I am desperate, I feel as if everyone I know is a fool who just does not grasp what we are going through, just endorsing hatred as an ideology and giving it names to avoid the guilt.
If only my people would educate themselves a bit, and try to understand the world, before asking the world to understand their complexes and insecurity.
What is this post all about?
Disappointment and despair.

A Muslim  



13 Feb 2006 @ 18:24 by pgp @212.33.117.227 : me
thank you  


13 Feb 2006 @ 21:03 by Islam lives @212.33.117.227 : unified we stand
It has been brought to my attention that IP 212.33.117.227 has been used on this page to insult the Prophet Mohammed Bless his soul and the religion of islam.I am responsible for a range of IP's including this IP. What has been said by the person calling himself islamisdying who is deranged about the Prohet Mohammed and Islam is sickening and it is meant to create tensions in the Holy Land Between Christians and Moslems. Christians and Moslems in the Holy Land have been living in peace for centuries we are all PALESTINIANS suffering from the same occupation. And no hostilities ever existed between the two religions. The cartoons that beared insult to the prophet Mohamed were condemned by both christians and moslims and people who talk about freedom of expression should know that their freedom ends when it infringes on other peoples freedom.Finally I would like to say that people who attack islam in the name of christianity do not know anything about either religion for both religions are based on love and understanding and I have not seen either love or understaning on this page.  


13 Feb 2006 @ 21:19 by vibrani : Suffering
is from the occupation of your corrupt leaders who have stolen from you and lied to you and taught you to hate and kill in the name of Allah. Christians haven't complained about this occupation nor have they become violent, or murderers. Only the Muslims have. No hostilities ever existed between the two religions? What do you call the murder of hundreds of thousands of Christians by the Muslims, much of it ordered and carried out by Arafat and Assad? Love and understanding? Suicide bombers - love and understanding of others? Do you know what Arafat ordered? He wanted to torture a Christian leader in Beirut, so he had the man's daughter kidnapped and had her breasts cut off, of course killed her, and sent them to her father in a burlap bag. Think we don't know what's going on? Maybe you don't know?  


13 Feb 2006 @ 21:21 by A Dane @86.52.105.106 : My last comment here.
I hope at least some of you (Muslims) will understand that it was neither Denmark nor the Danish people who printed these cartoons, but a newspaper, and they did give you an apology. So let’s put an end to all this and look forward.

Have a nice day - to all of you!  



13 Feb 2006 @ 23:30 by Wtf Dude Chill out @64.114.107.128 : to Mohammad Kanaan
Saddam Strapped Electricity wires on peoples Dicks and eletrecuted them Shock therapy for hours. that is nothing like the British did, I also said i felt Sympathy for The children, Also I give up its no use arguing any more, These are my final words, The Danish people have nothing to do with this, it is THE NEWSPAPER!!! freedom of speach, you have to understand that your Goverment is not the same as theirs, the Goverment has no controll over them, Allah bless you all May world Peace come to us all one day, God bless you all.  


13 Feb 2006 @ 23:31 by Islam lives @212.33.117.227 : Vibrani
The shame is that you have no clue of what you are talking about. countless palestinian christians are in israeli jails at this moment. just for your knowledge starting with the crusades to the second world war to the two gulf wars it has been the christians who attack the moslem world. I am sure that you are jewish and the hatred in your heart is blinding you to the truth.  


14 Feb 2006 @ 01:18 by stevieboy21 @24.227.187.254 : responding
why is everybody fighting over some cartoons. Instead of getting together and creating shit,destroying property, they should get together and figure on how to become more liked by the rest or the world, and prove to us why we shouldn't link the muslims with terrorist.  


14 Feb 2006 @ 04:16 by vibrani : Islam lives - you wish
Palestinians in Israeli jails are there because they're terrorists - they murderered or tried to murder people. I DO know what I'm talking about, that's what bothers you.  


14 Feb 2006 @ 06:15 by Wtf Dude Chill out @64.114.107.128 : To Stevieboy21
Right on Stevieboy21!  


14 Feb 2006 @ 07:57 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : reexamine your biased history/islam live
While it is true that Christians have attacked Muslims like you say. Muslims also have a LOOOOOOOOOOONGGGGGGGGG history of attacking peoples of ofther faiths. You say from the crusades up until today. That I will give you. The first crusade started in approximately 1100 AD. So from there until today is approximately 900 years. Muslims have also attacked Christians from the Crusades until today. Again: 900 years. Islam started in approximately 600 AD and between that year up until say about 1100 AD succeeded in virtually pushing Jusaism and Christianity out of the Middle East and even made inroads into Europe were in not for the defeat of Islamic forces by Charles Martel the Hammer of France and his subsequent halting of your religion's advance into Western Europe. So you can add 500 years approximately to you figure of the crusades until today for a total of 1400 years. Islam has been attacking Christianity for approximatley 500 years longer than Christianity has been attacking Islam. To sum it up, your religion started it. As to your post about you being responsible for a broad range of IPs that sounds like a veiled threat. Was it? You need to get off your podium about Islam being a religion of peace. It attacked other religions for 500 years longer than you claimed Christianity has attacked Islam. Doesn't sound like much peace there you moron!  


14 Feb 2006 @ 13:17 by Bad @194.137.146.135 : Religions
There is quite a lot different religions. How do I know whitch is the right one? Well, I guess god only knows.  


14 Feb 2006 @ 17:14 by ANOTHER WTF>>> @194.203.13.71 : Assimilation
Islam = Borg.  


14 Feb 2006 @ 22:03 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : borg
damn you got that right Islam=Borg. LMAO, good one.  


15 Feb 2006 @ 13:31 by Emilia @194.255.40.2 : Can't sleep at night
Dear Muslims.. Do you actually think the Danish government, or the newpaper who brought the cartoons, told all 5 millions Danish to vote on these drawings? NO we didnt! We had no choice..

I'm babysitting some small girls, and they can't sleep at night because when they sleep, they have nightmares about muslims killing there mothers, and burning down their house.. Is that what Allah wants?
Then i'm glad i don't have a religion!

Did world war 3 start when Monthy Python made "Life of Brian"? With the jews or christians? NO, I don't think so?!?

JP should NEVER have sended out those drawings, I agree with that.
But you just go on doing what your governments tell you to do.

It is MORE than some drawings now! It was just the water that went over to bottle now! Some of the Muslims country's only use this as an exquise(not spelled right, I know) to cover over for what they are doing. Some countries use it, so their governments can be elected.

What a great religion.. Kill eachother, cover womens and chose with whom they should marry, scare kids, beat up kids on a danish school, but cant take an exquise(the word again) about a drawing.  



15 Feb 2006 @ 19:22 by Mohammed of Isreal @70.152.164.86 : Mohammed the great dickhead
I am the great mohammy the mohammed ball licker. Worship my butthole you towelheads!  


15 Feb 2006 @ 20:54 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : mohammed of israel
hey man, mohammed is not from israel. he's from mecca i think. but you're probably just some young stupid kid. hmmmm?  


16 Feb 2006 @ 02:09 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Wtf Dude CHill out
I haven't followed up on this story of British troops shooting at kids throwing rocks, but it seems to me that a gun against a rock is not a fair fight, unless these kids were hurling boulders. I think stun guns and tear gas would have been sufficient to calm and control the situation. Of course, one can understand that the stress of war tends to make soldiers a bit too triggerhappy.  


16 Feb 2006 @ 02:27 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Johnnyboy
I believe the true purpose of the crusades was an economic one: Israel/Palestine is ideally situated on the Mediterranean and had access to the spice routes between Europe and India. Of course, it is true that Islam has attacked local religions and tried to force their way onto the local invaded populace. This happened when the arabs forced the Persians to abandon their ancient faith (probably one of the oldest faiths) of Zoroastrianism or face persecution. They probably did that, because they (like most religious extremist) believe (incorrectly) that the more people believe in their lies, the more true it would be. There also is the need to control the people by making them fear God. But Christianity has also attacked other religions and entire civilizations were eradicated in the name of God. That is how Hernan Cortez invaded the Aztec Empire and literally, either massacred or enslaved, thousands of men,women and children. And all that for Gold!! Truth of the matter is (and I have said it before), religion is too dangerous, because the line between moderation and extremism is ultra thin. And by moderation, I mean those who would preach love, peace and compassion only, much like the historical Jesus must have done. Any other deviation from this (such as believing in prophecies and the divinity of mere mortals or other irrational ideas) is an open door to extremism (the whole "my prophet (or my book) is more divine and powerful than yours" crap). In today's world it seems that we are being choked by religion on all sides; from the ultra-conservative Bushies to the fanatical Muslims to the super-orthodox Jewish settlers. What a nightmare!  


16 Feb 2006 @ 02:44 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Cartoons
For people to get all violent, because of cartoons that, in my opinion, are not that shocking to begin with, is absolutely hilarious. Here we have a group of people who are insulted, because some book tells them that they should venerate a human being, but not draw pictures of him. This whole, "We are offended, because if you draw Mohammed, then his image will be used for idolatry" does not make sense. Idolatry in itself means (cf Webster) 1 : the worship of a physical object as a god 2 : immoderate attachment or devotion to something (in this case someone). Evidently a human being is a physical object. Therefore, simply venerating someone (like Mohammed or Jesus as a God)is idolatry: it means elevating a human being to the status of an idol. This whole worshipping of someone you don't know and can't judge for yourself is really creepy. Imagine if Mohammed or Jesus were in reality thugs or charlatans. Then look at all the people who say "Peace be upon him", when they don't have a clue as to what kind of a person he was. Or better yet, look at all the extreme shiites who venerate Khomeini; that sick FUCK! In two hundred years, I am sure people will say "Peace be upon our beloved Khomeini" to that murderer. One can also bring up the famous Mr. Moon and his cult. Obviously the idiot believes he is the Messiah; and people give all their money to him and worship him. Now that's a brillant plan. I wish I had time on my hands to make myself a prophet; I would be rich!!  


16 Feb 2006 @ 03:07 by vibrani : And three days in a row
in PAKISTAN there is still rioting and murders - young child killed in those. It's insane. There is no reason for this. The cartoons - those were already well in the past. I think they just like to go crazy for ANY reason, and have no other outlets in their rigid religious societies.

Yes, Cyrus, polarities are increasing exactly - I think it's so people really face their beliefs and maybe, with any luck, reconsider them and what these beliefs have done.  



16 Feb 2006 @ 07:28 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Cyrus
No, it was about these kids Throwing Rocks at British soldiers, and the soldiers got fed up so they all Ran and grabbed on too some of those Rascals and Gave them a spanking for a bit, and it was caught on Camera, it wasent even that bad of a beating, Ive gotten beat up Far worse than that, that shit is bull shit. STUPID KIDS WERE LOOKING FOR TROUBLE!! IF YOU DONT WANT TROUBLE DONT CHUCK A ROCK AT A SOLDIER  


16 Feb 2006 @ 13:41 by ::Hakan:: @85.108.185.247 : Hz. Mohammed(sav) and Islam
You always keep saying that that Hz. Muhammed is the God of Islam. He is not. He is the messenger of God, the prophet who is followed by millions. You can make fun of something but it is the sacred values that people care then you have see that the fact it is important for somebody. It is the basic idea lying behind the idea of humanism and the cultures behaving like the follower of that thoughts you must consider these am I wrong ???  


16 Feb 2006 @ 15:45 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.190 : Questions
Can I ask some questions?
Why is anyone who draws cartoons doubting the holocust in Europe is prosecuted even it is a matter of a simple cartoon as far as free speech is the dominant? Why are you careful not to hurt the feelings of 1 country that contains afew million jewish out of 190 countries and feel free to hurt 1 billion and a half Muslims?Why you insist that cartoonists didn't mean to hurt Muslims even though they are not stupid not expecting angry reactions?

Why you take 10% of the angry reactions which contained violence as an example showing how Muslims are over-reacting and didn't consider the other 90% peaceful reactions(Boycott) and in the same time you are angry of us convicting the whole Denmark for what a newspaper did?Don't you see you are doing the same action?



Please answer my questions.I need convincing answers.  



16 Feb 2006 @ 16:00 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.190 : Another question
Ah, another question for atheists whose psychology is Un-understandable to me,
Can you read this page I wrote and clarify your way of thinking?
[link]


P.S to Cyrus : The angry reactions weren't because Mohammed was pictured,It was because Mohamed was being made fun of.
picturing Mohammed was done by many Muslims and history shows many protraits of him ( even though some may disagree on that but this is not the point).  



16 Feb 2006 @ 19:22 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Hanan Taha
Oh is that so? Because I heard from numerous sources that the offence was due to the idolatry issue. If that isn't the case, then I still think these reactions are overblown. After all, the media makes fun of everyone and everything including Jesus, Moses etc.... Politicians are mocked regularly and they don't go berserk over it. And what about all the jokes in regards to other religious figures?? As far as the Holocaust goes, I agree that the censorship in Europe and the US is ridiculous. If you even say something against Israel, but you love the Jews, then you are considered antisemite regardless. As Nelson Mandela once said, "If being against Israel is antisemitic, then I am antisemitic". Let us not blur the lines between a country, its politics (Israel) and the people (Jews). The same can be said of any other country: the government and its policies don't necessarily represent the views of the people. Just look at the US, where at least 50% hate Bush and his policies.  


16 Feb 2006 @ 21:14 by vibrani : No
it's still about prejudice - why do you ALWAYS have to bring up the Jews, complain about the Jews, compare yourselves to the Jews? Why are the Jews such a huge threat? May I remind you again to look at a map - the Jewish people are a minority in the world, and certain in the Middle East. When are you going to leave the Jews alone and take care of your own problems? And Hanan, if YOU don't know the difference, that's the problem.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 00:00 by Dane @83.91.18.2 : Stop hatespeech
Dear Muslims

I feel very sorry for all that has happened since the release of these cartoons. In the beginning I saw no problem in them, since we are used to things like that in my country, now I understand that many people have been hurt.

The laws in my country limits freedom of speech/expression when it comes to hatespeech, for instance racism or encouragement to violence or war (I see many posts here from westernes that I think would be illegal in denmark). It is now being tested in the legalsystem if the newpaper is guilty in such a crime.

We don´t “behead” anyone in my country, we don´t have deathpenalty for any crime. The violent demonstrations give the islamophobic powers in europe exactly what they need, because they scare people. Show the world the peacefull face of islam. Let´s try to bridge the troubled waters.

Please visit the page www.anotherdenmark.org  



17 Feb 2006 @ 00:30 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Not a Threat
Sorry, but if this is your answer to my post, then obviously you haven't read it properly. I am not attacking the Jews; hell, many of my friends are Jews. I have absolutely nothing against them. However, the policies used by the state of Israel in dealing with the Palestinians is not always "kosher". The Palestinians were pushed out of their homes in many instances to make way for settlers. What I am driving it, is that being against the policies of a state such as Israel, as far as dealing with the Palestinians, does not make one antisemitic. Actually both the Palestinians and the Israelis have valid arguments for living in the land:

1. The Palestinians claim they had their land taken from them, which is true. And what was proposed to them (which they refused) was a partition of their country into two fragments, one going to them, the other to the Israelis.

2. The Israelis have a valid argument, since throughout history they have been persecuted in most of the countries they have lived in. Therefore, having their own country would insure their safety, whereas living in another country would put them at risk (who knows when another Hitler will come along).

The problem is that fear of persecution has led many Jews to seek a country all to their own. Of course, this is not possible, since the Palestinians are also living in the land. Any partition of the land will surely cause other problems. The only real sustainable solution would be for the younger generation of Israelis and Palestinians to be taught to live with one another and share ONE country in the future. Of course, the way things are going, that's just wishful thinking. As far as the Holocaust goes, even though it did occur and even though it was a horrible injustice, it is by far, not the only injustice that has been committed. After the Holocaust, here are a couple of genocides that we rarely mention:

1. Death of millions of Russians at the hands of Stalin due to famine and other
2. Death of 1 billion, mostly due to famine, during the Cultural Revolution of Mao
3. Genocide in Rwanda, totally ignored by the rest of the world (as the excellent film "Hotel Rwanda" shows, the Western "Civilized" world who so ardently talks about human rights and says that the Holocaust should never happen again did NOT intervene, and actually left the country)
4. The current situation in Darfour, Sudan
5. The regime of Pol Pot and the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge.

And countless other genocides and killings that we rarely talk about. On the other hand, in Europe, the events of the Holocaust are repeated non-stop. It has come to a point where it's becoming an old scratched record stuck on "repeat". My point is: Out of respect for all peoples that have suffered in recent memory, one should refrain from insisting that the gravest injustice done was the one perpetrated during the Holocaust. And this coming from a government who has demolished Palestinian homes and destroyed many Palestinian lives. Of course as they say, " The victim, sometimes due to psychological trauma, turns into the perpetrator".  



17 Feb 2006 @ 00:38 by vibrani : 10% of Muslims rioting and killing?
Here are some real stats: If it is somehow a fact that only 10% of Muslims are rioting, destroying and killing, that means it's not mere fragment of the population. It's more like 100 million! Wow, doesn't that make us feel better? Whew, for a minute there I thought there was nothing to be concerned about! (not) There are just over 6 million Jews in Israel. Who's the biggest threat?

[link]

World Muslims...............................................1,482,596,925 (1996)

Muslims in Asia.............................................1,022,692,000 (1996)

Muslims in Africa.......................................... 426,282,000 (1996)

Total World population.................................. 5,771,939,007 (1996)

% of Muslims................................................ 26% (1996)

Islam annual growth rate (94-95)..........................6.40% (from U.N.)

Christianity growth rate (94-95)............................1.46% (from U.N.)

World Muslim population (1998)...........................1,678,442,000

World Muslim population (Projected in 2000).......1,902,095,000

Growth of Islam:

North America (1989-1998)....................... 25%

Africa........................................................... 2.15%

Asia.............................................................12.57%

Europe..................................................... 142.35%

Latin America.............................................. 4.73%

Australia.................................................. 257.01%

________________________



Among every four humans in the world, one of them is a Muslim.

Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion.

By comparison,

Christians have increased by only 47 percent.

Hinduism, 117 percent and

Buddhism by 63 percent.

Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and the US (Muslims in the US are ten million and Jews are six million)  



17 Feb 2006 @ 00:44 by vibrani : Cyrus
There were no Palestinians until the 1960s when Arafat coined the phrase for "his people" and created the myth. There was never a Palestinian language, culture, food, borders, country, organized government before the 1960s. Before then they were just Arabs, many of them bedouin, nomadic. Not many lived permanently in Israel proper. Some did have homes and some still live there - others left BY CHOICE. THE ONLY CONSISTENT POPULATION IN ISRAEL HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE JEWS. Many people need to relearn history of the Middle East - they've bought into the lie. Read about how Great Britain largely created the problems in the region. Trans-Jordan illegally occupied lands - and NOT ONE ARAB OR MUSLIM BITCHED ABOUT IT! Then there are those made up royals in the Middle East - tribal shit. It's all bullshit. [link] Until people get real and talk about the truth of the area, we can't get anywhere different. Thing is,most Muslims DO NOT EVER want to talk about the truth because 1) they're in denial and need to perpetuate the myth for political/religions agendas to feel superior or that they're victims; or 2) They believe the lies they've been taught.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 01:14 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Palestine?
If Arafat coined the phrase Palestinian in the 1960's, why is it that the country was called Palestine before being renamed Israel? I never denied that the Jews lived there. However, most of my knowledge comes from history lessons in Switzerland (I grew up there from age 13 to 25) and I recall many notes in regards to the Balfour treaty and how Theodor Herzl founded the zionist movement and illegally helped the immigration of the Jewish population before World War II. Actually from my recollection, and I might be wrong, Jews and Arabs coexisted in Palestine. Herzl was the first one to see that the Jewish population should overrun the arabs, once Palestine had freed itself from the grip of the Ottoman Empire. One the Ottoman Empire disintegrated, the British decided to allow a certain quota as far as the number of Jews allowed to immigrate to Palestine, probably to avoid favoring the Jewish population more than the Arabs ( and vice versa). After World War II, it became logical to allow a traumatized and scared Jewish population to immigrate heavily into Palestine from Europe. This, of course worked to Herzl's advantage, but placed the Arab population at a distinct disadvantage number-wise. I guess from there on out, the Jewish population took over the country. Of course, the Jewish population that lived in Palestine before the massive immigration were and are, in my opinion, the only REAL Jews (racially and historically speaking): the Sefevide (or Asian Jews). The Ashkenaze (that heavily immigrated into Palestine and counted amongst them Herzl) are from southern Russia and CONVERTED to Judaism. So it seems that the Sefevide Jews and the Arabs co-inhabited in Palestine for a long time, before the Ashkenaze came along and spoilt everything!  


17 Feb 2006 @ 01:57 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : to vibrani & Cyrus
Please Note: The terms B.C. (Before Christ or Before the Christian Era) and A.D.("Anno Domini" Latin for "In the Year of Our Lord") have been replaced with B.C.E (Before Common, or Christian, Era) and C.E. (Common, or Christian, Era) so as to respect all visitors to this site. The terms are interchangeable and both are based upon the Gregorian Calendar.


These and other questions will be addressed more fully as you go through this website. However, there is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now. There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world! There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the West Bank [Judea and Samaria] and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the "Palestinian" people, Yasser Arafat, is EGYPTIAN! In short, the so-called Arab "Palestinians" are a manufactured people...a people with no history and no authenticity... whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the Jewish State!

Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 B.C.E. these first ancient Jews in the Land of Israel [Judea] were overrun and Israel's First Jewish Temple (on Jerusalem's Old City Temple Mount) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem upon the Temple Mount. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the Arabs is preposterous!



Then in 70 C.E. (nearly 2000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire's turn to march through ancient Israel and destroy the SECOND Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of its Jewish population. Many Jews left on their own because conditions for life were made unbearable in many respects... yet thousands upon thousands stayed and rebelled on for centuries in order to once again rebuild a Jewish Nation in this Holy Land.

Over 3250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews [Jews], Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward, neglected territory from the 16th century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948. None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own... EXCEPT the Jews!

It must be noted that in 636 C.E., when the Arabs marauders came to the land and uprooted even more of its Jews, they did not form any Arab nation there... and certainly not a "Palestinian" nation. They were simply "Arabs" who, as did others before them, moved into a geo-political area called "Palestine!" And remember this one fact... it was not the Jews who "usurped" (a favorite word from the Arab propagandists) the land from the Arabs. If anything, it was the Arabs in 636 C.E. who overran and stole it from the Jews!

In Conclusion:

No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs --- and their Islam --- were even born! The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts... all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continual presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certain dwarfs any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Jews have. And if you want to talk religion, fine. G-d GAVE the Land of Israel to the Jewish People. And G-d does nothing by accident!  



17 Feb 2006 @ 01:58 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : vibrani & Cyrus
"PALESTINE?"

The term "Palestine" came from the name that the conquering Roman Empire gave the ancient Land of Israel in an attempt to obliterate and de-legitimize the Jewish presence in the Holy Land. The name "Palestine" was invented in the year 135 C.E. Before it was known as Judea, which was the southern kingdom of ancient Israel. The Roman Procurator in charge of the Judean-Israel territories was so angry at the Jews for revolting that he called for his historians and asked them who were the worst enemies of the Jews in their past history. The scribes said, "the Philistines." Thus, the Procurator declared that Land of Israel would from then forward be called "Philistia" [further bastardized into "Palaistina"] to dishonor the Jews and obliterate their history. Hence the name "Palestine."

One more thing. Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists finding ancient historical links between the "Philistines" ("Invaders" in Hebrew) and the Arab "Palestinians." There is no truth to this claim! The Philistines were one of a number of Sea Peoples who reached the eastern Mediterranean region approximately 1250-1100 B.C.E. They were actually an amalgamation of various ethnic groups, primarily of Aegean and south-east European origin [Greece, Crete and Western Turkey] and they died out over 2500 years ago! Those Philistines were not Arab... and neither was Goliath! The Arabs of "Palestine" are just that... Arabs! And these Arabs of "Palestine" have about as much historical roots to the ancient Philistines as Yasser Arafat has to the Eskimos!

The ancient, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine are long perished from the earth. Canaanites, Phoencians, and then Philistines, all were dominated by the Israelites before 1060 B.C.E. Most of these cultural identities dissolved completely by the neo-Babylonian age, or, the 6th century B.C.E. Arabs weren’t even in Palestine until the mid-7th century C.E., over a thousand years later, after Palestine’s 1,300-year Jewish history. Arabs later living in Palestine never developed themselves or the land, but remained nomadic and quasi-primitive

Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews. In the years leading up to the rebirth of Israel in 1948, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were nearly always referring to the region's Jewish residents. For example, the "Palestine Post" [forerunner of today's Jerusalem Post] newspaper and the Palestine Symphony Orchestra were all-Jewish. The "Palestine Brigade Regiment" was composed exclusively of Jewish volunteers in the British World War II Army. In fact, Arab leaders rejected the notion of a unique "Palestinian Arab" identity, insisting that Palestine was merely a part of "Greater Syria."  



17 Feb 2006 @ 02:01 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : vibrani & Cyrus
AS AN AMERICAN, I SAY GOD BLESS ISRAEL!! THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE SHOULDENT HAVE SIDED WITH HITLER!! [link] NOW THEY SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES, ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO LIVE!! AND THEY HAVE MY SUPPORT!!!  


17 Feb 2006 @ 02:12 by vibrani : WtfDude
Yup - that's right. Thanks for your post saying it like it is. The name came from the Romans. The modern day term "Palestinian" is a myth when it comes to the Arabs, all fabricated to make the Arabs believe in something. It's really mostly because of Arafat's personal hate trip, and you need to understand his up-bringing to see how this developed. He was a very crazy man and idolized Hitler. It was Arafat's dream to be the Muslim's savior and create a modern empire for the Muslims.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 02:21 by vibrani : Cyrus
the word is Sephardic - Jews of Oriental origin. That means the Middle East that later migrated to Spain and other countries in Europe.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 02:28 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Wow
No problem Bro.

[link] I suggest you watch this too. Shahids, what els do i not know?  



17 Feb 2006 @ 02:30 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : wow
In the video you get to see arafat aprove of it too and encouraging kids to do it [link]  


17 Feb 2006 @ 02:32 by vibrani : Of course
he brainwashed generations to believe the lies about Israel
and the Jews, and the Muslim people, he manipulated all of
them into believing the greatest thing they could do was to
kill "infidels" in the name of Allah and they will be rewarded
in heaven. With horny teens with no sex allowed in Islam,
sure was an easy way to convince them, eh? Why is it that
none of the leaders ever jumped in to sacrifice themselves?
Arafat always said the greatest thing for him would be to
die for his cause. Then why didn't he blow himself up?
They have to use children! To see little children the age
of 4 idolize Arafat and blood and death to the Jews for stealing
"their land" and to commit suicide for this -
tell me this isn't sick! But look how many in the world
believe this lie today. It is a culture of lies, hate,
murder, denial, manipulation. To brainwash mothers to
have many children and then sacrifice them in the name
of lies and that it's okay, it's holy! It is the most
backward, upside down culture in the world and they do
not deserve to be legitimized or supported in any way.
Israel sings songs of peace while the Palestinians sing
songs of murdering Jews. Now you tell me why people think
Israel doesn't give enough for peace after land it gave,
kicking its own people out of their homes for the Palestinians,
giving land it gained in wars waged against Israel
(wars Israel didn't start); why Israel should give these creatures
what they want; why Israel is always condemned for protecting
itself.

Once in a great while, someone feels that they are
doing something wrong in preparing to blow themselves
and others up and they choose to turn themselves in
and not go through with it. Somehow they paid attention
to their conscience, even if it means jail for them.

WTFdude - thank you for having the guts and an open mind to investigate this on your own.  



17 Feb 2006 @ 03:39 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Ottoman Empire siding with Hitler???
Get your history right: the Ottoman Empire disappeared after World War I (1918); the Ottoman Empire sided with the Germany of Kaiser Wilhelm II during World War I. Hitler at the time was only a soldier. Hitler became chancellor of Germany (democratically I should add) in 1933, long after the Ottoman Empire had disappeared. In fact, this is the time of Ataturk the founder of modern Turkey; Turkey was neutral during World War II. As for your history of Israel, I'll look into it more closely, since I admit I am a bit rusty on that part of history. However, I do insist that a difference should be made between the historical Jews (Asian Jews) and the Askanazi, who merely converted to Judaism, and who as inhabitants of southern Russia, have absolutely nothing to do with the historical Jews. And I must say I don't understand what being American has to do with supporting Israel: so you support Israeli Mossad secret agents that spy on the United States (cause they do)?  


17 Feb 2006 @ 03:41 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Vibrani
My bad; Sephardic. Thank you.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 04:15 by vibrani : Sure
also - if the Muslims really give a damn about other Muslims, why aren't they all offering to give their vast expanses of empty land to the "Palestinians?" Do you know that Jordan's King Hussein offered Arafat a major government minister position if Arafat would stop this crap with Israel and Arafat refused. He refused to help his people - he also stole billions from the people for his selfish purposes. And they blame Israel.

I wasn't talking about Hitler in the Ottoman Empire. Where do you get that from? I said that Arafat idolized Hitler.

Why are you calling Judaism a race and why do you have to differentiate? This isn't the Middle Ages. BUT, in a way you can say that all Jews and even Christians and Catholics (since that arose from Judaism) are descendants of the "original 12 tribes" - and that has been proven genetically through four female ancestors. Are you a Christian because you were born from Christian parents, or because you choose to be one? People intermarry and often choose their religion as adults.  



17 Feb 2006 @ 04:30 by vibrani : P.S.
Did you know that the Al Qaeda employment contract says that men with more wives get more money? Of course, those in Al Qaeda have to swear to secrecy and live for Jihad.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 05:03 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : The Irony
The Ottoman Empire remark was in regards to Wtf Dude CHill out's earlier post. I did not define Judaism as a race at all. I was trying to say that the Sephardic Jews are the ones referred to in the bible (as a people), not the Ashkanazi who were Russians that converted to Judaism (the religion).

However, in all honesty and biologically speaking, it is very likely that the majority of mankind is ethnically Jewish, Arab, Indo-European, Mongolian (turkish) and whatnot, since thousands of years of human mingling has occurred in Europe and the Middle East. I once found the website of a danish man , who could prove that he was the descendant of Muhammed, Moses, Jesus, Cyrus The Great, Alexander the Great, Gengis Khan, Charlemagne, Charles Martel and many others. And this through royal European lineage!!!! To tell you the truth, in the end, we probably all are descendants of these people and many others! Imagine if 'Wtf Dude CHill out' (just a suggestion; you may insert anyone's name here) was a descendant of one of the arab followers of Muhammed who came out of his desert to invade much of the civilized world. The follower might have married a Spanish woman, whose children went on to marry Nordic Europeans in such a way that 'Wtf Dude CHill out' would look nothing like the arab in his lineage. Imagine us insulting and hating one of our biological ancestors. Ah, the Irony!!  



17 Feb 2006 @ 05:12 by vibrani : That is THE point!
If you knew my lineage you'd also see that I don't look like most of it. But it's still in the DNA. That is what I meant that if people understood that when they hurt someone else they are hurting themselves. We are all connected, all related, all from the Source. Not to realize this is being in an illusion, and for this illusion all of humanity and the planet are in serious jeopardy. And then throw in that silly cartoon! What is happening seems to be a religious war, but it's more than that - it's about the level of consciousness on this planet that needs to shift.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 06:47 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : hehehe cyrus the virus
I dont understand Cyrus, what are you trying to prove?

And I must say I don't understand what being American has to do with supporting Israel: so you support Israeli Mossad secret agents that spy on the United States (cause they do)?

I wouldent mind, they have a reson to be paranoid, Israel is slowly getting smaller and smaller and now they have this ass hole from Iran threatning them, its them against the whole world, After all it isnt the jews who flew the Planes into the World Trade center, it isnt the jews who are chucking fire Bombs into embasies over these stupid looking cartoons, It isnt the jews who Stabbed Theo VanGogh to death over a stupid documentary, It isnt the jews who are beaheading people [link] , Are you telling me I should be afraid of the jews? The jews are the last thing My country needs to worry about, as far as I know they are our 100% allies, they are suffering just like us against this barberic enemy, Oh and I forgot about HAMAS [link] YES HAMAS LOOKS VERY PEACEFULL, DRESSING UP THEIR KIDS IN ARMY CAMMO AND EQUIPING THEM WITH AK 47's AND CHANTING DEATH TO AMERICA :) , Ooooo its Peacefull for sure :) , Ill tell you this Ive done alot of reasearch on both sides, and I vouch for Israel.

http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=906# [link]

Its all good Vibrani I understand. :)  



17 Feb 2006 @ 06:53 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Cyrus
http://memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=57  


17 Feb 2006 @ 11:57 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.35 : Hey Hey !!
I can't believe what's going on here...
I asked afew questions about the cartoons situation and I find people chit-chatting about Israel.
Can't you be more organized? if you want to chit-chat about Israel,go and start another post about it.
Now, Answer my questions plz...I want direct and clear answers because they will be the key to end this post...and don't revolve around the truth...be direct and don't make me feel you are escaping it !!  



17 Feb 2006 @ 12:09 by Nobody @80.164.65.4 : where is the sane people
this has gone to far to demand a apolligy from alot of prople (a whole country) that didn´t offend anyone is just a offensive as the drawings, i don´t expect all of a country to say sorry caurse someone in that country spoke ill about my country, Jyllands posted said sorry, i don´t see what more there is to do, i am simply don´t understand the logic, what more people want. I got muslim friends here they don´t understand it anymore than i do. I can accept that they choose not to trade with Denmark, even though i dun see how it is fair, Denmark has clearly said they have nothing to do with the drawings, it was a privat newspaper, and yett some muslim countrys goes out and boycot Denmark, seems unfair to blame the whole country. What theise countrys are doing are way worse than jyllands posten drawings, Jyllands posten is a privat newspaper, by making a trade boycot it´s the countrys official standing. Seems like the sane part of the world just left us  


17 Feb 2006 @ 13:38 by Dane @83.91.18.2 : to hanan
Why is anyone who draws cartoons doubting the holocust in Europe is prosecuted even it is a matter of a simple cartoon as far as free speech is the dominant?

Holocaustdenial is legal in denmark, but illegal in some european contries e.g. Germany and Austria. You´re also free to claim the napoleon wars never took place, I just don´t see the point. here are some links to the Holocaust:

[link] http://www.mengele.dk/

to criticize the politics of the state of Israel is good and nessecary, but if muslims keep going on about holocaust not taking place very few people will take it seriously.

Why are you careful not to hurt the feelings of 1 country that contains afew million jewish out of 190 countries and feel free to hurt 1 billion and a half Muslims?

is it ok to mock a religion just because not so many people believe in it?

Why you insist that cartoonists didn't mean to hurt Muslims even though they are not stupid not expecting angry reactions?

I can´t read the minds of those cartoonists, but I think they had no idea how far this would go, we are very used to political and religious satire here.

Why you take 10% of the angry reactions which contained violence as an example showing how Muslims are over-reacting and didn't consider the other 90% peaceful reactions(Boycott) and in the same time you are angry of us convicting the whole Denmark for what a newspaper did?Don't you see you are doing the same action?

I hope that less than 10% of muslims feel that violence is a good reponse to cartoons.

as for the religious question I can only say that you´re a muslim and i´m agnostic and in order for different beliefs to exist peacefully side by side in a society, the seperation of religion and state should be total, but there should be laws protecting religions, which there are in Denmark, they are just not very strict.

cheers  



17 Feb 2006 @ 17:22 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Nobody
Thank you Nobodey Im very glad you see it that way :)
I am sorry if i have offended you in my earlier posts, Like i said before, My posts only go out to those who want death and destruction.  



17 Feb 2006 @ 18:32 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.118 : .......
Dane > Thank you...You made some good points...
My question about afew jews and many muslims was directed to say : as far as Europe considers the feelings of jews,it must also consider the feelings of muslims.

Nobody > You are right by not convicting whole Denmark by what a newspaper said , but what happened is that Muslims were angry because The Danish prime minister didn't bother to meet their embassadors to discuss the situation and that was very provocative specially when JP republished the cartoons again.Got my point?

Finally, I agree that this whole thing must be put to an end...the boycott must stop,muslims and Europeans must have serious attempts to recommunicate.
Maybe the cartoons experience was harsh to both sides,but maybe it will be a start to real good relationships between Europe and Middle East...Let's hope so.  



17 Feb 2006 @ 18:36 by vibrani : Taha
You are one-sided, Hanan. You are only concerned about how Muslims are treated, not how anyone else is treated. I haven't seen you renounce Muslims who murder people then celebrate it. A Pakistani cleric announced a $1 million bounty for killing a cartoonist who drew the Prophet Muhammad caricatures, as thousands rallied across the country Friday and authorities arrested scores of protesters. Just A LITTLE extreme! I haven't seen you condemn those who deny the Holocaust existed.

[AP]Study Reveals German Bank's Nazi Past
Friday, February 17, 2006

BERLIN — Germany's Dresdner Bank AG financed Nazi arms makers and owned a stake in a company that built crematoriums at the Auschwitz concentration camp, authors of a bank-commissioned study said Friday.

The 2,400-page, four-volume study is the result of seven years of work by a team of historians who scoured a huge number of the bank's files to detail its involvement with Adolf Hitler's regime before and during World War II.

The report "calls things by their proper names, and we accept these truths, even if they are painful," Wulf Meier, a member of the bank's management board, said at a news conference in Berlin.

Dresdner Bank, which was government-owned during the early years of the Nazi regime in the 1930s and remained under strong government influence after it passed back into private hands in 1937, was long known to have done business with the Nazi government — as did German big business in general.

Now a part of German insurer Allianz AG, it is the country's third-largest bank and does business in 50 countries.

What emerged from the study, the historians said, is that Dresdner was a part owner of Huta Hoch- und Tiefbau AG, a Breslau-based construction firm that built the crematoriums used to dispose of bodies at the Auschwitz death camp in occupied Poland.

Some 1.5 million people, most of them Jews, died at the camp from gassing, shooting, hanging, beating, starvation, disease or mistreatment.

According to Johannes Baehr, an economic historian at the Free University of Berlin, it was "the most extensive involvement by a bank in an accomplice firm in Auschwitz."

The company also financed Nazi arms plants and did extensive business with Nazi occupation authorities in Eastern Europe, for example in Czechoslovakia, Poland and Ukraine.

Two top bank executives, Emil Meyer and Karl Rasche, were members of Hitler's SS, or Schutzstaffel, a paramilitary organization whose involvement in Nazi crimes included running concentration camps.

The report said the majority of the bank's top managers were not Nazi Party members but nonetheless sought to take advantage of the business opportunities presented by close cooperation with the regime.

Meyer committed suicide at the end of the war in 1945 and Rasche was sentenced to seven years in prison by the Nuremberg war crimes tribunal for his activities.

The bank commissioned the study itself in 1997 amid public debate about the role of German big business during the Nazi era.

Dresdner Bank said it gave the scholars a free hand to probe the bank's archives and reveal what they found.

The bank was one of the business contributors to a 5.1 billion euro ($6 billion) business-government fund that began paying out compensation in 2001 to people forced to work as slave laborers to the Nazis.

Dresdner Bank's Meier said the bank would conduct internal discussions about any further steps today's bank needed to make in response to the findings.  



17 Feb 2006 @ 20:31 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Number of Protesters
It should be noted, to Hanan's benefit, that those that protested and voiced outrage are exactly that: outrageous and outrageously small in number. I heard that only 400 people protested in Teheran (a city of 15 million people). 400 people!!! That's smaller than the population of a small village in Iran. In reality the 400 nuts that hurled Molotov cocktails and whatnot at the Danish embassy are part of the Basij paramilitary force. They are veterans of the Iran-Iraq war ( and therefore a minority since 70% of the population is less than 25), like Ahmadinejad (or Ahmadigedah (meaning the beggar)), who have been so brainwashed into Islam, so gone, so out there, that it's hopeless even reasoning with them. Actually, these same wackos would regularly beat up the younger generation when they would demonstrate in the streets against the regime or even when they would gather in places in order to flirt with each other; so sad. When Iran lost the 2002 final qualifying soccer match against Bahrain over allegations of widespread irregularities ( apparently some players accepted money to lose), the kids started a riot, with funny and slanderous comments directed towards the regime (in Persian):

"Toop, Tank, Feshfeshe, Akhounde-mah Kosskeshe"=
"Cannon balls, tanks, rockets, our Mullahs are pimps"

"Rahbareh-ma alaghe, yek dastesh shologhe"=
"Our Supreme Leader (Khameini)is an idiot, one of his hands is maimed (from an explosion)"

Here's an account of some of Ahmadinejad's latest strange habits:

When he was mayor of Teheran, the now president had a curtain installed in the elevators of City Hall in order to seperate the men from the women. Once elected president, he started a rather curious habit. He would comb his hair in such a way that a large separation line would split his oh-so beautiful head into two sections. When asked why he was making such an effort to look "good", he answered, "Oh. Well, I have to insure a total separation between the female and male lice inhabiting my mane"!!


I am sure the female side was twice as small in area than the male side!

Jokes set aside, I think we should take this president for what he is: a demagogue. He doesn't have the balls or the faith to do anything against Israel (thank God!). His "wipe Israel off the map" jargon is just speech coming out of the mouth of a hotheaded lunatic seeking ATTENTION. Evidently, even such a fanatical Muslim would never dare touch Jerusalem, since the city contains the second (or third?) HOLIEST PLACE IN ISLAM ( a religion he would die for). If he destroyed that mosque, everybody would be after his head.  



17 Feb 2006 @ 22:36 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Ahmadinejad = thug in chief
Thats bull shit Cyrus, I heard more. Plus its not only happening in Tehran Its happning all over the place, Peacefull and Violent, Mostly Violent, and it hasent stopped yet, Stop making it sound like a little problem you ass hole because its much bigger than TEHRAN.

On returning to Iran from New York, Mr. Ahmadinejad recalled the effect of his U.N. speech:

one in our group told me that when I started to say "In the name of God the almighty and merciful," he saw a light around me, and I was placed inside this aura. I felt it myself. I felt the atmosphere suddenly change, and for those 27 or 28 minutes, the leaders of the world did not blink. … And they were rapt. It seemed as if a hand was holding them there and had opened their eyes to receive the message from the Islamic republic(OK WTF). The most remarkable aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's piety is his devotion to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president's belief that his government must prepare the country for his return.
One of the first acts of Mr Ahmadinejad's government was to donate about £10 million to the Jamkaran mosque, a popular pilgrimage site where the pious come to drop messages to the Hidden Imam into a holy well.
All streams of Islam believe in a divine saviour, known as the Mahdi, who will appear at the End of Days. A common rumour - denied by the government but widely believed - is that Mr Ahmadinejad and his cabinet have signed a "contract" pledging themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi and sent it to Jamkaran.

OK IF YOU ASK ME HES GONE A LITTLE OUT OF THE BOX THAT WE CALL LUNATIC, by the way your not a Prophet ass hole you cant predict how Capable he is in destroying The United states Or israel, or Europe, I have watched the president of iran Like a hawk I have seen what hes up too, hes acting a little strange if you ask me, Buying State of the art Missiles from Russia capable of hitting Europe or israel, Breaking the pact Not to enrich Uranium, hes GONE TOO FAR!!

Ahmadinejad = thug in cheif  



17 Feb 2006 @ 22:42 by vibrani : Right now
Eleven die in protests against Mohammed cartoons outside Italian interests in Libya, Italian officials tells CNN.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 22:51 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : YEap
Yeap, what a shame, 11 people had to die for the cartoons :) sounds fair to me lets call it EVEN!!  


17 Feb 2006 @ 23:05 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Wow ...wtf again
Cleric offers reward for killing Prophet cartoonist
17/02/2006 - 11:12:51

A Pakistani cleric offered a 1.5 million rupee (€28,000) reward and a car for anyone who kills the cartoonist who drew Prophet Mohammed.

Another Islamist leader was put under house detention, amid fears of more deadly demonstrations today, officials said.

The cleric did not name the cartoonist, and several cartoonists submitted images to the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, which first published them.

Thousands of security forces were deployed across Pakistan to prevent unrest.

Police arrested 125 protesters for violating a ban on rallies in eastern Pakistan and arrested 30 others after firing tear gas to disperse a protest in the southern city of Karachi. LOL ok it has gone too far... first they demanded an apology now they resort to murder. Jyllands Post...good luck :(  



17 Feb 2006 @ 23:11 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To: Wtf Dude CHill out
Thanks for calling me an asshole. I hope you at least liked the jokes. In response to your post, I was only mentioning the protests in Iran, not the rest of the world. I am simply pointing out that the people who are demonstrating in Iran are a minority of fanatics. The general populace probably doesn't give a rat's ass, and I know a few who would find the cartoons hilarious. It is the clerics and their Basij cronies who are all getting huffy and puffy about it.

Yes, I think Ahmadinejad really believes that he is the Messiah. What really scares me is if he orchestrates a coup d'Etat and takes over the country altogether. Then he'll really shove his backward ideas down everyone's throats. If he gets rid of Khamenei and Rafsanjani, then we are all in big trouble. But, but ... As much as I hate Ahmadinejad and hope and pray that someone would just kill him, he is a demagogue. It simply doesn't make sense for him to be such a religious person and then openly declare that he would destroy Jerusalem, home to one of the holiest places in Islam. That's like saying that Ahmadinejad wants to wipe out Mecca off the map. The man is a reactionary who wants to attract attention unto himself and make everyone shiver in fear. He is just a punk that should be eliminated.  



17 Feb 2006 @ 23:18 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : hehehe Cyrus
Jolly good then :)  


17 Feb 2006 @ 23:20 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Cleric offers reward for killing...
I can buy that. A lot of the Pakistanis are really extremists (they still bury women neck-deep and stone their faces in some villages). Forget Iran. Imagine if an Islamic Fundamentalist government overthrew General Musharraf in a coup d'Etat ( like Khomeini overthrew the Shah in the revolution in Iran)in Pakistan. Then the fundamentalists will for sure have their hands on nuclear weapons!! And when one knows that the Talibans (who sheltered Al-Qaeda) invaded Afghanistan with Pakistani help, that is really scary. And I can assure you that Pakistani Fundamentalists are one hundred times worse than Ahmadinejad and company.  


17 Feb 2006 @ 23:28 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : :(
yes I know I am very Concerned with the safty of humanity, there are alot of evil people out there :( , I just hope we dont go to war, we are running out of troops I fear a Military Draft. you never know...  


17 Feb 2006 @ 23:45 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Draft
Oh yeah, the draft. I am a naturalized American, but would be absolutely terrified of having to go to war and die, because of other people's insanity.  


18 Feb 2006 @ 04:12 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : In reference to my previous post
In an AP article dated 02/17/2006 by KHALED EL-DEEB, Associated Press Writer:

"....Pakistani intelligence officials have said scores of members of radical and militant Islamic groups have incited violence in a bid to undermine President Gen. Pervez Musharraf's government, a close ally of the United States."

Like I said before, I can just feel it; soon, Musharraf will be toppled and a radical extremist government will take over Pakistan. And believe me, wheras in Iran, the population opposes the current regime, in Pakistan, most people are in favor of radical Islam (or so I've heard). If this happens, we are all in big trouble, since these people might then really get their hands on nuclear weapons. If that happens, they won't only nuke Europe, the US, and Israel, but also everyone else, including the shiites in Iraq and Iran: Imagine that! In general, it is just really scary that very religiously-inclined people are coming to power everywhere: Ahmadinejad and the Basij in Iran, Bush and the neo-cons in the US, Hamas in the Palestinian territories. It's like all of these people are sitting in the extreme corner of a room and won't budge to try solve their differences, except through war. I am just praying that all this will not end up in a global conflict or we can kiss our asses good-bye. And if matters aren't worse, there might soon be a Bird Flu breakout as well. I can't help (cynically) but wonder if this isn't nature's (or God's??) way of re-establishing balance, given the rapid increase in human population. I just hope that I will never see World War III, but I'm increasingly feeling it creeping forward. We are living in very, very scary times.

P.S.: I believe Einstein once said, " I don't know exactly what weapons will be used in World War III, but I do know that mankind will be using sticks and stones in World War IV".  



18 Feb 2006 @ 06:59 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Wtf Dude CHill out and Vibrani
I did, of course question what I knew as far as Palestine was concerned, which is the least I could do given the time and effort you took in writing your post(s) relative to it, which I thank you for. I read an article through Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
which was rather resourceful. I guess that Palestine was really referring to a region and not a specific country. But, the problem seems to be due to the numerous peoples that have gone through the region and established empires at different historical times. It seems that the article also refers to the arabs in the land as calling themselves "Palestinian". Obviously, the fragmentation of the Ottoman Empire had and has created enormous problems, since most countries were often fictiously carved out of the map (such as Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq)by the British and French after World War I. What puzzles me the most, then, would be why, all of a sudden, the Jews and Arabs, who visibly had lived for centuries side by side, started going at each other's throats. I am assuming that when Lawrence of Arabia introduced the pan-arabian (a myth) concept during World War I in order to destabilize the Ottoman Empire, the Jewish population was all of a sudden surrounded by people who (incorrectly) believed that they were ethnically associated with one another (arabs). I guess the Jewish population tried to counter this perceived or existing threat by massively immigrating Jews from around the world. The British and French are therefore partly to blame for the mess that we currently have to deal with. How tragic. I believe that the persecutions that were unjustly placed unto the Jewish people (most of which stemmed from jealousy) has made them sometimes understandibly fearful and protective, which in turn unfortunately has generated more suspicion and hate towards them. As far as "the promised land" or "chosen people" concept is concerned, these attributes were probably given to the Jewish people in a generalized way; meaning that all peoples that are unjustly persecuted, all peoples who are disarmed and needy, are "God's" chosen people.  



18 Feb 2006 @ 22:09 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : me 2
I just hope that I will never see World War III, but I'm increasingly feeling it creeping forward. We are living in very, very scary times.

I feel the same way too  



19 Feb 2006 @ 07:24 by Khaled @144.134.167.175 : thats not islam
there is a huge misunderstanding in the way people perceive muslims today, we seem to be generalised as terrorists, hate-every-one-that-isnt-muslim folk, and lets just bomb things for the hell of it. but lets not forget there is always a percentage of people per population who are crazy and bring down the rest of us, islam being the fastest growing religion in the wolrd-has a higher percentage of unfortunate lunatics who bring the rest of us down. Real muslims are those who condemn killing innocent women and children during war, and condemn intentional mutilation of ones self, (there fore a terrorist bombing would be a double no-no) so these people in terrorist netwroks and what not, are just misguided people causing excruciating harm to the reputaion of islam.
lets not forget the oklahoma bombings, yeah-that guy wasnt a muslim, but no one said that the bombings were done by a muslim, jew, christian, or athiest, it was a plan executed y a troubled young man in society-individual to every one else, and not bringing any one else down with him.  



19 Feb 2006 @ 08:03 by vibrani : Oh yes sure
we had two men who went off in Oklahoma to bomb and killed many people - and they paid the price those two. It hardly compares to 100,000,000, the so-called 10% of Muslims rioting, killing, destroying. How about the Palestinians who still will not make peace with Israel?  


19 Feb 2006 @ 08:55 by Senorita @70.34.255.40 : All European life died in Auschwitz
By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez(*)

I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered
a terrible truth - Europe died in Auschwitz.

We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims.
In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, and talent.
We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they
produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science,
art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the
world. These are the people we burned.

And under the pretence of tolerance, and because we wanted to
prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism,
we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us
stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance,
crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their
families with pride.

They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world,
drowning in filth and crime.

Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government,
they plan the murder and destruction of their naïve hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred,
creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and
superstition. We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of
Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children,
their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who
pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for them-
selves and others, for our children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.

(*) This is a summary of an article recently printed in a Spanish
newspaper, but it applies to most countries of Western Europe.  



19 Feb 2006 @ 09:09 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : invade iran
maybe i should just invade iran myself. pack up some provisions. hire out a boat. and singlehandedly start a march to tehran. what would people think? tall white guy, in jeans and boots, 30 30 leveraction in hand, bowie knife in other, colt 45 on hip, makes it somehow unharmed to the steps of the capital, then demands in the name of the american people that the prez of iran come out and duel in the stteets, all in the name of the one God? sounds crazy, but if i somehow managed to do it, god what an international incident that would make!!!!! kind of a simple american cowboy type comes to meet at high noon with terrorist supporter? huh? far fetched yea. really cool, oh yea.  


19 Feb 2006 @ 09:25 by khaled @203.54.24.84 : oh yeh sure...bite me
u guys bombed us, u guys raped us, u guys did this, u guys did that ...blah blah...did any one even remotely understand the body of my argument? none of these crimes are commited by "muslims" these crimes are commited by people who wrote down "i am a muslim" under the "religion" category on the most recent sensus. if any one were to go to a mosque and actually see wat happnes, u would kno that we are anything but harmful to any one. sure the oklahoma bombings eliminated two people as opposed to the so called 1000000 people that died under the hands of "muslims" but im sure i could do my research and find an equal amount of deaths caused under the hands of jews, christians, hindus...truth of the matter is- i dont because it has ZERO significance to the behaviour of every one else.  


19 Feb 2006 @ 10:03 by vibrani : Funny
I keep reading about peaceful Muslims - people write about them all of the time, but I don't SEE or HEAR anything by any majority in the public that condemns these actions. Each day this hatred and violence spreads to a different city or country like a cancer in the name of Islam and Allah. I sure do hear Muslims DENOUNCING PEACE, and teaching children to blow themselves up so their horny asses can get to these imagined virgins in heaven and their families can cash in on their deaths and the deaths of innocent people. So, talk to the hand, khaled.  


19 Feb 2006 @ 11:15 by khaled @203.54.24.82 : stick to your day job pumkin
i keep reading about human rights, open minded people, but i dont hear or see any of them, all i do see is people like you- who have no shame in screaming what they think are flaws about islam to the world, calling islam a cancer, and sayin we "are waiting to get our horny asses to virgins in heaven".

unfortunatlyy vibrani, u failed to see the other side of the news, you are a victim of the media. you didnt get to the see the images of a man protecting his child in his arms from the wrath of israeli soldiers, whom never the less kill him and his son, you didnt get to see the POW's in iraq treated worse than any animal would be treated, and you certainly need to stop blaming your own virgin fanatsies and family death fantasies on muslims.

now instead of comming up with some of these ludacris flaws in islam as a final desperate argument, why dont you come up with some real points.
other wise im fine by what your doing, and i DARE you to tell me what your religion is, then we can fight fire with fire...no? then talk to the hand  



19 Feb 2006 @ 14:53 by vibrani : Unlike you
I am not a victim of propaganda. Don't play those games with me. I do know what's going on. I do not believe in any religion - why dare me to tell you? Religion is ignorance and verges on insanity - it is insanity for many - look around the planet, look at history. You need to read back to catch up with the conversation here.  


19 Feb 2006 @ 15:02 by Noname @83.244.99.252 : STOP
end this thread already :|  


19 Feb 2006 @ 15:22 by vibrani : Why?
don't like it? Don't read it. If people can't communicate - what good is that?  


19 Feb 2006 @ 18:31 by Intekhab @202.63.168.10 : Mohammed Cartoons
Look, what I interpret is that the cartoons have been published in bad taste.the cartoonist is the one to be blamed and the newspaper and the editor of the newspaper.It ould be unfair to blame the entire Denmark for the same.The Islamic world should unite and file a suit against the newspaper, and God save the cartoonist from the God fearing Muslims....  


19 Feb 2006 @ 20:08 by Rosalin @196.202.90.101 : Grow up Europe !!
I'm a christian woman from Belgium.
Maybe you'll be surprised from my point here , but I'm completely sympathized with muslims.
Maybe Mohammed is just a man to us,but for them he is the prophet sent from God.What has done ( Cartoons + refusing to apologize at first + reprinting the cartoons in Denmark + Printing them on T-Shirts) is provocative.

I have many nice muslim friends and I'm convinced that although some are over -reacting, some also are protesting peacefully and they are the majority.

from reviewing this thread I see that , unfortunatily, intelectual posts have been almost from muslims and posts that contained insults and blind assaults have come mostly from non-muslims.

This is really disappointing.  



19 Feb 2006 @ 21:17 by khaled @203.54.24.122 : rightly said rosalin
it is certainly dissapointing to see the lack of people who dont insult islam or directly insult the people they are talking to on a personal level for the sake of their argument, this shows truly shows plain ignorance...and maybe even verges on insanity.

people who follow religion have a set of guidlines, and morals to go with them... facilitating the basic principles of humanity that some people just cant grasp, for example- respect for other religions.
for the sake of not making any generalisations,strictly speaking in this forum it seems the people who dont follow religion are those whom feel the need to maliciously attack islam, atleast those who follow other religions can draw parallels to the fact that we are angry over people causelessly targeting islam-and instead of showing any regret at all...they justify it?  



20 Feb 2006 @ 00:18 by christian palestinian @83.244.99.252 : enough insults
How dare everyone insult islam and the prohet Mohamed people this is a religion sent by god like christianity how can we decide that god was wrong once and right another I have read parts of the quran and I have seen in it many of the teachings of christ and christianity so for those who are quick to attack in the name of christianity know your bible first and then read the quran and i promise you will not be so quick with the insults anymore. god bless you all.  


20 Feb 2006 @ 00:27 by christian palestinian @83.244.99.252 : Vibrany
If you are really enlightened you would never allow this kind of poison on this page enlightend people know that the basis of the lesson on earth is love and understanding. communication is fine when it serves a higher purpose.But what you are allowing here serves evil and hostility so look deep my freind and decide correctly to end this forum. Unless you have other motives $$$$$$$  


20 Feb 2006 @ 02:25 by vibrani : Enlightened people
Let me explain something to you - don't think you will understand it but what the heck: Religion is the result of the ego. The ego makes you believe you are not good enough as you are and you need more, want more, and if you are religions, a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, whatever, you will be more accepted, holy, special, superior, good, smarte, you will be "saved"! LOLOL - make up whatever fits your own needs here. It is an illusion of the ego, and a lack of true self-esteem and completeness within yourself. Check the level of hostility within yourself before you project it to others...I'm sure you'll find a goldmine there. Evil - what is evil? Your forgetfullness of the Source. Religion is a false identity, it's not who you really are, therefore can be considered evil.  


20 Feb 2006 @ 02:26 by vibrani : Enlightened people
well, how many people are truly enlightened? Spiritual people don't live in illusions (they keep busting them), nor do they bullshit people. They are true to themselves and others. Love is truth and beauty. Compassion is my reality - don't confuse compassion with lack of honesty. And if you paid attention, you'd spell my name correctly. lol Religion is YOUR illusion, your need, your lack of self-completeness, and you have no right to force it on anyone else.  


20 Feb 2006 @ 06:35 by khaled @203.54.24.127 : enlgihten me some more...
oh puh-leeeeze..."compassion is your reality" yeah right, your try telling that to the bulging vein on the side of your head as you blindly insult every religious beleif other than your own...oh yah, what beleif?

relgion is not the result of an ego, and it certainly doesnt mean in any way that we arent good the way we are, however your mindless attacks on something that has done nothing to you are a direct reflection of your lack of your finding comfort and meaning in belittling others.

"religion is YOUR illusion"...no. vibrani, relgion is your fear, im not saying to join a relgion, do what your will, but unless you learn to embrace, it is YOU who will be prisoner to your unforgiving mind, constantly finding faults in every thing.

i hate that this is getting personal, and i dont speak on behalf of muslims when i say this, based on the fact that i know alot of muslims are alot nicer than me, and i dont speak to all atheists either, because i know alot are alot nicer than you...maybe you should start gettin to know ALL the muslims before your talk about ALL of them  



20 Feb 2006 @ 06:37 by christian palestinian @83.244.99.252 : vibrani
love,compassion,big words that need understanding. love is to accept people as they are at any given moment.to accept that their soul at this moment has reached a certain level of understanding and not blame them for it but instead to help them along the path of understanding. ego can lead you astray in beleiving how complete you are and will stop you from developing check your illusions my freind.the human mind is not capable of describing what is beyond the physical world.and therefore any system of beleif is considered an illusion. but you have to remeber human laws which start with do unto others as you would have them do unto you. hosyility see how hostile you are towards people who threaten your beleifs words of grandour "I don't think you will understand it but what the heck" Check your ego my freind the words love and understanding are empty to you they are only tools in your beleif which in your every day life you do not practice.God bless  


20 Feb 2006 @ 07:48 by khaled @203.54.24.161 : finally
buzzz...winner is...christian palestinian!
you have won the following: respect  



20 Feb 2006 @ 08:06 by vibrani : As I said
your need to have religion is your illusion and you have proven that your ego and ignorance sure is involved in it - you don't have the right to force it on anyone else. Religion IS totally based on fear! Fear of God! And it's counting on your ignorance and inability to even TRY to find out God on your own. You're so insecure at even talking about this. Religion/fear is the opposite of love. If it were about love the world sure wouldn't be in this condition and no one would need a "leader" to tell them what to believe. Enjoy your illusions.  


20 Feb 2006 @ 08:25 by vibrani : Will it ever be enough?
Carsten Juste, Danish editor of Jyllands-Posten, the paper that
originally printed the "Mohamed Cartoons"


"Allow me in the name of Jyllands-Posten to apologize for what
happened and declare my strong condemnation of any step that attacks
specific religions, ethnic groups and peoples. I hope that with this
I have removed the misunderstanding.

It is extremely important to point out that the aim behind these
cartoons was not to attack the Prophet at all or devalue him, but as
an opening to dialogue on freedom of expression," Sunday's apology
said.

We did not realize at the time how sensitive this issue was for
Muslims in Denmark or millions of Muslims around the world."


GAMLA: While the Danes may have learned a lesson, the Muslims around
the world have learned a different lesson: violence, hatred, coercion
are the way to get what they want. So sad for all involved....  



20 Feb 2006 @ 08:58 by khaled @144.134.159.14 : in addition
some nice compassionate words there, that really oughta warm the hearts of our readers.

religion is not based on fear, unfortunatly you seem to only be reading childrens picture books on religion, and never actually get the whole picture. different relgions are based on different things, islam in particular is based on five pillars- fasting, donations, haj (pilgrimige to mecca), tashahud (recognising god and his prohet mohamed), and prayer. muslims fear god, but equally bask in the glory of his kindness.

back to the original topic of the embassy bombings and cartoons: admittedly reactions were out of hand...but on the same token, these muslims are a minority- the world spans further than israel palestine and europe, where most of the troubles are occuring, these reactions are not a reflection of muslims around the world but a reflection of how good the media is at pinpointing an angry muslim and framing them into a mug shot.

finally, muslims are not insecure in talking about their relgion, god, or his prophets, we are more than happy to promote islam (not force it on anyone), but some measures need to be taken to protect gods name and the name of his prophets from the disrespectfull arguments their names are thrown around in  



20 Feb 2006 @ 09:13 by vibrani : Useless
closed minds. Thinking God needs protection! ROFLMAO! hahahaha And these idiots will do anything to rationalize this insanity and hypocrisy! This is how fucked up the planet has become. God, the almighty creator of all life in the cosmos, planets, stars, lifeforms of all kinds, the oceans, the mountains, needs human protection - and from what?! From Itself?  


20 Feb 2006 @ 10:38 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : KKKKAAAABBBBBOOOOOOMMMMMMM
I think we just need to drop an atom bomb on France and Mecca. That should take care of American problems quite nicely. You think?:) Just kidding. Really guys, I do think it is time to end this thread. We've kind of beaten a dead horse even deaderer lol. So Please, in the name of Allah, YHWH, Buddha, the Great Spirit, etc. everybody just end it here ok?  


20 Feb 2006 @ 12:30 by khaled @203.54.24.102 : happy medium
as a token of our worship to him, the least we can do is to protect his name (not god himself) in a bid to show respect to god and the prophets, anyhooo i agree with johnnyboy (excpet the bomb mecca part...lol) and am going to lay down my arms for the moment.

thought some of the things were said in bad taste (*cough...vibrani) im going to agree to disagree, for i gained an insight on the opinions on other people.
for the record i found this site in research for a school assignment, and when i read these threads i felt obligated to say something, anyway what im gettin at is could some of you guys let me know some more details about you for the sake of finding out where these opinions come from (country, age, male/female)
im a 16 yr old Egyptian living in australia...sorry to any one i offended...thanku  



20 Feb 2006 @ 13:28 by MAI_IBRAHIM2003 @62.135.97.199 : plz read
VIBRANI,I NOW THAT U ARE NARROW minded because u dont know any thing about our relagion or our prophet MUHAMED .He is the most person on earth that get women`s freedom back after christianity and jewish people considered it as something to own or to possess .DOo u know that before our prophet women were turn to the elder son after his father`s death and islam give women the right to inheret .AND I THINK THIS TOO in your old european heritage .all i want from u is to not to read not only about negatives of thing but also the positive and dont take one person as a model for a whole nation  


20 Feb 2006 @ 13:37 by jewish guy @203.54.24.102 : nice work guys...
these cartoons depicting the prophetet mohamed as a terrorist with a bomb under his hat had a message...muslims are terrorists with short tempers and (ironically) short fuses who like to bomb everything. muslims didnt like this comic and in a bid to show it wasnt true...they bombed the embassy...*raises eye brow, they sure know how to put up a convincing argument  


20 Feb 2006 @ 15:09 by Laughs and Laughs @203.115.77.208 : Mohammed Cartoon
Its outrageous for me and rightly for all the muslims to make cartoons of Mohammed. just not acceptable.....afterall how can you make cartoon of such a big cartoon ? and look a at this while keep saying that Islam and muslims are peaceful they are burning and killing ? haa haa haa haa  


20 Feb 2006 @ 16:29 by christian palestinian @83.244.99.252 : vibrani
words like, ego , ignorance , force ,Fear of God,insecure .you can tell what a person thinks by what he says these are your words.

It is not enough to read a book to become an exepert on life. I accept that that this is where you are and I hope that god lights the way for you. god bless  



20 Feb 2006 @ 17:19 by ZXCASDASDS @64.114.107.128 : ASSADASDZXC
Hamas: Islam will rule the world
West can take its financial aid and 'go to hell'



By Ryan Jones

February 8th, 2006

Hamas remains undeterred in its quest to ultimately see Israel annihilated, and says one day soon the tables will turn and the “Christian” West will be dependent on the good graces of its Muslim overlords.

For the time being, the United States and Europe can take their much needed financial aid and drop dead.

Washington, and to a lesser degree Western Europe, have been threatening to cut off the flow of money to a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority unless the group renounces its violent intentions, recognizes the Jewish state and works for a negotiated peace settlement.

Meeting with PLO chief Mahmoud Abbas in Gaza Saturday, Hamas' top parliamentary candidate, Ismail Haniyah, reiterated that his group will never accept Jewish sovereignty over even one inch of this land.

Gaza-based Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar followed up by telling The Washington Post in his usual forthright manner:

“Israel is an illegal entity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist... the western countries can take their aid and go to hell.”
Hamas determination to not compromise on Israel's destruction stems from its Islam-based belief that wiping out the Jewish state is just the first step towards world domination, as revealed by overall Hamas chief Khaled Mashal during an address at a Damascus mosque on February 3:

“We say to this West... By Allah, you will be defeated. You will be defeated in Palestine, and your defeat there has already begun. True, it is Israel that is being defeated there, but when Israel is defeated, its path is defeated, those who call to support it are defeated, and the cowards who hide behind it and support it are defeated. Israel will be defeated, and so will whoever supported or supports it.”
“Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. ”
Mashal went on to point out the obvious reason why the West continues inching itself closer to defeat by pandering to what it believes are the “moderate” Muslim masses:

“They do not understand the Arab or Muslim mentality, which rejects the foreigner.”
This truth was exposed last month with Hamas' landslide electoral victory, despite assertions by the Bush Administration that the Palestinian Arab public would never vote in blood-soaked terrorists.  



20 Feb 2006 @ 20:09 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Vibrani
First of, I really like your posts. They are very true, in my opinion, but you must know that already.

"If it were about love the world sure wouldn't be in this condition and no one would need a "leader" to tell them what to believe. Enjoy your illusions."

That reminds me of that poor professor at Teheran University who said:

"What do they think?? Do they think we are Monkeys?? We don't need any Supreme Leader to tell us how to live and behave in society."

The professor is now serving a prison sentence in Evin Prison outside of Teheran for his "blasphemous" words (sarcasm). A few months ago, an MP openly questioned the fruits of the 1979 revolution, saying that the people were worse off than during the Shah's time (very true). For "insulting" the Revolution, he was thrown in jail as well.

Johnnyboy, I wish the younger generation had the courage you have. I have seen them gather around to flirt with one another, only to see the FUCKING Basij (paramilitary Islamic fanatics)come and beat them up; they want to avoid any form of gathering, since that usually sparks revolutions. I couldn't understand it: the youngsters were at least 50 to 100 in number, and these Basij were only three or four. Armed with their machine guns (without them they would be small little fearful maggots) they would kick the western-looking kids in the ass and tell them to get lost. Fuck that! If it were me, I would take one of those religious FUCKS and beat the crap out of him. If 50-100 people beat up 3-4 of these Basij members, no one would know who did it. Their would be a force of numbers. Instead, those 3-4 bullies constantly succeed in chasing away 50-100 people. Its a shame. The mighty Persian warriors reduced to fleeing cowards in the face of oppression. BTW: If you want to go mano a mano with the Iranian President, you better get rid of the Supreme Leader and the entire Basij as well. I can tell you for sure that their are many Ahmadinejads and worse in the ranks. Why don't we team up and create a guerilla group; we could kill each and every one of them with Mafia-style asassinations!! I guess that's wishful thinking.  



20 Feb 2006 @ 20:59 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : to ZXCASDASDS
"Hamas: Islam will rule the world"

Let's hope not. Because if they do, they will not only cover the women from head to toe (in order to not get turned on: go figure! Islamic fanatics ARE SEXUAL PERVERTS, believe me), they will forbid men from wearing ties, shorts, short-sleeved shirts and will insist that men grow filthy beards (Men must look as ugly and filthy as possible in order not to "turn" women on). Mankind will be sent back 1,000 years. The worse part is that they will try to annihilate your culture and replace it with their own, turn your buildings into Mosques (may I remind you that they turned Saint Sophia in Istanbul into a mosque and erased all Christian images in the church; though Ataturk restored some of the church to its former self) and shout prayers through loud speakers three to four times a day, including in the middle of the night. Also be prepared to cry constantly and mourn (including inflicting wounds to oneself, such as bashing your forehead with an ax until blood covers your entire face or self-whipping your back with spikes) some schmuck who died in a war for his personal wealth and glory 1,000 years ago. When I saw such a spectacle, I was actually wondering if I could help them beat themselves; it would have been fun beating the crap out of some fanatic imbecile with his own whip and ax.  



20 Feb 2006 @ 21:09 by vibrani : Cyrus
Thanks. Really, look at all the statements made about religious people saying religion is about love and peace - if that were true, we'd be living that reality all over the world. Sorry to hear about the Professor - but it's unfortunately typical in many countries because it challenges a dictator's and tyrant's rule. It challenges beliefs - people even in this log can't deal with that, so how can the rest of the world at this time?  


20 Feb 2006 @ 21:17 by vibrani : Khaled
My youngest son is the same age you are and he has the freedom to question anything he wants to and make up his own mind. But he at least considers what people say and then finds his own answers. Think what makes sense to your heart-mind. You couldn't respond to this: God needs protection - from what? Why would this supreme creator need protection? I hope you will at the very least think about that for yourself. Forget what books tell you about God, forget for a moment what you've been taught by others - find that answer inside yourself.  


20 Feb 2006 @ 21:19 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.96 : Claimed Freedom of speech
Holocaust denier Irving is jailed
[link]

Hmmmmmm...The European CLAIMED Freedom of speech is in Danger !!!  



20 Feb 2006 @ 21:20 by vibrani : Damn right
anyone stupid enough to deny the Holocaust and spread lies about it AND supports Hitler deserves to have some kind of punishment - it is illegal in that country to do what he did, and he broke the law. It's not that he has no freedom of speech, this isn't about that really, it's how he did it that's the problem. The Holocaust happened, even though I'm sure you're one of the deniers, too.  


20 Feb 2006 @ 21:25 by vibrani : Get the message, yet?

Accused Holocaust denier's trial opens
By ASSOCIATED PRESS Vienna

British historian David Irving goes on trial Monday on charges of denying the Holocaust occurred - a crime punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment in Austria.

Irving, 67, has been in custody since his arrest in November on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' extermination of six million Jews. An eight-member jury and a panel of three judges will hear the proceedings, which officials said could produce a verdict as early as Monday.

His trial opens amid fresh - and fierce - debate over freedom of expression in Europe, where the printing and reprinting of unflattering cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad has triggered violent protests worldwide.

Irving had tried to win his provisional release on €20,000 bail, but a Vienna court refused, saying it considered him a flight risk.

His lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, said last month the controversial Third Reich historian was getting up to 300 pieces of fan mail a week from supporters around the world, and that while in detention he was writing his memoirs under the working title "Irving's War."

Irving was arrested November 11 in the southern Austrian province of Styria on a warrant issued in 1989. He was charged under a federal law that makes it a crime to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust.

Within two weeks of his arrest, Irving asserted through his lawyer that he now acknowledges the existence of Nazi-era gas chambers.

In the past, however, he has claimed that Hitler knew little if anything about the Holocaust, and has been quoted as saying there was "not one shred of evidence" the Nazis carried out their Final Solution to exterminate the Jewish population on such a massive scale.

"What was he doing in Austria? God only knows. Possibly looking for an audience," Austrian state television said in a pre-trial commentary.

Vienna's national court, where the trial is being held, ordered the balcony gallery closed to prevent projectiles from being thrown down at the bench, the newspaper Die Presse reported Sunday.

It quoted officials as saying they were bracing for Irving's supporters to give him the Nazi salute or shout out pro-Hitler slogans during the trial, which will continue into Tuesday if a verdict is not reached on Monday.

Irving is the author of nearly 30 books, including Hitler's War, which challenges the extent of the Holocaust, and has contended most of those who died in concentration camps succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.

In 2000, Irving sued American Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt for libel in a British court, but lost. The presiding judge in that case, Charles Gray, wrote that Irving was "an active Holocaust denier ... anti-Semitic and racist." Irving has had numerous run-ins with the law over the years.

In 1992, a judge in Germany fined him the equivalent of $6,000 for publicly insisting the Nazi gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax.

******************************

Hungary's Shoah museum shows pre-Nazi oppression
By ASSOCIATED PRESS Budapest, Hungary

A permanent exhibition opening Tuesday at Budapest's Holocaust Memorial Center illustrates how Hungarian political and religious leaders helped lay the groundwork for the persecution of Jews in the decades before the Holocaust.

The exhibit goes beyond the Holocaust deaths of the 550,000 Hungarian Jews and 50,000 Roma killed by the Nazis during World War II by illustrating the oppression Jews faced even in the 1920s and 1930s.

By touching upon the role Hungarians played in facilitating the Holocaust - instead of simply blaming the Nazis - the collection is expected to cause controversy.

"The exhibit examines the relationship between the state and the citizens," said exhibit director Judit Molnar. "It shows how Jews were first deprived of their basic rights, and over the years of their possessions, freedom, human dignity and, finally, their lives."

The display titled "From Deprivation of Rights to Genocide" includes personal belongings of Holocaust victims, short films, photographs and interactive features both in Hungarian and English.

Hungary first passed laws limiting Jews' rights in 1920 and by 1938, they were declared second-class citizens as Hungary sought to "curb the expansionist moves of Jews in public life and the economy," according to one of the displays.

While the exhibit points out the general responsibility of Hungary's post-World War I political, intellectual and social elite in the "ideological preparation" of the Holocaust, it also highlights some of the individuals it considers at fault.

A picture of Catholic Bishop Ottokar Prohaszka - who died in 1927 and is considered by Hungarian Catholics as one of the most distinguished church figures of the 20th century - bears the caption: "Leading figure of conservative anti-Semitic ideology," without further details.

In a country like Hungary where numerous historical events - both ancient and recent - are just starting to be comprehensively investigated and discussed publicly, naming names is a guaranteed lighting rod for tension.

"There will be people who surely are going to be upset by that description," Molnar said of the Prohaszka caption. "But it's factual and we will stand by it."

The exhibit also includes detailed histories of several Jewish and Roma families and how the Holocaust affected them, a haunting depiction of how normality was destroyed.

Other displays deal with the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp - where a third of the victims were from Hungary; the aftermath of the Holocaust and its survivors; Gentiles who saved Jews, and Hungary's 1944 occupation by Germany, which ended the Jews' relative safety here.

Despite the restrictive "Jewish laws" and the WWII alliance with Germany, Hungarian authorities managed to block Nazi demands for the Jews' deportation until German troops occupied Hungary in March 1944. Then, more than 400,000 countryside Jews were sent to concentration camps in just 56 days.

In 1910, Hungary's 910,000 Jews made up 5 percent of the population, more than a fifth of Budapest's population of 880,000. Today, around 100,000 Jews are believed to live in Hungary, which now has a population of 10 million.

Officials at the museum, which opened in April 2004, emphasized the educational objectives of the exhibit. During the communist era that ended in 1990 the Holocaust was a taboo subject.

"Our aim is for every young person to see this exhibit before they finish school," said Gabor Szekely, chairman of the museum's board of trustees, adding that the recommended minimum age for visiting the exhibit is 14 due to some of its graphic images.

The final part of the exhibit is located in a renovated synagogue, with a partitioned area for meditation.

"We want to give visitors an opportunity to reflect upon what they've seen," Molnar said.

She also pointed out that while a tour of the exhibit requires about two hours, visitors could also find thousands of extra photographs, testimonies and documents on computers set up in the synagogue's gallery.

"We couldn't fit everything we wanted to say and show in the exhibit," said Molnar, a historian. "The exhibit is not a textbook."  



20 Feb 2006 @ 21:55 by vibrani : *
*  


20 Feb 2006 @ 21:59 by vibrani : Does everyone else see this?
You ask direct questions of Muslims about God and they canNOT answer them? All they do is quote the Koran and repeat the phrases they've been taught, or twist the converation to blame someone for something because they think in some way it relates to Muslims and Islam. Just like the morons attacking U.S. places over the Danish cartoons. They cannot think for themselves outside of their box. They demand people get to know them and their religion - okay, I've read the Koran, I know Muslims, and try to talk with others but they cannot get out of their victim/superiority trip...no self-responsibility, no introspection, no tolerance of anyone else for real. Because if it doesn't suit the Muslim agenda, most don't want to hear or think about it.

As for freedom of speech - Howard Stern is on the radio, neo-Nazis still march in the U.S. We pretty much still have freedom of speech.  



20 Feb 2006 @ 22:48 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Our existence a blade away
Even though we vilify other religions and creeds, it is interesting to note that had history not occurred precisely they way it has, none, and I mean none of us would be here today blogging. I have often vilified Alexander the Great for defeating the Persian Empire. Well, at the first battle between Darius III and Alexander, Alexander was nearly killed. A Greek mercenary in the Persian Army was about to deliver a decisive blow to Alexander's head, nearly making him a not-so-great. Alexander was saved by the blade of one of his soldier-friends (and one of his lovers)in the nick of time. In less than a second, not only did history take one course and not another, but my existence, and I am sure, that of the whole world population today was decided. It is really scary, when you realize that you were a blade away from not being born at all. So had the Moors not invaded Spain or Charles Martel not stopped the Muslims at Poitier, none of you Europeans or Muslims would even be here to voice your support or your outrage over these cartoons. Sometimes, life is really that simple.  


20 Feb 2006 @ 23:54 by vibrani : Thanks to Israel - fewer terrorists
Israeli forces in the West Bank city of Nablus early Monday shot and killed Islamic Jihad's top commander in the region, the militant group said.

Lt. Col. Benjamin Shick, an Israeli commander, said his forces caught a group of militants, including Ahmed Abu Sharik, 30, off guard on the second day of a raid in Nablus.

"We found a group of people we have been seeking for a while and we went for them," he said. "We know every street and alley, where they are and where they hide."

Military officials said Abu Sharik had been involved in numerous attacks on Israeli soldiers, and he helped plan a recent suicide attack in Tel Aviv. The army also arrested 15 militants overnight throughout the West Bank.  



21 Feb 2006 @ 00:16 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Good enough
YAY FOR ISRAELLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish the U.S would let go of israel so israel could use whatever force they wanted, we are just killing our selves by holding on to israel. Hamas is fucking evil Just Type hammas in google pictures and you see the whole image. Today I saw on tv these Fanatical Noobs Burning Danish, American, Israeli, British flags all together... what the fuck do they want?? we dont make the decisions Our president does. fuck...  


21 Feb 2006 @ 00:50 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : What a perfectly idiotic thing to do
It is rather idiotic for people to buy flags and then burn them. Talk about economic stupidity: paying money to buy a flag that you end up burning. I suggest those people shortcircuit the problem and make things easier: Just burn your own money, because in the end it's the same thing. Actually, I should probably go to these countries and sell them some cheap flags for them to burn; I would become so rich!! This reminds me of when some of our countrymen (US) got all angry with the French before the Iraq war, and dumped hundreds of dollars worth of red wine into the gutters. That was really silly: You buy the wine from them, give your money to them and then dump it away. Talk about throwing money out of the window! But of course, when human beings are angry they do the most stupid things.  


21 Feb 2006 @ 01:38 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : LOOOOOOOL CYRUS
ROFL CYRUS!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAAAAAAAAHHAAAAAAAAH AHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAHAA!!!!!!!!!! FUNNY TIME HAPPY TIME, IM GOING TO BE LAUGHING FOR HOURS, LETS ALL BUY DANISH GOODS!!! SUPPORT THE CAUSE!!!!!  


21 Feb 2006 @ 01:53 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Taking From Peter to Pay Paul
That's a great idea Wtf Dude CHill out. It would be like taking from Peter to pay Paul. Let's borrow the flags and other goods from the Danish. We can then sell it to all those fools for twice the price and watch in glee as they burn the flags and trash the goods, effectively burning their own money and trashing their own livelihoods. Then we can sell them even more stuff, which they will certainly buy and burn more. We would become millionaires in days, and then we would give some money back to the Danish = Taking from Peter to pay Paul. Of course Peter gets screwed in the equation, but who cares?? At least everyone has fun: we make money, the Danish make money, and the fanatics get to burn their money away. Spoken like a true capatalist!  


21 Feb 2006 @ 01:58 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Oops: Capitalist
...  


21 Feb 2006 @ 02:38 by vibrani : the most feared man
Non-Sequitur, by Wiley

 



21 Feb 2006 @ 04:42 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : EHhuEUheuEHe
Lol cyrus that was a good post earlier I laughed for hours A damn good idea too AHMEN BROTHER!. Vibrani I cant see what the picture says ( the sign beside the guy ) can you tell me what it says?  


21 Feb 2006 @ 05:17 by vibrani : Sure WTF Dude
it says "Caricatures of Mohammad while you wait!"  


21 Feb 2006 @ 06:02 by Wtf Dude CHill out @64.114.107.128 : Rofl launcher
hahahah clever.  


21 Feb 2006 @ 07:34 by vibrani : I'm just imagining
a Muslim woman in the ice dancing competition at the Olympics hahahaha That will be the day.  


21 Feb 2006 @ 07:38 by khaled @203.54.24.237 : vibrani
god does not need protection. do not twist my words. god asks of us to respect his name, use it in right context and to respect his prophets. as mulsims we feel the obligation to do exactly that.

your right vibrani, i do need to find the answer inside my self, i dont know enough about my religion to effectively influence someone like you into my opinion, however in all the madness in the world, it is clear now more than ever that humans cant control themselves without guidance- other wise we would all have perished long ago. there needs to be a medium to which people with differences agree on. the moment you get depressed or lonely..what meaning does life has? where do u seek comfort? i find this meaning and comfort from god. vibrani i find it almost impossible to even think how a non beleiver doesnt immediatly fall into depression once realising- u come, u fight, u perish..fortgotten? thats it? there must be more, and there is for those who beleive it  



21 Feb 2006 @ 08:11 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : allies
well. I think that even though a lot of us have disagreements about religion. I think that we are all agreed that getting mad about a fucking cartoon is just pure lunacy. I think that all of us thinking and rational individuals, religious or not, should get together and kick the snot out of violent, and the key word is violent, extremists all over the world. My 2 cents.  


21 Feb 2006 @ 22:41 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Extremist seizing the opportunity

It seems as though some political extremist groups are trying to seize the occasion in order to advance their "Unholy" dream of an Islamic Empire. The danger of it is that so-called moderates are also chanting the same tunes. I only hope that nothing serious will happen in Pakistan.



JALALABAD, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Hundreds of Afghans shouted support on Monday for Osama bin Laden and threatened to join al Qaeda during a protest against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, while Pakistan Islamists vowed to broaden their campaign.

The student protest against the cartoons in the eastern Afghan city of Jalalabad passed peacefully in contrast to a weekend of deadly rioting in several countries, including Nigeria, where 28 people were killed, and Libya where 11 died.

Two weeks ago in Afghanistan, at least 10 people were killed in several days of protests over the cartoons but the demonstrations largely petered out after that.

On Monday, students gathered in the campus of the university in Jalalabad chanting "Death to Denmark," "Death to America" and "Death to France," a witness said.

They also chanted "Death to Karzai" and demanded President Hamid Karzai close the embassies of Denmark, the United States and France and expel their forces from Afghanistan.

"If they abuse the Prophet of Islam again we will all become al Qaeda," the students shouted.

In the Hindu kingdom of Nepal, about 5,000 Muslims marched through the western town of Nepalgunj and presented a memorandum to the chief bureaucrat of the town. "You can't insult the Islam. Punish the cartoonist," some of them shouted.

Cartoons first published in a Danish newspaper last year and reprinted in European papers have sparked worldwide protests by Muslims who believe it is blasphemous to depict the Prophet.

In the deadliest protests, at least 28 people died in riots in two Muslim states in northern Nigeria at the weekend.

A Red Cross official said on Monday the death toll from the riots in Maiduguri, where 21 people were killed, could rise further as some of the 207 people hurt were in critical condition. Troops patrolled the capital of the northeastern state of Borno to prevent further violence.

About a dozen churches, 200 shops, 50 houses and 100 vehicles were razed or vandalised by protesters in Maiduguri who ran wild after police fired teargas to disperse them.

MORE PAKISTAN PROTESTS

Pakistan's main Islamist alliance, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), said on Monday it would broaden its campaign. Five people died in protests in Pakistan last week.

Qazi Hussain Ahmed, president of the MMA, was held under house arrest in Lahore at the weekend to prevent him leading a rally in the capital Islamabad on Sunday.

After his release on Monday he called publication of the cartoons in European newspapers "part of the clash of civilisations led by (U.S. President George W.) Bush."

"Therefore our movement is against Bush as well as against Mush," he told a news briefing, referring to Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, a key ally in Bush's war on terrorism.

A countrywide protest was planned for Friday, another in Lahore on Sunday and a nationwide general strike on March 3.

Further protests are planned and could coincide with a visit to Pakistan by Bush, expected in early March, although no dates for this visit have yet been announced.

Last week, a Pakistani Muslim cleric and his followers offered rewards amounting to over $1 million for anyone who killed Danish cartoonists who drew the Prophet caricatures.

Denmark and Norway on Monday condemned the bounty. "It's murder and murder is also forbidden by the Koran," said Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller  



21 Feb 2006 @ 22:55 by vibrani : IF only
these guys would put as much effort into helping their own people as they do in hating others, maybe then they'd not have to find things to complain about? Or, do they need to complain so much that having a better life is of less importance? Finding faul with the Americans, the French, the Danish, the whomevers, and encouraging violence is a great distraction from fixing the problems in one's own society.  


22 Feb 2006 @ 08:35 by Hayaat @70.248.193.246 : for VIBRANI & JohnyBoy
hey ... i thought no Muslims have ever been to this website thats y u r saying this all rubbish....u what r Muslims ...or leave it what r muslim...let me consider u both.if Vibrani's RAMJI N johny's JESUS ...will be at that place then what will u gonna do ....especially u Vibrani....if ur Ram ji will be there at the place of PROPHET(pubh) what will u gonna do....u dont know? let mw tell u then u will be the one just like other HINDU peoples who gonna kill that cartoonist ........just imagine ur Parents at the place of Prophet Mohummad(P.B.U.H)...if any body gonna make ur parents cartoon doing something personal or just normal cartoon like advising n shows it in negative way what will u gona do ...just laughing on others like u r doing right now ...no Sir u gonna kill that man n u will the perfect MOB on that time ...SO PLZZ DONT SAY ANYTHING BAD LIKE MUSLIMS...n u dont even needs to b worried about muslims cuz they never kill or hurt innocent peoples ..they only kill the peoples who tries to kill innocent people...which is called JIHAD.... by the way If any body says that Muslims r faulted for 911 ...so i dont think so that was all already planned from 98 if u gonna see the $20 bill n gonna fold in some way so u will find it who done that all  


22 Feb 2006 @ 08:37 by Hayaat @70.248.193.246 : FOR Mr. or Miss.VIBRANI N JOHNYBOY
hey ... i thought no Muslims have ever been to this website thats y u r saying this all rubbish....u what r Muslims ...or leave it what r muslim...let me consider u both.if Vibrani's RAMJI N johny's JESUS ...will be at that place then what will u gonna do ....especially u Vibrani....if ur Ram ji will be there at the place of PROPHET(pubh) what will u gonna do....u dont know? let mw tell u then u will be the one just like other HINDU peoples who gonna kill that cartoonist ........just imagine ur Parents at the place of Prophet Mohummad(P.B.U.H)...if any body gonna make ur parents cartoon doing something personal or just normal cartoon like advising n shows it in negative way what will u gona do ...just laughing on others like u r doing right now ...no Sir u gonna kill that man n u will the perfect MOB on that time ...SO PLZZ DONT SAY ANYTHING BAD LIKE MUSLIMS...n u dont even needs to b worried about muslims cuz they never kill or hurt innocent peoples ..they only kill the peoples who tries to kill innocent people...which is called JIHAD.... by the way If any body says that Muslims r faulted for 911 ...so i dont think so that was all already planned from 98 if u gonna see the $20 bill n gonna fold in some way so u will find it who done that all  


22 Feb 2006 @ 08:48 by Hayaat @70.248.193.246 : FOR VIBRANI
Vinrani u will never gonna see Muslim woman dancing in ice in olympics...first look at ur sister or wife or mon n imagine them at that woman's place how i m imagine....just like ur indian girls always do .......  


22 Feb 2006 @ 10:51 by johhnyboy @64.136.26.235 : ????????????????? HAYAAT
please write something intelligent you dumbass bastard!!!!!!!!!!!!! allah can't even read your gibberish you monkey eared dung eater!!!!!!!!!!! and your gay ass probably WANTS to prance upon the ice dressed in a hijab and bra and panties!!!!!!!!! once again, let me say, it is a fucking cartoon!!! get over it and go back to your mosques and pray to allah for forgiveness for being so hilariously sensitive to a cartoon of all things! doesn't say much for your faith in Allah that you won't let him handle the offensive cartoon instead of going around burning shit and banning danish pastries. god, allah, jesus, buddha, etc. please protect us from stupid freaking donkey eared pricks such as hayaat, if he is truly this illiterate!  


22 Feb 2006 @ 11:02 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : ur frum da hood aint ya boy hayaat
ur frum da hood aint ya, one of them nation of islam whackjobs, right? i bet u r cause you sho do be writin like a gansta. In the Queen's English: Sir, I believe that you are from one of the Black American ghettoes and probably a member of the American cult Nation of Islam. Your writing seems at least to be a derivative of the "gangsta" or "hip hop" movement.  


22 Feb 2006 @ 15:19 by Rosalin @196.202.91.224 : no title
I Don't believe in Jehad and those crap,but today, me and my work mates have discussed the situation.
Yes, They are cartoons,but I remember afew days ago some writer has been jailed for a piece of writing denying the Holocust,in which me-myself- never believed in.That man is not the 1st one.Isn't writing like drawing?they both are two types of art to express an opinion.
I see that we are living a lie called the freedom of speech,so I advice you not to play in its track.
Muslims,although I'm Sympathized with you,but I'm amazed of how much you are splitted up.You deny the violent actions in Afghanistan and in the same time you don't do anything about it.Go and tell those people that what they do is wrong and they are a pain in the ass because the ugly picture of them ( the minority) will overwelm yours ( the majority).and I see some of you are super richie rich,specially those who live in the Arabian Gulf area.Why don't they help people in tensioned places like Iraq and Pakistan?
I read about Islam and knew about it being the religion of peace and forgiveness.You have to prove it if you really care about your religion.  



22 Feb 2006 @ 19:34 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : The Beauty of Blogging
The beauty of this forum resides in the fact that people from around the world get to express their opinion(s), albeit in very dramatic and entertaining fashion (wink). Of course, one can only wish that some effort would be made by some inhabitants of MingLand to get their point across in ENGLISH. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time and Ming's server space. At least write it so others can read it, otherwise keep your gibberish to yourself.  


22 Feb 2006 @ 21:22 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Mastercard
To all Muslim Fanatics, this is an ad for your New Platinum Mastercard:

- Newspaper showing twelve cartoons intended to make people laugh, that you should read before wasting everyone's time rioting: $2.00 on debit-mastercard

- Danish flag for burning purposes: $1.50 on debit-mastercard

- A pinata depicting your "enemies", generally in the form of some Western Politician: $20 on debit-mastercard

- A semi-automatic with bullets that you can shoot in the air to prove that you are all macho and that the world should fear you (when you really look like a bunch of fools): $300 on debit-mastercard

- Watching you idiots waste your money in order to burn flags and go ape-shit protesting over drawings like little children: PRICELESS  



23 Feb 2006 @ 01:40 by bob @210.11.188.15 : i love sid
U GUYS ALL SUCK MY BALLS!! YEAH  


23 Feb 2006 @ 15:28 by mai_ibrahim @82.201.248.22 : make up ur minds
HAAYAT i thank u so much for ur illustration ur really agood example of a good muslim .And for every one who read this u say that it is normally to insult PROPHIT MUHAMED...will let me ask u in india they hollify COWS for good sake a nation who worship cows is beileve to insult a basic religion such islam or christianity ...... and u say that muslims reactione are so mush in this point i agree with u but if any one insult ur father and he is avery descent person ...what will be ur reaction.....and u vibrani said that u have read the qura`n i think not or u read it without understanding any thing because we have aya in qura`n says if they want peace so it would be it وان جنحو للسلم فاجنح لها وتوكل على الله
صدق الله العظيم
so it speakes about war and jihad notise that it `s an order not a request ....muslims now are very bad because they nolonger stick to PROPHET MUHAMED INSTRUCTIONS .....DO U that that prophet u insult had ajewish neighbour who used to throw rubbish in front of his door in a certain time and in one day he delayed our prophet went to ask about him as he was ill ....the man become a muslim .....And u insult him with sush words and cartoons
OHona thing left u all hail for israel ....DONT U remember that it`s them who killed THE CHRIST  



23 Feb 2006 @ 18:42 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Origins-to mai_ibrahim
Just for your information, your so-called Prophet was not the one at the source of Islam. Salmane Farsee was. And the religion was not supposed to be a religion to begin with. It was meant to be a social doctrine destined to provide advice to people as to how to behave in society (Obviously, that didn't work). Each time, Muhammed needed advice from Parsee and couldn't find him, he made things up to suit his own personal interests. The things he made up are at the source of the irrational nature of Islam. I was told all this by a man who is actually a Seyed (or descendant of Muhammad), and who is personally an atheist himself.  


23 Feb 2006 @ 18:50 by The Prophet Muhammed @63.240.228.37 : Executive Order
I, the Prophet Muhammad, hereby order all Muslims to shoot themselves in the head. This is and ORDER, not a REQUEST. You have embarassed me and God, with all your childish racket; we are fed up with you. Order must be executed immediately. Have a nice day.  


23 Feb 2006 @ 22:10 by Mona @196.202.90.117 : Cyrus
Cyrus > Your information about Muhammed and the source of Islam need to be corrected my dear.What you've said already is Bullshit.
Muhammed has come up to ask people to worship one God ( Allah ) and leave the old habits of Gahilyia like depriving women from heritage.
When he was exiled out of Mecca to Madina,many has followed him including Salman Faresy ( Faresy means he is from Fares which is an Arabic word for the area of Iran and Iraq nowadays).
Please,before you speak,make sure you have educated yourself good.  



23 Feb 2006 @ 23:14 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Mona
The story of Salman Farsi (the Persian)is that of a Persian TRAITOR that caused the downfall of the Sassanian Empire. Some scholars claim that he was the one that brought the social aspects of Islam to Muhammed, since he had lived in a complex, organized society. I wouldn't think that a desert dweller like Muhammed would have had a clue as to how to organize a society or how people should behave in a society. Of course, you might tell me that he was a prophet and that therefore he was divinely inspired. However, that's just the same as some fanatical shiites that claim Khomeini was a holy man sent by God (and many of them claim such a thing, up to the point of saying his face is on one side of the moon). Unless you know someone, who knew someone, who knew someone who knew Muhammed and Salman themselves, I wouldn't believe outright what books and people tell you about him. That's just my opinion; believe whatever you want.  


24 Feb 2006 @ 03:12 by Mona @196.202.90.117 : Cyrus
If it is up to your beliefs,then better not to confuse others and turn them into facts.
Mohammed was inspired from God...and if you see the Quran in Arabic,you'll see it organized in an amazing rythm that can never be done by a man who used to live in Mecca desert.That means it is never made up.
I believe like u that Khomini is an asshole.Don't give a shit to what he is saying.He fate is Hell already.  



24 Feb 2006 @ 19:28 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : My quotes from a man
"If it is up to your beliefs,then better not to confuse others and turn them into facts."

Actually I am just quoting a friend of mine, who is a well-educated man. He is a direct descendant of Muhammed (Seyyed) and doesn't believe for one second that his ancestor was a prophet. As they say," Family knows best". Of course what I'm saying is not FACT. It is speculation with the same value as saying Muhammed is a prophet or Jesus is the son of God (if there even is a God to begin with).

"and if you see the Quran in Arabic,you'll see it organized in an amazing rythm that can never be done by a man who used to live in Mecca desert.That means it is never made up."

Actually, after Muhammed's death (again according to the man I mentioned above), Salman Farsi told all of Muhammed's followers to write one and only one book: The Koran, in order to avoid having a fragmented "religion", such as Christianity. The goal was to avoid repeating what happened with the Bible, since the Bible has several books by several people, who interpreted the same events differently. Of course, Salman believed that the structure of the Bible left the door wide open to schisms within Christianity and internal fighting over factions siding with one interpretation over another within the same book. Obviously, he was wrong, since fanatics interpret the Koran the way they want. Moreover, Muhammed DID NOT WRITE the Koran, nor receive it from God nor an angel or whatever. Yes, I have heard people tell me the the archangel Gabriel gave the book to him with a nice gift-wrapping. Believe what you want, but this is another way of looking at the story, and one that comes from someone (the man mentioned above) who obviously has no interest in claiming that his ancestor was not a prophet. I should add that he has read some books in regards to the subject. I can give you the names of these books if you're interested.

"you'll see it organized in an amazing rythm that can never be done by a man"

There are many poems that have beautiful, amazing rhythms and are written by mere mortals. The fact that mankind landed on the moon is amazing; this does not mean that God "helped" out and built the rockets or whatnot. Einstein advanced physics in really amazing ways. This does not mean that he was inspired by God or spoke with God in his sleep. Mankind is capable of amazing things and of the worst, most despicable things. You don't need to get God involved in the equation. I think, if he exists, he must actually be fed up of hearing people use his name for the most horrible, ridiculous reasons.  



24 Feb 2006 @ 20:42 by genesis akau @196.47.90.130 : well i see nothing wrong in the cartoon.
THAT CARTOON WAS NOT REALLY BAD BCOS WE ALL SEE THAT ISLAM IS A RELIGION THAT PROMOTE TERORISM.WELL TO ME,IT SEMS NOTHING TO ME.REMEMBER THAT MOHAMMED IS JUST A COMMON MAN AND IS EVEN DEAD.BYE AND THANKS.  


24 Feb 2006 @ 21:28 by Mona @196.202.90.184 : Cyrus
Cyrus, Again, You didn't read the Quran.
The Quran doesn't only have instructions and morals.
it has Ayat(verses) that are attached to situations that happened in Prophet Muhammed's time.It is like Gabriel orders Muhammed - through these verses- to do so and so toward a certain situation.The Quran wasn't given wrapped to Muhammed my dear.It was inspired to him through 23 years and each verses he got inspired with has fitted a certain situation.
The Rythem I tell you about is not poetry.It is a rythem that has never been immitated by any Arab human being until now,not a normal poem.Plus, The Quran has predictions of what will come after Muhammed's and Salman's death that has really happened exactly as Quran told about it.If you understand Arabic Cyrus,you'll understand what I'm saying.QURAN IS A MIRACLE.
Your friend is maybe an atheist or a communist - Really Dunno- but never a source, even if people call him well educated.
I advice you to refer to sources...real ones ( not ones like the books you mentioned) and discover why Islam is being the fastest growing religion regardless of what is said about its reputation.  



24 Feb 2006 @ 21:54 by vibrani : Have you ever, Mona,
compared the Koran to the Old Testament? Ever read the Old Testament? Islam the fastest growing religion? Hmmmm....perhaps it's because Muslims have many children? Perhaps it's because people are so lost they're trying something new thinking it will lead them to God? A fad. Like a pet rock, like Buddhism was in the 60's and 70's.  


24 Feb 2006 @ 23:15 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Mona
"The Quran doesn't only have instructions and morals.
it has Ayat(verses) that are attached to situations that happened in Prophet Muhammed's time.It is like Gabriel orders Muhammed - through these verses- to do so and so toward a certain situation.It was inspired to him through 23 years and each verses he got inspired with has fitted a certain situation.
"

Well, from what I have heard and repeated two or three times here, I don't believe any angel came and ordered him anything. I do agree when you say: "It was inspired to him through 23 years and each verses he got inspired with has fitted a certain situation". Yes, it was inspired to him by his own brain. That is exactly what occurred when his sexual desires or love or hunger for wealth "inspired" him to make up a rule allowing men to have more than 1 wife, so that he could effectively marry more than once. What a Cassanova he was!!And if he was inspired by God and if Jesus was also a prophet, why is that Jesus promotes monogamy and Muhammed promotes polygamy. Was God confused or drunk when he "inspired" them??

"The Rythem I tell you about is not poetry.It is a rythem that has never been immitated by any Arab human being until now,not a normal poem"

How about other human beings?? You know there are other people (non-arabs) that wrote documents with lots of rhythm. What is a "normal" poem anyway?? Let me inform you that this whole monotheism and heaven/hell mumbo jumbo did not originte with Islam or Christianity. It existed way before in Judaism and Zoroastrianism and I'm sure other religions/beliefs that are even older. So as far as the whole paradise issue, which probably does appear in the Koran, the only thing Muhammed or the authors of the Koran were inspired by was: other religions. And furthermore, what if the real historical Muhammed was illiterate like many others at the time? Then he didn't write a thing.

"The Quran has predictions of what will come after Muhammed's and Salman's death that has really happened exactly as Quran told about it."

The bible and Nostradamus enthusiasts also claim that "their book" prophesizes about things to come and about things that have already happened. I can buy Dr.Seuss' "Cat in the Hat" and interpret any line into a prophecy. That's very easy.

"QURAN IS A MIRACLE"

Really??Why is it a miracle??

"Your friend is maybe an atheist or a communist - Really Dunno- but never a source, even if people call him well educated."

Really?? So I am assuming that a book written by someone you never met or spoke to is a reliable source?? What do you know about Muhammed?? Do you really believe everything the KOran tells you?? Then by the same token, you should believe everything the media tells you. The point is, there are many books that have rhythm, morals and that are written by AUTHORS that are not any more inspired than you or me. And, just because someone taught you that Muhammed is holy and that the KOran is the word of God, doesn't mean you have to believe them and then try to defend them. You are just blindly defending it without even questioning it. Now, it is one thing to say that a book is beautiful, that it is poetic and has rhythm, but a takes a leap of faith (that you visibly have taken) to go on from there and say that God had anything to do with it. Believe in what you want to believe in; that is your choice. But, at least question it once, before defending it. If you have questioned it and still believe in it, then good for you.  



25 Feb 2006 @ 00:46 by Mona @196.202.91.70 : Cyrus
so what if I told you that I had really questioned it when I was a teenager and started from the root: The existance of God.
Due to some meditation,deep thinking and reading books that expresses an atheist point of view ( in which I found a great mess and denial) and a point of view that shows evidences of God which were so reasonable and led me to believe the existance of God.
God = religion
So, I looked in sources and holy books of Jewdaism,Christianity and Islam.
Jeudaism was repulsive and very materialistic and bloody.
I put more effort into Christianity: visited churches,met priests,read Bible but none of them could answer my questions or satisfy my insticts,specially when I saw a priest kissing statues and pictures of dead people plus seeing people standing on a raw kissing his hands in a prefuctorial way...I was disgusted.
Then Islam came along and God ! it didn't only answer my questions,it gave me some kind of strength for life.
You said if I questioned it and still believe in it it is good,right?So how is it now?

P.S: Muslim man can not marry 4 wives except under 3 conditions:
1. his 1st wife has a real undeniable defect.
2.His 1st wife must AGREE on his marriage,otherwise,he is not allowed.
3.He must treat both wives in an even way: emotionally and financially.

at the end, Cyrus, at least I did what you didn't do...I didn't care for what others told me...I looked in resources and found the truth myself.
I'm not telling you to submit for Islam,I'm telling you to read.
 



25 Feb 2006 @ 02:06 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Mona
"at the end, Cyrus, at least I did what you didn't do...I didn't care for what others told me"

I was quoting someone and I did some research on the subject, so I didn't take his word for it, as they say.


"God = religion"

I totally and absolutely disagree with this simplistic equation. God (if he exists) is much more than that. I believe an entity you call "God" exists and put order into chaos, just like the catalyst in chemical reactions. He or It balanced out universal equations that apply to all things. I guess for me, the evidence of God is in science itself. But, we all have our own ways of seeing it. However, saying that God=religion is belittling the very God you venerate.

"God = religion
So, I looked in sources and holy books of Jewdaism,Christianity and Islam"

Please do not assume that one can only find God in these three "religions" as it seems that you are implying. Not only is God everywhere, but there are many, many beliefs pertaining to his existence. I know that many believers in one of these three faiths assume that anyone outside of these faiths is an atheist, which is ridiculously wrong.

"P.S: Muslim man can not marry 4 wives except under 3 conditions:
1. his 1st wife has a real undeniable defect.
2.His 1st wife must AGREE on his marriage,otherwise,he is not allowed.
3.He must treat both wives in an even way: emotionally and financially."

Again, this is opposite to what the Christ said. And if you assume that he is also a prophet then God must be confused (which I certainly don't believe; I actually believe that he never sent anyone or inspired anyone on Earth; why would he bother??). Here is also a perfect example of how these three conditions can be easily satisfied by any Muslim male, regardless of what the wife wants:

1. He can easily find an undeniable defect in his wife, since all human beings have defects. Furthermore, since in Islam, his testimony counts double that of his wife's, he has double the arguments.

2. In some countries, the wife AGREES or is divorced, or worse thrown into the street. You can force "your wife" to agree.

3. Of course since he wants two wives, he'll probably treat them "emotionally" (Gangbang-galore)and "financially" the same way.

And besides, it is really strange (to me) to just follow "rules" dictated by someone else 1,000 years ago in a different context, a different place and a different time, like the one above. We must strive to understand why doing some things are unjust or unfair to others, instead of just following rules like mathematical equations, without understanding the context around them. And we shouldn't follow rules out of fear of God, or Hell or whatever. Doing so, would mean that if proof came about that God doesn't exist, the rules would fall apart and the world would go into chaos. However, understanding that stealing or killing ultimately hurts ourselves and others, is an undeniable fact that is independent of whether dogma X or Y is true or not. These books were created to guide people in an age where the mass was uneducated (and to some extent to control them) and unable to understand things in a scientific or logical way. As much as such an approach made sense one thousand years ago, mankind's progress and enlightment is such ,today, that people can understand life without resorting to rules and fabulations created eons ago.

If you have truly found your path and questioned yourself in finding it, than I commend you and respect your choice.  



25 Feb 2006 @ 02:40 by vibrani : Aha
see that? Once again - ask most Muslims if they can read about another religion, if they know about another religion, and they ignore it, because they ONLY want YOU to kowtow to Islam, no matter how they sugar coat it. Everything to justify Islam as being sane. Mona, if you were confused meditating on your own, then I am sure you didn't get yourself or God. Why is it that Muslim women can't have more than one husband?!  


25 Feb 2006 @ 07:29 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : goodbye
well this is my last post forever all. have a nice life and muslims don't watch any cartoons...  


25 Feb 2006 @ 07:34 by vibrani : Muslim Refusenik
The site of author Irshad Manji, who wrote "The Trouble with Islam Today" [link] BRAVA!!!! She says what I do - why not question what you're being taught? Why not think for yourself and still be a Muslim? Why not realize the mirror that you are seeing of yourselves in the cartoons and change your image by changing yourselves?

Here's her ( a Muslim's) article on the cartoon hysteria:
[link]
Enjoy

As refugees from Idi Amin's Uganda, my family and I settled just outside of Vancouver in 1972. I grew up attending two types of schools: the secular public school of most North American kids and then, for several hours at a stretch every Saturday, the Islamic religious school (madressa).

I couldn't quite reconcile the open and tolerant world of my public school with the rigid and bigoted world inside my madressa. But I had enough faith to ask questions -- plenty of them.

My first question for my madressa teacher was, "Why can't girls lead prayer?" I graduated to asking more nuanced questions, such as, "If the Koran came to Prophet Muhammad as a message of peace, why did he command his army to kill an entire Jewish tribe?"

You can imagine that such questions irritated the hell out of my madressa teacher, who routinely put down women and trashed the Jews. He and I reached the ultimate impasse over yet another question: "Where," I asked, "is the evidence of the 'Jewish conspiracy' against Islam? You love to talk about it, but what's the proof?" That question, posed at the age of 14, got me booted out of the madressa. Permanently.

I carry a torch in one hand
And a bucket of water with the other
With these things, I will set fire to Heaven
And put out the flames of Hell
So that no one worship God
Out of fear of Hell
Or greed of Heaven.

- Rabia, Sufi Muslim heroine of mine
At this point, I had a choice to make: I could walk away from my Muslim faith and get on with being my "emancipated" North American self, or I could give Islam another chance. Out of fairness to the faith, I gave Islam another chance. And another. And another. For the past 20 years, I've been educating myself about Islam. As a result, I've discovered a progressive side of my religion -- in theory.

But I remain a hugely ambivalent Muslim because of what's happening "on the ground" -- massive human rights violations, particularly against women and religious minorities -- in the name of Allah.

Liberal Muslims say that what I'm describing isn't "true" Islam. But these Muslims should own up to something: Prophet Muhammad himself said that religion is the way we conduct ourselves toward others. By that standard, how Muslims actually behave is Islam, and to sweep that reality under the rug of theory is to absolve ourselves of any responsibility for our fellow human beings.

That's why I'm struggling. That's why I'm passionate. And that's why I call myself a Muslim Refusenik.

A Muslim Refusenik is...

By Muslim Refusenik, I don't mean I refuse to be a Muslim. If I did, why would I care enough to write a book that puts me on the front lines of anger, hate, even death threats? By Muslim Refusenik, I mean I refuse to join an army of automatons in the name of Allah. Many Muslims applaud Jewish Refuseniks -- those soldiers who protest the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. In the same spirit of conscientious dissent, we've got to protest the ideological occupation of Muslim minds. An occupation perpetrated by our own mullahs, imams and civic leaders.

Irshad engaging Muslims in Rotterdam, Netherlands
In that spirit, I'm asking Muslims in the West a very basic question: Will we remain spiritually infantile, caving to cultural pressures to clam up and conform, or will we mature into full-fledged citizens, defending the very pluralism that allows us to be in this part of the world in the first place?
My question for non-Muslims is equally basic: Will you succumb to the intimidation of being called "racists," or will you finally challenge us Muslims to take responsibility for our role in what ails Islam?

The Trouble with Islam Today is a wake-up call for honesty and change on everybody's part. Through the book and this website, let's create conversations where none existed before.  



25 Feb 2006 @ 09:20 by vibrani : HBO
If you get HBO, and the Bill Maher show (Real Time) - tune in this weekend to see her on the program.  


25 Feb 2006 @ 22:37 by Hanan Taha @196.202.90.201 : To Vibrani
Vibrani,Wether we agree or disagree,I specially feel quite curious about your way of thinking.I was copying all the links provided in this thread and I found most of them from you and really envy you for the time provided to search for them.
Anyway,I decided to be more enlightened and look for the missing puzzle pieces,so if you can send me more links (specially like that of Irshad Minji's plus those of how the west interpret Islam),please do.

One more thing is that I see some people are confused about Muhammed and his message,please see this link,maybe it will shed some light:
[link]

Regards  



26 Feb 2006 @ 08:46 by vibrani : Yes, Hanan
to be continued via email.  


28 Feb 2006 @ 02:11 by palestinian christian @83.244.101.38 : hanan
to be enlightened it is not enough to talk the talk but you have to walk the walk which is something very few people can do. no link or book can teach the way because if you are not ready to understand,you will not.Part of being enlightened is not to jugde others "as to that it is not wise to judge information" but if you must you should judge with compassion knowing that none of us are without fault.The reason i am writing you is because of the danger in knowledge that is "enlightened" like the claims made on this page .
To seek this knwoledge you first have to have a clean heart and soul and you should keep love as your advisor for all your activities and thoughts.
Bottom line look inside your self you will find a great guide once you get past all the feelings and emotions. May god grant you what you are looking for.  



3 Mar 2006 @ 10:36 by Uzh-uzh @210.210.128.68 : They who makes this jokes was blind!!!
"Laailahailallah mohammadarosullah..." Denmark will destroy by themselves  


5 Mar 2006 @ 02:42 by Dr. E. Rageb @84.58.12.73 : Islam= One God for All.
The uncalled-for caricature had jumped over the weak Islamic governments causing a direct hit to peaceful Moslems all over the world resulting in an irreparable damage.
If this is the extent of knowledge about Islam and prophet Mohammad at the level of a reputable newspaper, I wonder what it is among the Danish population!
Regards
Below is the only option for peaceful Moslems to reply, it is also a Caricature!!
BarCode prefix of Danish products 570–579  



7 Mar 2006 @ 03:09 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Uzh_Uzh and Dr. E. Rageb
Dear Gentlemen,

Get a life!!! What does a second rate newspaper have to do with Denmark as a country? Have you people gone absolutely MAD?? You take a caricature in a newspaper and assume that the entire population of Denmark drew it or are responsible for it. You are just like little children. Gagagoogoo...I think its time you changed your diapers.

"Islam=One God for All"

WHAT??? What the hell are you talking about??? Islam in its origins was an economico-social doctrine. It was a doctrine for social behavior. That you people have transformed it into a religion is just sad. Let me ask you, just out of curiosity, why you go to Mecca and turn around the Kaaba?? I hope you do know that the "black rock" is a fragment of meteorite that fell on earth 1,000-some years ago!
 



8 Mar 2006 @ 11:08 by Dr. P. Andersen @86.52.105.106 : Islam= war and dead to all
Who cares what a bunch of ignorant muslims are thinking!!!  


8 Mar 2006 @ 15:20 by Dr. P. Andersen @86.52.105.106 : Islam= war and dead to all
By Brigitte Gabriel:_ _ _ I was ten years old when my home exploded around me, burying me under the rubble and leaving me to drink my blood to survive, as the perpetrators shouted “Allah Akbar!” My only crime was that I was a Christian living in a Christian town. At 10 years old, I learned the meaning of the word "infidel." I had a crash course in survival. Not in the Girl Scouts, but in a bomb shelter where I lived for seven years in pitch darkness, freezing cold, drinking stale water and eating grass to live. At the age of 13 I dressed in my burial clothes going to bed at night, waiting to be slaughtered. By the age of 20, I had buried most of my friends--killed by Muslims. We were not Americans living in New York, or Britons in London.

We were Arab Christians living in Lebanon. As a victim of Islamic terror, I was amazed when I saw Americans waking up on September 12, 2001, and asking themselves "Why do they hate us?" The psychoanalyst experts were coming up with all sort of excuses as to what did we do to offend the Muslim World. But if America and the West were paying attention to the Middle East they would not have had to ask the question. Simply put, they hate us because we are defined in their eyes by one simple word: "infidels." Under the banner of Islam "la, ilaha illa allah, muhammad rasoulu allah," (None is god except Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) they murdered Jewish children in Israel, massacred Christians in Lebanon, killed Copts in Egypt, Assyrians in Syria, Hindus in India, and expelled almost 900,000 Jews from Muslim lands.

We Middle Eastern infidels paid the price then. Now infidels worldwide are paying the price for indifference and shortsightedness. Tolerating evil is a crime. Appeasing murderers doesn't buy protection. It earns one disrespect and loathing in the enemy's eyes. Yet apathy is the weapon by which the West is committing suicide. Political correctness forms the shackles around our ankles, by which Islamists are leading us to our demise. America and the West are doomed to failure in this war unless they stand up and identify the real enemy: Islam. You hear about Wahabbi and Salafi Islam as the only extreme form of Islam. All the other Muslims, supposedly, are wonderful moderates.

Closer to the truth are the pictures of the irrational eruption of violence in reaction to the cartoons of Mohammed printed by a Danish newspaper. From burning embassies, to calls to butcher those who mock Islam, to warnings that the West be prepared for another holocaust, those pictures have given us a glimpse into the real face of the enemy. News pictures and video of these events represent a canvas of hate decorated by different nationalities who share one common ideology of hate, bigotry and intolerance derived from one source: authentic Islam.

An Islam that is awakening from centuries of slumber to re-ignite its wrath against the infidel and dominate the world. An Islam which has declared "Intifada" on the West. America and the West can no longer afford to lay in their lazy state of overweight ignorance. The consequences of this mental disease are starting to attack the body, and if they don't take the necessary steps now to control it, death will be knocking soon. If you want to understand the nature of the enemy we face, visualize a tapestry of snakes. They slither and they hiss, and they would eat each other alive, but they will unite in a hideous mass to achieve their common goal of imposing Islam on the world. This is the ugly face of the enemy we are fighting. We are fighting a powerful ideology that is capable of altering basic human instincts.

An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death. A perfect example is a recently elected Hamas official in the Palestinian Territories who raves in heavenly joy about sending her three sons to death and offering the ones who are still alive for the cause. It is an ideology that is capable of offering highly educated individuals such as doctors and lawyers far more joy in attaining death than any respect and stature, life in society is ever capable of giving them.

The United States has been a prime target for radical Islamic hatred and terror. Every Friday, mosques in the Middle East ring with shrill prayers and monotonous chants calling death, destruction and damnation down on America and its people. The radical Islamists’ deeds have been as vile as their words. Since the Iran hostage crisis, more than three thousand Americans have died in a terror campaign almost unprecedented in its calculated cruelty along with thousands of other citizens worldwide. Even the Nazis did not turn their own children into human bombs, and then rejoice at their deaths as well the deaths of their victims.

This intentional, indiscriminate and wholesale murder of innocent American citizens is justified and glorified in the name of Islam. America cannot effectively defend itself in this war unless and until the American people understand the nature of the enemy that we face. Even after 9/11 there are those who say that we must “engage” our terrorist enemies, that we must “address their grievances”. Their grievance is our freedom of religion. Their grievance is our freedom of speech. Their grievance is our democratic process where the rule of law comes from the voices of many not that of just one prophet. It is the respect we instill in our children towards all religions. It is the equality we grant each other as human beings sharing a planet and striving to make the world a better place for all humanity.

Their grievance is the kindness and respect a man shows a woman, the justice we practice as equals under the law, and the mercy we grant our enemy. Their grievance cannot be answered by an apology for who or what we are. Our mediocre attitude of not confronting Islamic forces of bigotry and hatred wherever they raised their ugly head in the last 30 years, has empowered and strengthened our enemy to launch a full scale attack on the very freedoms we cherish in their effort to impose their values and way of life on our civilization. If we don't wake up and challenge our Muslim community to take action against the terrorists within it, if we don't believe in ourselves as Americans and in the standards we should hold every patriotic American to, we are going to pay a price for our delusion. For the sake of our children and our country, we must wake up and take action. In the face of a torrent of hateful invective and terrorist murder, America’s learning curve since the Iran hostage crisis is so shallow that it is almost flat. The longer we lay supine, the more difficult it will be to stand erect.  



8 Mar 2006 @ 23:35 by Mona @196.202.91.219 : Islam is not a religion????
Oh plz,don't make me laugh....
A true story,to whom who claims that Islam is not a religion:

[link]

cheers.  



9 Mar 2006 @ 00:15 by johnnbyoy @64.136.26.235 : mona and your link
i read with great interest your link about becoming a muslim. at the conclusion i was underwhelmed to say the least. it reads in the end that a great miracle occurred and someone pointed towards the koran. all well and good i suppose. reading the link did nothing to turn my faith in christ, my redeemer. and to think that this convert had to go to some official government sanctioned religious body just to convert. my faith, the real faith, christianity, simply says that if i profess christ as my lord and savior and repent of my sins, then i can be a christian. no imperfect human led government entities involved, just my faith. perfect in it's simplicity. but what if this muslim convert wants to go back to his original faith? he/she will probably be at least stigmatized, at worst killed. that's the difference between christianity today and islam. cheers! (by the way, that's a toast involving alcohol. i thought alcohol was against the teaching of the queeran. lamo).  


9 Mar 2006 @ 01:49 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Mona; your link is questionable
The reasons for this guy to convert to Islam are highly dubious. Citing verses and whatever out of any book and claiming that they are divine, is really suspicious. This gentleman seemed to cite passages out of the bible and the koran to prove the non-provable. You people seem to constantly say that the koran is "so perfect", that God only could have written it. That is rubbish. I have said it a million times, Salman Parsi helped write the koran. And don't give me this rubbish that Salman was a poor wandering follower stuck in a tree. This does not belittle the fact that it contains a complex social doctrine, much like the US constitution. And quite frankly, I have heard verses translated into English, and it isn't that impossible for a human to write. And, if God truly is the author, why wouldn't he put it on a mountain into the rock, or inscribe it in the sky, so that everyone can see??? You mean that God is so poor, he could only afford to write his Words in a book??? If that's the case, God needs a better PR agent. Neither the Christians, nor the Jews, nor anyone else claims their book was written by God, so why should you?? Why is YOUR religion true and all others not true?? It seems that the author of your link believes that only Islam is true. And saying that Islam was not imposed by force onto people is ABSOLUTE LUDICROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Islam was imposed BY FORCE in Persia. And those that didn't accept it, lived as second class citizens or fled persecution (like the Parsees that fled to India). We can thank Omar and his army of fanatical idiots for that. I hope he burns in hell...  


9 Mar 2006 @ 08:08 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : laughable, cyrus
all in all cyrus, i would say that her link is laughable. not only does the link not go into specific details as to why islam is supposedly better than christianity, it just seems to claim islam is better just because islam is better. now of course being a christian, i will be biased, but i will go into detail, verse for verse, to counter any claims made by muslims as to the superiority of their religion. however, it would not matter if they could somehow prove that theirs was right and mine was wrong, because i'm just a stubborn old mule anyway. that being said, no islam was not the only one claiming that their book is the word of god. christians claim it too. i claim it. i don't understand all of it, but i claim it. i know that rankles you cyrus, but hell, that's just who i am. lmao. everything can't be rationalized...but you and i both know that the greatest threat to my faith and your rationalism comes from only one source in the world today: islam. not to many christian terrorists flying planes into buildings, huh? i know how you feel about religions in general, and i have no problem with that. but if given the choice cyrus, if you HAD to choose, what religion would you go with between the two? present day christianity, which preaches love and forgiveness, or islam, which preaches to martyr yourself so that you can get to heaven with a lot virgins? which stands on more solid ground morally? in today's modern world? cyrus, i think i know which religion you would choose if you HAD to...food for thought eh?  


9 Mar 2006 @ 08:38 by vibrani : Islamic law is now being forced
onto Palestinians, no matter if they are Christian or not.  


9 Mar 2006 @ 11:59 by Jay Weaver @82.160.142.2 : Denmark vs Mohammed
We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed.

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon. They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"  



9 Mar 2006 @ 13:07 by Mona @196.202.91.64 : Who is the real fool?
I kinda expected your reactions to my link.
I'm a Muslim,living in Lebanon with Christians and I have many friends from them.No one is being forced to enter Islam as you claim.
Indeed,those who converts to Islam from Christianity are being killed by their Christian family.I once hid a christian girl in my home until we can settle the situation with her family and police.
I've Muslim relatives in Israel whose Christian friends are being murdered by Israeli's.
Cheers.  



9 Mar 2006 @ 15:00 by Mona @196.202.91.82 : Small comment
Muslim Scientists ( Sheikhs) has demanded for a serious dialogue with Denmark and the Prime Minister has agreed.Next Sunday will be the conference.
Mr/Amr Khaled ( the most popular and lovable Sheikh to Muslims) will take the lead.
This is his message from his site when the tension has started:
[link]

I see you put links of people tortured by Muslims.I also have many many stories of Muslims being tortured by Jews and others.
Does that mean that all the Jews and Muslims are fuckin' assholes?
No, There are bad people everywhere,Muslims,Jewish,Christians,...etc.We can't take a bad Muslim as an example of all Muslims.
In order to stop the hatred wave,we should not generalize.
People convert from Islam because of some bad Muslims.
People convert from Christianity because of some bad Christians.

Got the message?  



9 Mar 2006 @ 18:42 by johnnyboy @64.136.26.235 : mona
to your above post, what message? what are you trying to say? in you first post you have a link about why a christian became a muslim. in that link, it basically stated all the reasons christianity was supposedly bad. then in your next posts, you start ranting about why people shouldn't generalize after you've posted a link about why christianity is wrong. what's wrong? can't stand by your original opinion? sounds like your generalizing christians to me. so much for muslim tolerance. until the day comes, when muslims round of these freaking mullahs that teach death to the west, then i think a few cartoons are probably ok. show respect then you'll get respect. and all that stink about christians being murdered by israelis is just bunk. i read an article in soldier of fortune that stated something like 90 percent of the conflicts today involve freaking muslims. there is a problem in your religion mona. it's been taken over by a bunch of loons. yes there are bad people everywhere. but right now, it seems that majority are concentrated in islam as far as religions are concerned. so, if and when muslims try to come to america and force sharia on me, i'll continue to believe that islam doesn't have my best interests at heart, namely, my freedom. and if muslims do try to force my or my family to convert, they'll get the cold blue barrell of a 3030 in their face. and what's this shit about sheik amr khaled demanding a face to face with the prime minister of denmark? the newspaper that printed these funny cartoons is a private organization, so the sheik's beef should be with the newspaper. and he is demanding? tell him to come demand a face to face with me! about my views on your religion and so called prophet. i'll tell you that he would want to twist his turban into a knot after our little meeting. GOT MY MESSAGE! americans and the west will fight islam to the last man, woman, and child. that is my message to the islamic world. god bless america and the west!  


9 Mar 2006 @ 21:38 by a dane @86.52.105.106 : TO MONA
for your information

see link,
[link]  



10 Mar 2006 @ 02:39 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Johnnyboy / Mona
Johnnyboy, I admit that Christian extremists are much, much less violent than Muslim extremists TODAY. Just as we have said before, I think any extremism is dangerous. And certainly mixing Church with State is very dangerous. Furthermore, I don't recall God writing the Bible directly, since every part of it is "according to someone (John, Peter,etc...)".

Mona,here is a counter-argument to the justification Muslims use to claim God wrote the Koran directly. Their argument is that it is too complex and too "beautiful" for any one man to write. Well here are three small examples of beautiful, complex masterpieces created by Men. The real difference is that these Men were geniuses:

1. Beethoven composed his 9th symphony; a beautiful, highly rhythmical masterpiece. And he wrote it after he became totally DEAF. It came from a human brain, not GOD.

2. Einstein discovered the theory of General Relativity, a highly complex, beautifully "composed" demonstration, that many physicists today still cannot totally comprehend.

3. Isaac Newton discovered gravity and stipulated his now-famous theory of force-acceleration, upon which countless modern inventions are based. He also discovered and invented many other things. Do you think God whispered that to him???

4. The Egyptians built the Pyramids of Giza in a geometrically perfect way, despite the very large and heavy blocks required to build it. Even today, engineers are baffled as to how they succeeded in building such monuments. Do you think it was God that lifted the blocks and put them into place???


Don't confuse Genius with the Divine.

 



10 Mar 2006 @ 02:43 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : Johnnyboy
I think I made it abundantly clear that I would follow those who preach love, peace and compassion, because, in the end, that is all that counts.  


10 Mar 2006 @ 12:41 by palestinian christian @83.244.100.141 : vibrani
I wish you would stop speaking about subjects you know nothing about.
I live in palestine and I do not see anyone forcing me to do anything.  



11 Mar 2006 @ 03:48 by miramar @210.210.58.122 : Islam
So far I know that since the beginning of the religion Islam by Mohammed there started the idea of terrorism. Islam spread to many countries and continents not cos of reaching the peaceful message but with the swords of muslim extremists in their hand and forcefully converting to Islam. In Islam there is no place of respect to other religion and the babies are taught from their childhood that they are the superior of all and other religions are non belivers to God.
In the present world I have practically seen that where there is Muslim there is problem why? Its all because of their thought not to accept the reality of other religion. The leaders of Muslims must first accept the reality of other religion thanonly they will be able to get respect in the present non muslim society but alas their holy book qaran dosent allow this to accpet the reality of others.  



11 Mar 2006 @ 04:23 by miramar @210.210.58.122 : Islam must change
In my opinion Islam must drastically change themselves to live in the present society. The time have come now all the Christians,Jews,Hindus,Buddhists join their hand to fight against the muslim. Until their is a single muslim beleiving in so called Qaran of today we the other religion followers cannot live in peace.  


13 Mar 2006 @ 00:48 by Mona @196.202.91.135 : 2 comments
For the fact that Islam is being forced.There is a verse in Quran that says: " Let there be no compulsion in religion"

About Terrorism in Israel,see this:



Cheers  



13 Mar 2006 @ 15:06 by a dane @86.52.105.106 : ISLAM = DEAD AND WAR!!!
you are a blind and brain-washed fool mona.

cheers  



13 Mar 2006 @ 22:45 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : to Miramar, dane
You don't get it, do you??? Religion itself is the problem here. Unfortunately, it is so easy, so easy for religious moderation to tip towards extremism. As soon as one is told that one's faith is the true faith, the doors towards intolerance are flung open. It is this need to feel superior, to hold the truth (out of fear of the unknowns in life) that can tip anyone towards extremism. However, the irony of it all is that NO ONE holds the truth. All religions could be ludicrous or not. And therefore, religion should be kept to oneself as long as the truth about life, God, etc... is not known. Religion should stipulate possibilites not absolute facts. It is arrogant for anyone to claim that Jesus is better than prophet X or Y, or that Muhammed is the best prophet...Maybe there is no God, or maybe He never even bothered sending someone or something down (or up) to earth. The debate is open and will always be and therefore outlandish claims should remain outlandish.  


13 Mar 2006 @ 23:10 by Cyrus @63.240.228.37 : To Mona / dane
Interesting photo. Of course, we don't know in which context it was taken. The dead man might have been carrying a rifle. Nonetheless, taking a photo of the "kill" like a trophy collection is absolutely despicable. Just as there are bad Palestinians, there are bad Israelis. Regardless of your religion, your goodness or cruelty is a matter of personal character.  


14 Mar 2006 @ 11:15 by johhnyboy @64.136.26.235 : please please please
let this thread die for eternity god. jesus please let these freakin people quit posting on here. let this thread die and rest in peace...  


3 May 2006 @ 02:25 by jane @130.130.37.6 : FMG
When will practices as female genital muitilation stop?

FGM predates Islam and is not practised by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension. Where it is practised by Muslims, religion is frequently cited as a reason. Many of those who oppose mutilation deny that there is any link between the practise and religion, but Islamic leaders are not unanimous on the subject. The Qur'an does not contain any call for FGM, but a few hadith (sayings attributed to the Prophet Muhammad) refer to it. In one case, in answer to a question put to him by 'Um 'Attiyah (a practitioner of FGM), the Prophet is quoted as saying "reduce but do not destroy". Mutilation has persisted among some converts to Christianity. Christian missionaries have tried to discourage the practice, but found it to be too deep rooted. In some cases, in order to keep converts, they have ignored and even condoned the practice.

what is your opinion about this?  



30 May 2006 @ 20:40 by fara @84.67.229.4 : miramar
Wat da fuk!!!! dnt u dare blame da muslims 4 all dis mess its bush dat sould be apologizin nd da danes sould neva eva apologize wat so eva!!!!
God all mighty!!  



22 Jun 2006 @ 20:50 by Tore Toivicco @85.235.245.7 : Tore Toiviccos notes and opinions about
Tore Toiviccos notes and opinions about control societies and ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER:
*****
WHEN DID YOU LAST TIME READ YOUR NEWSPAPER TELLING YOU ABOUT ILLUMINATI OR SECRET SOCIETIES MEMBERSHIPS OF LEADING POLITICIANS OF YOUR COUNTRY?
*****
There is a government above governments:THE ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER.
*****
CONTROL SOCIETY:
-INTERNET CONTROL(THERE MAY NOT BE UNCONTROLLED INTERNET CONNECTIONS)
-TELEPHONES CONTROLLED(ALL CONVERSATIONS AND LOCATIONS ARE REGISTERED BY DIGITAL NETWORKS= ANY CONVERSATION CAN BE RECREATED AND LOCATION AND TIME CONTROLLED,BY USING HIGH TECHOLOGY INTELLIGENCES MAY ALSO RECOGNIZE IDENTITIES OF PERSONS TALKING).
-------
3 MOST BIG BUSINESSES ON EARTH:
1.GUN/WAR INDUSTRY
2.DRUGS
3.OIL
*****
Said by BILL GATES(WHEN HE SUDDENLY RETIRED,ALBEIT HE WAS EAGERLY DEVELOPING MICROSOFT ALL THE TIME AND PLANNED FUTURE MOVES...):"I CARE ABOUT MY CHILDREN."...
*****
IT'S REVEALING THAT COUNTRIES WHICH TRADITIONALLY HAS PRODUCED MOST OF PORN ON THE EARTH:DENMARK,GERMANY,BENELUX,FRANCE AND USA-ALL ARE CONNECTED TO ILLUMINATI.
*****
64% of all drugs are used in USA?(THAT IS SATANIC WORLD ORDERS METHOD TO DESTROY USA?)
*****
TINY INCIDENTS HAVE MANY TIMES STARTED HUGE BAD THINGS:
-GERMAN REICHSTAG FIRE ESTABLISHED NAZI REGIME IN GERMANY.
-911/WTC STARTED IRAN WAR
-SHOTS OF MIANILA STARTED WAR BETWEEN FINLAND AND SOVJET RUSSIA(an alleged Finnish artillery attack ).
-cause of WWI was the assassination of Franz Ferdinand.
-Pearl Harbour caused USA joining to WW2
-Mohammed-drawings of JP-newspaper in Denmark,has provoked all muslims of the world
-It has been said that f.ex. all riots in ghettos in USA,were caused by media and news.

ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER CAN BE BEHIND THESE KIND OF THINGS AND THIS WAY MANIPULATE MASSES?
*****
By the way - when internet AND MOBILES came public, it was first used by spreading porn and satanology.This is explained by ILLUMINATI control society:
SOURCE:
[link]

*****
ISRAEL IS AN ILLUMINATI-COUNTRY,THAT'S WHY IT CREATES PROBLEMS?:
ILLUMINATI BEHIND ASSASSINATIONS-PROOF and Wars-CONFLICTS(F.EX. JP/POLITIKEN-provocation):
SOURCE:DAVID ICKE [link]
SOURCE:DAVID ICKE:..When, like the Rothschilds, you control the media, the politicians, and the stock-market, making money is child’s play and so is starting wars...":

:"...Kennedy’s car in the foreground has no security guards, but the one behind has four! Assassinations don’t just happen, they are allowed to happen..."
SOURCE:Israel/DAVID ICKE: "..Israel is not the land of the Jews, it is the land of the Rothschilds
and those who dictate to them from even higher up the Brotherhood pyramid. They created Israel and they control it..."
-----
*****
Said by POP-ARTIST,POLITICIAN,Tore Toivicco:
"Hopefully, I`ll be remembered as the person who brought an end to SATANISM-BULLSHIT AND f.ex.Charles Manson and MARILYN MONROE-TYPE MIND CONTROL SATANISM OF ILLUMINATI."(3.2.2006,Denmark)

[ sources/links/quotes:
[link]
http://www.ctrl.org/essay2/MCIJFKA3.html
[link] ]

*****
IT'S POSSIBLE TO STOP DRUGS.ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER TRIES TO MAKE ALMOST ALL PEOPLE TO USE DRUGS?GOVERNMENTS CAN STOP DRUG TRADE IF THEY WANT.BUT DRUG TRADE IS BIGGEST BUSINESS ON THE EARTH AMONGST WAR INDUSTRY...
_______
ILLUMINATI:ANYTHING CAN BE STOPPED BY AN ELECTRIC SIGNAL OR A COMPUTER VIRUS.
-----
INTERNET IS A MODERN "JUNGLE DRUM".
_____
INTERNET HAS DELETED OUR HUMAN RIGHTS?
*****
THIS IS NOT ONLY PROBLEM FOR US WHO ARE STOPPED.IT'S ALSO PROBLEM FOR EVERYONE,BECAUSE F.EX. THIS ALLOWS CRIMINALS BECOMING SUCCESSFUL AND RULE THE WORLD.
*****
MOST OF MY WRITINGS MAY FEEL CRAZY,BUT MORE YOU KNOW ABOUT THESE THINGS THE MORE YOU UNDERSTAND TO BE TRUE.(THOUGH I CAN BE WRONG REGARDING SOME THINGS).
*****-
CROP CIRCLES IS A TEST? DONE BY HIGH INTELLIGENCES (NASA?) OR UFOS - TO TEST HOW THE WORLD REACTS? OR SYMBOLS GIVEN US THIS WAY,ARE MEANT TO AFFECT OUR MINDS OR TEST OUR INTELLIGENCE? CROP CIRCLES MAYBE HAVE BEEN SO DEMANDING TO DO THAT IT'S OBVIOUS THAT NO MAN HAS DONE THEM.
*****
IT'S STRANGE THAT NEWS ARE ALL THE TIME CLAIMING THAT STATE NEED MORE INTELLIGENCE AND POLICES,ALBEIT IT WAS NOT LACK OF DATA REGARDING 911 OR OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS.BUT GOVERNMENT NEGLECTED TO LISTEN THEIR DATA.INSTEAD THERE IS DATA WHICH SAYS THAT INTELLIGENCES WERE INVOLVED TO 911- THEREFORE WE COULD SAY THAT INTELLIGENCES ARE ACTUALLY TERRORISTS.
-----*****
IF ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDERS WOULDN'T OMIT INVESTIGATING OR SUPPORTING THESE SUBJECTS(INSTEAD OF SUPPORTING WAR INDUSTRY),WE WOULD HAVE:
-FISSION NUCLEAR TECHOLOGY
-OZONE HEALING
-FREEDOM FROM PSYCHIATRIC ABUSES,DRUGS,NUCLEAR BOMBS.
-PAINLESS TEETH CARE
-ALL HEALTH PROBLEMS SOLVED.
-ELECTRIC CARS(OR "AEROPLANES").
*****
WE ALL KNOW WHAT NAZISM IS,BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHO WERE MEN BEHIND NAZISM: ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER? THIS EXPLAINS WHY HIGH NAZIS NEVER WERE JUDGED: F.EX.AFTER WW2 LISCHKA LIVED IN KOELN(Cologne,Kln),EICHMANN IN ARGENTINA AND KLAUS BARBIE IN BOLIVIA.
-----*****
ABOUT WAR:
George Orwell: “The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous.
A hierarchical society is only possible and the basis of poverty and ignorance.
In principle, the war effort is always planned to keep society of the brink of starvation.
The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects.
And its object is not victory over Eurasia or Eastasia, but to keep the very structure of society intact."
TORE TOIVICCO: "BUT FOR SURE WAR INDUSTRY MAKES MONEY OUT OF IT,AND SATANISTS MAY CREATE WAR IN ORDER TO CREATE DESTRUCTION, KILLING AND EVILNESS."
*****
ILLUMINATI CAN ALWAYS CONTROL WHO WINS OR LOSES WARS,BECAUSE ILLUMINATI CONTROLS WAR-INDUSTRY AND GUN-TRADE?
-----
"CREATING CHAOS AND THEN GIVING A SOLUTION.LOOK EVERYTHING IN SOCIETY THINKING THIS.THEY LET DRUGS COME, THEN THEY DEMAND MORE RIGHTS TO POLICE =WAY TO CREATE A CONTROL SOCIETY." :

A careful reading of Anthony Sutton's works, WALL STREET AND THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION and WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER will reveal that the wealthiest individuals in the world (including John D. Rockefeller and Prescott Bush) financed the left wing Bolsheviks and the right wing Nazis and clashed them in war for profit and power. The two Wall Street firms most in the forefront of the financing of the Bolshevik revolution were J.P. MORGAN and BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN. A full half of the board of directors of these two firms were former members of SKULL AND BONES at YALE!! Percy Rockefeller, Prescott Bush and Roland Harriman were in the same pledge class.

This group intends to control both sides of every conflict. Fletcher Prouty's book, JFK, VIETNAM AND THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY provide an insider's viewpoint of how these same centers of finance stay on top by controlling both Communist and anti-Communist armies.

[link]
---------
"REAL NAZIS WEAR SUITS AND ARE IN HIGH PLACES IN SOCIETY."
KKK HAS MASONIC ROOTS. Illuminati was behind nazi-Germany.
________________

THEIR GOAL IS TO LEAVE ONLY 2 BILLION PEOPLE ALIVE OUT OF 6 BILLION PEOPLE WE HAVE NOW.
-----------
UN KILLS, NAZIS THERE?
-----*****
SLEEP INNS WAS A GOOD IDEA,BUT ILLUMINATI HAS STOPPED THEM?SLEEP INNS MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR EVERYONE TO TRAVEL FREELY,AND SLEEP INNS ALSO HELPED HOMELESS PEOPLE.THE CONTROL SOCIETY CANNOT ALLOW THEM?
-----*****
REASONS FOR WAR:
- MONEY
- SATANISM:WAR IS ULTIMATE SATANISM,ULTIMATE KILLING AND EVILNESS-DESTRUCTION OF LIFE AND LOVE.
-----*****
ILLUMINATI BEHIND CONTROL SOCIETIES:
WITHOUT ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER CONTROL we would have as much internet/computers FOR PUBLIC USE as we have public telephones.(But actually I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ALSO ARE TRYING TO TAKE PUBLIC TELEPHONES AWAY).
-----*****
FOLIO HAT is a must for everyone! (DON'T LET THEM "MICRO-WAVE YOUR BRAINS"?)
-----*****
THEY USE FAKE IDENTITIES in internet and by using mobiles in order to collect data about their enemies.This is very serious because they can ruin other peoples lives and also these datas can be used in framing other people.
----*****
THEY HAVE MADE WHOLE SUBJECT OF CONSPIRACIES A SUBJECT WHICH PEOPLE ONLY JEER AT.I GUESS IT HAS BEEN EASY TO LABEL IT CRAZY AND TO HIRE FEW PEOPLE TO EVERY COUNTRY TO WRITE SOME GRAZY STORIES ABOUT UFOS AND CONNECT OTHER STRANGE THINGS TO THESE THINGS,SO THAT PEOPLE FEEL IT BEING TOO CRAZY TO BE TRUE.
-----*****
DEFINITION OF A ZIONIST?:
ZIONIST IS A JEW WHO BELONGS TO THE ILLUMINATI? (MOST OF JEWS ARE NOT ZIONISTS.I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL ZIONISTS ARE BAD,OR MAYBE ALL OF THEM ARE NOT PART OF ILLUMINATI- BUT SOME OF THEM ARE.AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHOM ANTI-ZIONISTS ACCUSE.BUT I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD ACCUSE ANY RELIGIONS,BUT INSTEAD FIND OUT WHAT IS BEHIND CHAOS AND WRONGFUL ACTIONS : ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER?)
*****.
ILLUMINATI:
MOSSAD IS UNDER ILLUMINATI?
ARAFAT WAS A MEMBER OF ILLUMINATI? EVEN JFK WAS A MEMBER OF ILLUMINATI,BUT HE WANTED TO REVEAL THEM?(SOURCE:JON ERIC PHELPS).
*****
SATANIC ILLUMINATI OPERATES ON ALL LEVELS OF SOCIETY?
IT'S SAID THAT JESUITS CONTROL ALL INTELLIGENCES ON THE EARTH.
THEY CAN ALSO PROPABLY FRAME OR LABEL ANYONE ON THE EARTH ANYWAY THEY WANT.F.EX. FRAMING EVIDENCES,ETC.THEY HAVE ALL POWER TO DO THIS.I AM TOTALLY SURE THAT THIS SECRET ELITE IS ABLE TO MARCH HUGE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE TESTIFYING AGAINST THEIR VICTIMS.AND WITNESSES MAY LIE,BECAUSE THAT IS ONE PRINCIPLE OF SATANOLOGY.
*****
ANYONE ACTING AGAINST ME COULD THINK THAT I AM TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE BY PUBLISHING THIS POSSIBLE ILLUMINATIS BAD ACTIONS AND HIDDEN POWER ON EARTH-AND THEREFORE STOPPING ME MAY STOP GOOD THINGS HAPPENING.
-----*****
EVERY SATANIC ILLUMINATI MEMBER IS ELECTRO-SHOCKED?IT'S PART OF ILLUMINATI MIND CONTROL AND EVERY ILLUMINATI MEMBER IS MIND CONTROLLED BY ILLUMINATI?
MY DOUBT IS THAT HIGHEST ILLUMINATI MEMBERS DON'T TAKE ELECTRIC SHOCKS,BECAUSE THEY DAMAGE BRAINS.(F.EX.HIGHEST DRUG TRADE OPERATORS DON'T USE DRUGS THEMSELVES EITHER...HMM, DRUG TRADE IS ALSO ONE OF ILLUMINATI BUSINESSES?)
-----*****
TORE TOIVICCO ASKS EVERY NATION TO BLOCK ACCESS OF JESUIT-ILLUMINISTS IN TO THEIR COUNTRIES,OR AT LEAST CHECK THEIR ACTIONS AND PURPOSES.THESE PEOPLE MAY BE BEHIND ALL TERRORISM AND VIOLENCE HAPPENING NOW.
ABOVE EVERY EXTREMIST(ZIONIST,CATHOLIC/JESUIT,MUSLIM,CHRISTIAN,SATANIST) -IS AN ILLUMINATI CHIEF MANIPULATING OR BREEDING HATE AMONGST THEM?
(SOURCE :JON ERIC PHELPS)
*****
ONLY ILLUMINATI CAN SOLVE PROBLEM(S) REGARDING ILLUMINATI(BECAUSE THEY RULE THIS WORLD)?
-----**********
SO CALLED IDEA OF ENVIRONMENTAL CRISIS(WHICH DOESN'T EXIST) , IS CREATED ONLY TO MAKE PEOPLE AFRAID OR WORRIED,AND LATE IN ORDER TO GET LAWS OR EMERGENCY LAWS,WHICH ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER-GOVERNMENTS CAN USE IN ORDER TO CONTROL CITIZENS OR THEIR LIVES OR LIFESTYLES.F.EX.ORDER PEOPLE TO LEAVE SOME AREAS,MOVE TO OTHER PLACES,ETC.(TO MAKE PEOPLE REFUGEES,CREATE IMMIGRATION AND CHAOS?F.EX. MAKE CHRISTIANS TO MOVE TO HOSTILE COUNTRIES?)
-----**********
DEFINITION OF A SATANOLOGIST:A SATANOLOGIST IS A PERSON WHO USES SATANIC LEARNINGS AS HIS RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY,AND THEREFORE HARMS OTHERS.
-----*****
HAARP
------*****
REAL HUMAN RIGHTS CRIMES ARE NEVER PROVEN TRUE,BECAUSE THEN THEY WERE NOT REAL HUMAN RIGHTS CRIMES.

REAL HUMAN RIGHTS CRIME NEVER GIVES VICTIM A CHANCE TO BE ABLE TO PROVE ANYTHING.HE IS KEPT OUT OF COMMUNICATION TO OTHER PEOPLE,AND EVERYONE IS MADE TO HATE HIM,AND EVERYONE IS AGAINST HIM(F.EX.THINKING HE IS A CRIMINAL,ETC.)
----*****
TORE TOIVICCO:
SAVE THE PLANET FROM ENVIRONMENTAL CRISIS PROPHETS!(and save us from their control society demands based on that catastrophy thinking -leading to NEW WORLD ORDER of ILLUMINATI?)WHOLE MATTER IS ONLY ILLUMINATI SCAM.
-----*****
About the money:
THEY HAVE GIVEN US COMMUNISM AND PHILOSOPHIES WHICH DESPISE OWNING OR EARNING MONEY.THIS IS ONLY A SATANIC PLOT.ILLUMINATIC ELITE OWNS OR RULE MOST OF THE GLOBE,SO THEY OWN THE MONEY,AND IT'S A THREAT TO THEM IF PEOPLE START TO DEMAND MONEY OR RIGHTS.
THAT'S WHY WE ARE KEPT DOWN,F.EX. BY DRUGS,BY NOT GIVING US ENOUGH JOBS OR APARTMENTS,SO THAT LIFE IS ONLY FIGHTING BETWEEN CITIZENS,INSTEAD OF CONCENTRATING TO CREATE BETTER LIFE FOR ALL PEOPLE.
-----*****
ILLUMINATI PUSHING OCCULT: F.EX.HOLLYWOOD HAS SHOWN OCCULT IDEAS ALMOST 50 YRS.YOUTH AND CHILD FASHIONS USE OCCULT AND SKULL AND BONES SYMBOLS MAKING THIS WAY PEOPLE READY TO ACCEPT SATANISM,OR AT LEAST NOT SO AWARE ABOUT ITS DANGERS.WHEN HAVE YOU SEEN LAST TIME CHRISTIAN IDEAS INCLUDING MOVIE,AND F.EX.TRUE GODS ANGELS IN MOVIES?I DON'T MEAN SATANS ANGELS,BUT GODS ANGELS.THERE IS 2 KINDS OF ANGELS...
WHY IDEAS ARE MOSTLY OCCULT IDEAS?BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY GIVE US LOTS OF SUBJECTS FOR GOOD STORIES,BUT YOU NEVER SEE MOVIES ABOUT THEM.ILLUMINATI AND JESUITS RULE HOLLYWOOD?YOU CAN ONLY SEE CATHOLIC PRIESTS AND CHURCHES ALBEIT USA IS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY.
I CAN IMAGINE THAT SHOWING TRUE CHRISTIANITY WOULD BE DISASTROUS FOR SATANOLOGISTS,AND THEY MAYBE CANNOT DO IT EVER.YOU CAN GET THE IDEA BY READING GOSPELS.THAT'S TRUE CHRISTIANITY.
-----*****
ILLUMINATI behind scenes:
1977-was a celebration of the number of a beast-777-and maybe also celebration of Alisteir Crowley.Year was celebrated by starting punk-rock ,which was advertising anarchy -one of Crowleys ideals,amongst sex,drugs and parties.(f.ex.Ramones had already started punk 1976,but total media-publicity started 1977 and this way masses started to listen it).There were also men behind Sex Pistols?
1966-year was symbolizing Anti-Christs number 666 -and therefore Anton La Vey started Church of satan.
I don't know if these years are so important to satanologists,but f.ex.they may show their power this way,so that anyone who knows about these things can see their infuence.
-----*****
ABOUT SECRET SOCIETIES:
HAS ANYONE EVER THOUGHT WHY SECRET SOCIETIES ARE SECRET?I GUESS IT OBVIOUSLY IMPLIES THAT SOMETHING IN THEIR ACTIVITIES IS SHADY.
-----*****
AGAINST HARMAGEDDON and 666:
ILLUMINATI IS STARTING HARMAGEDDON,F.EX. BY TRYING TO START A WAR BETWEEN CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS(JP/POLITIKEN,DENMARK).HOW TO ACT AGAINST HARMAGEDDON?:
To act against ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER -plots:
1.CREATE PEACE,TRY TO MAKE SOCIETY BETTER
2.REVEAL ILLUMINATI PLOTS
3.PRAY JESUS,AND ASK JESUS TO HELP SATANOLOGISTS FREE FROM SATAN,AND TRY TO MAKE JESUS SAVE SATANOLOGISTS(They propably are not allowed to know about Jesus).
4.STOP SATANIC ILLUMINATI PROPAGANDA AS MUCH AS YOU CAN,REVEAL THEIR HATE CAMPAIGNS AND IMMORAL MEDIA,AND STOP THEIR CRIMINAL CAMPAIGNS.(THEY ARE F.EX. PUSHING 666-LOGO EVERYWHERE,SO THAT YOUNG PEOPLE KNOW SATANIC INFLUENCE.POP IS PUSHING SATAN AND DEMONIC LIFESTYLE,F.EX.DRUGS,VIOLENCE,CRIMES,OCCULTISM AND IMMORALITY.DATA ABOUT JESUS IS STOPPED EVERYWHERE-ESPECIALLY IN SCHOOLS.)
STOP 666-CULT !
-----*****
I HAVE STATED THAT IT'S NOT GOOD TO CRITICIZE ILLUMINATI.MANY HAVE DIED TO IT?I HAVE ACTUALLY WARNED ANYONE TO DO THAT.I HAVE WRITTEN CRITICS ABOUT ILLUMINATI,BUT MY SITUATION MAY CAUSE THAT ILLUMINATI HAS NOT ATTACKED ME,OR MAYBE NEVER ATTACK AGAINST ME-BECAUSE I HAVE WRITTEN EVERYTHING BECAUSE I HAVE NOT HAD ANY OTHER CHANCE.ALMOST EVERYTHING IS TAKEN FROM ME,AND SO I HAD NO OTHER CHANCE THAN TRY TO GET MY RIGHTS IN DENMARK THIS WAY.
SO IT'S EVERYONES OWN CHOICE IF THEY WANT TO DO THINGS AGAINST ILLUMINATI.I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S POSSIBLE OR WORTHWHILE.TRUTH MAY ALSO BE THAT WE MUST ACT AGAINST ILLUMINATI-ONLY GOOD MORAL PEOPLE MAY SAVE THE WORLD?WHY IS THIS?BECAUSE NOW TECHNICAL CONTROL SOCIETY SYSTEMS ARE BETTER THAN EVER BEFORE,AND IF WE DON'T STOP ILLUMINATI WE GET MORE HEAVY CONTROL SOCIETY THAN WE HAVE EVER HAD-MORE HEAVY THAN NAZI-GERMANY OR SOVJET UNION PUT TOGETHER.SOMETHING SIMILAR WHAT ILLUMINATI MEMBERS ORWELL AND HUXLEY HAVE WRITTEN,OR WORSE.
MAYBE ONLY WAY TO ACT AGAINST ILLUMINATI IS TO BE A GOOD CHRISTIAN?(OR GOOD MUSLIM?)
GOOD PEOPLE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY AND ACTING AGAINST BAD THINGS OF ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER AND REALIZING WHAT ARE PLOTS MADE BY GOVERNMENT ABOVE GOVERNMENTS MAY SAVE THIS WORLD?MAYBE ONLY WAY IS TO TRY TO MAKE PEOPLE SEE THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF FAKE NEWS CREATED BY ILLUMINATI-AND CONTROLLED BY ILLUMINATI MEDIA.
-----*****
ILLUMINATI CONTROL:
ORIGINAL HIPPIE IDEOLOGY WAS SAME AS CHRISTIANITYS:' PEACE AND LOVE' -,NOT USING DRUGS.HIPPIES WERE FOOLED TO USE DRUGS BY ILLUMINATI SUPPORTED DRUG-PUSHING WITH HELP OF MEDIA,F.EX.ROCK ARTISTS FOR DRUGS.HIPPIE-IDEOLOGY WAS A THREAT TO WAR INDUSTRY AND ILLUMINATI CONTROL SOCIETY?WHO STARTED HIPPIE IDEOLOGY?IT MAY QUITE WELL BE ILLUMINATI,F.EX.BY APPLYING CROWLEYS 'SEX,DRUGS AND PARTY'-PHILOSOPHY,WHICH WAS TAKEN FROM SATANOLOGICAL LEARNINGS.Cia was giving LSD to hippies in Woodstock 1969?
CROWLEY PUBLISHED AND GAVE SATANIC MAGICK FREELY TO ALL PEOPLE,ACCEPTING EVERYONE TO HIS COVENS,INSTEAD OF ESOTERIC SECRET SOCIETIES OF ILLUMINATI.
HIPPIE CULT LIKE ANY IDEOLOGIES MAY HAVE BEEN STARTED BY ILLUMINATI,AND F.EX. IT'S SAID THAT FREE LOVE-IDEA CAME FROM KINSEY.ANYWAY I WOULD SAY THAT FREE LOVE-IDEA WORKS AS A SATANIC IDEA BEING AGAINST CHRISTIAN MORALS AND FAMILY VALUES,WHICH ARE BASICS OF WESTERN SOCIETIES WELFARE AND HAPPINESS IN LIFE.THEREFORE IT MAY BE THAT ILLUMINATI HAS STARTED WHOLE FREE LOVE-IDEA(TO DESTROY CHRISTIAN USA?).THOUGH WE MUST REMEMBER THAT PSYCHOLOGY (Dr.KINSEY) IS BASED ON OLD SATANIC IDEAS,F.EX. DENYING MANS SPIRITUALITY(F.EX.LaVey:"MAN IS AN ANIMAL.")
-----*****
IT MAY BE THAT THERE IS PARTS OF ILLUMINATI WHICH WANT TO "HANDLE" THIS WRONGFUL ILLUMINATI ADMINISTRATION-AND CHANCE THINGS BETTER FOR EVERYONE.BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S POSSIBLE WITHOUT JESUS.I HOPE IT IS.BUT MAYBE JESUS STOPS ILLUMINATI.
-----*****
ILLUMINATI NEW WORLD ORDER THEORY:
FIRST THEY NEEDED TO GET RID OF USSR.AFTER THAT THEIR PLANS TO GET RID OF USA STARTED FULLY.(THEY NEEDED NO MORE USA AS AN OPPONENT TO USSR.)THEY STARTED EU. SCHENGEN-CONTRACT GAVE EVERY CRIMINAL FREE ACCESS TO ANY COUNTRY INSIDE EU ,AND THEREFORE WE NOW NEED POLICE STATE BECAUSE OF TERRORISM.TERRORISM IS STARTED BY 911, DANISH AND ISRAELS PROVOCATION AGAINST MUSLIMS AND ARABS?
ILLUMINATI MASTERPLAN IS TO START A WAR BETWEEN MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS.IN ORDER TO DO THAT THEY NEED MUSLIMS TO ATTACK AGAINST WESTERN WORLD.OTHERWISE IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET WESTERN PEOPLE TO ACCEPT WAR AGAINST MUSLIMS.
-----*****
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THESE GUYS.NAZI-SATANOLOGISTS MUST BE STOPPED,BECAUSE THEY RUIN LIVES.BUT IT'S NOT LEGAL IF I SAY THAT WE SHOULD DO THE SAME TO THEM(RUIN THEIR LIVES),SO I AM NOT SAYING IT.INSTEAD I JUST SAY THAT WE SHOULD NOT SUPPORT EVILNESS AND WE SHOULD STOP CRIMES.,
-----*****
FAKE ILLUMINATI CRITICS-IT WORKS THIS WAY:
F.EX.DAVID ICKE.HE GIVES TRUE DATA(ROTSCHILDS BEHIND BANKING AND WARS?),AND THEN FALSE OR UNBELIEVABLE DATA(UFOS,REPTILE-HUMANS).IT'S NOT THE POINT IF THOSE 2 THINGS ARE TRUE OR NOT,BUT MOST PEOPLE PROPABLY CONSIDER UFOS UNBELIEVABLE AND THAT'S WHY THEY START TO THINK THAT ILLUMINATI IS NOT TRUE EITHER.
THIS MAY BE THE PURPOSE OF FAKE ILLUMINATI CRITICS.DAVID ICKE IS USED HERE ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE ABOUT THIS,AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT HE IS A FAKE CRITIC.
-----*****
ABOUT WAR: "Listen those ones who have been in a war,f.ex. Vietnam veterans."
**********
TORE TOIVICCO IS A CHRISTIAN POLITICIAN,pop-ARTIST AND RESEARCHER OF
SATANISM
AND SATANIC CRIME.(I HAVE USED WORDS SATANISM,NEW WORLD ORDER AND ILLUMINATI/-MANAGEMENT/ADMINISTRATION TO DESCRIBE THAT PROPABLE ADMINISTRATION WHICH HAS HIDDEN POWER ON EARTH DECIDING ABOVE GOVERNMENTS.I DON´T WANT THESE WORDS TO BE USED AGAINST ANY MEMBER OF ANY RELIGION OR ANYONE WHATEVER RELIGIOUS BELIEFS HE HAS,or anything I can be accused.I DENY ANY SUCH USE OF any DATA of THIS MESSAGE WHICH CAN CAUSE THAT I could be ACCUSED OR SUED ACCORDING ANY LAWS.COPYRIGHT TORE TOIVICCO AND OTHER COPYRIGHT OWNERS or copyright holders.
(IF YOU WANT TO BECOME A SPONSOR OF TORE TOIVICCOS HOMEPAGE (or
sponsor
of my research),CONTACT: NOBORG@SURFY.NET)
......
Don´t try this at home,(f.ex.internet) or any other place!I forbid readers to use any of my data to any activity.ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.I DENY ALL RIGHTS FOR USING THIS MESSAGE ANY WAY WHICH CAN CAUSE ME TO BE ACCUSED.
SOURCE/QUOTES OF THE JON ERIC PHELPS INTERVIEW(IF IN THIS MESSAGE) is from the May 2000 issue of The SPECTRUM Newspaper.Contacting information for The SPECTRUM is as follows:
Website: [link]
E-mail address: thespectrum@tminet.com
Telephone: 1(877) 280-2866 toll-free (US & Canada)
1(661) 823-9696 (All others)
Regular mail: 9101 West Sahara Ave., PMB158, Las Vegas, NV 89117,USA
4/15/00 RICK MARTIN
The SPECTRUM Newspaper, May 2000
[link]
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/blackpope.htm
[link]
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/blackpope.htm

Use of word satanism or satanist IN MY WRITINGS MEANS EVERYONE WHO IS SATANIC OR OCCULT GROUP OR COVEN MEMBERS,REALLY PRACTISING REAL HARDCORE SATANOLOGY,INSTEAD OF DABBLING SATANISTS,WHO MAYBE DON'T DO MUCH HARM TO ANYONE.(WHOLE TERMINOLOGY IS ONLY ONE WAY TO FOOL PEOPLE,THERE IS ONLY ONE SATANISM!) SATANISM HAS ALSO MADE HUGE AMOUNTS OF PEOPLE THEIR MEMBERS DURING LAST 10-15 YEARS,AND THOSE NEWLY RECRUITED PEOPLE MAY BE ONLY ONES WHO ARE KNOWN TO BE IN SATANISM AND WHO LOOK LIKE SATANISTS,F.EX.GOTH AND DEATH METAL FANS, -AND THEY EVEN MAY BE FOOLED TO DO CRIMES,BUT THEY ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.REAL SATANIC ADMINISTRATION IS AMONGST HIGHEST PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET(OR ABOVE THEM).
- TORE TOIVICCO
-----
FAIR USE NOTICE:
This message/writing contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the
copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human
rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.For more informa-tion go to: [link] If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission
from the copyright owner.
-----
All information posted in this writing is the opinion of the author and is provided for educational purposes only. It is not to be construed as medical advice. Only a licensed medical doctor can legally offer medical advice in the United States. Consult the healer of your choice for medical care and advice.  



27 Jun 2006 @ 01:37 by encantoman @68.231.51.210 : A Poem about Mohammed
A fuuny and entertaining POEM about the ProFit Mohammed at:
www.davidshiles.com/Islam/Mohammed.html  



8 Jul 2006 @ 08:37 by mishka @168.209.98.66 : to mona
mona you and your friends are talking so much but when the israelis are comming you hide behind women and children. israeli army is the best army in the world bec god is in it. true christians support israel!  


17 Jul 2006 @ 16:32 by TORE TOIVICCO @80.198.90.250 : INTERNATIONAL BANKERS/ILLUMINATI CORRUPT
HERE IS BACKGROUND:
INTERNATIONAL BANKERS/ILLUMINATI CORRUPTION CULT NEW WORLD ORDER:
ILLUMINATI,BLACK POPE/jesuits/SATANIC-NEW WORLD ORDER behind 911 and HITLERS THIRD REICH?MEMBERS OF
SATANIC
SECRET SOCIETY JESUITS/BILDERBERG/SKULL AND BONES/ILLUMINATI.
Lecture-notes of Tore Toivicco,christian,danish-U.S.
politician,"Good
solutions-party",(who knows,maybe president of USA,after Arnold
Scwarzenegger(If
USA still exists after Arnolds presidency [JOKE]),if world regocnizes
and
understands these things I´m talking about....Matthew 20:16:"...So
the last
will be first,and the first will be last..."),though I don´t consider myself being a last one.22.1.2006:IF YOU WANT
TO BECOME A SPONSOR OF MY HOMEPAGE (or my research),CONTACT:
NOBORG@SURFY.NET

(DEDICATED TO GENE ZIMMER AND NICK HEATHER.)

JESUITS+BLACK POPE,ILLUMINATI,SKULL AND BONES OR SATANIC ADMINISTRATION ARE MEN BEHIND 11/9.2001?WHO
RULES
THE WORLD?IT MAY BE THAT IT´S IMPOSSIBLE TO GET DATA ABOUT WHO REALLY RULES THE WORLD-AND ALL DATA WE KNOW(ROCKEFELLER,ROTCSHILD,ROYAL-FAMILIES,ILLUMINATI,JESUITS,BLACK POPE,SKULL AND BONES,BROTHERHOODS OF WITCHCRAFT/satanism,FREEMASONS,KNIGHTS OF TEMPLARS,MALTA,COMMITTEE 0F 300,BILDERBERG,ROUNDTABLE,CFR,ETC.)ARE ONLY DATA GIVEN TO US IN ORDER TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND WHO REALLY RULES.
GOALS OF ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER?It´s stated that Illuminati plan is to get total control over every human being and reduce the world's population by 4-5.5 Billion people.
[ SOURCE/link:The New World Order(NWO)-An Overview By Ken Adachi [link] ]

This would happen with help of wars and drugs and mind-control.

ONE THING WHICH IS POSSIBLE FOR ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER TO DO,IS SEND A SIGNAL,WHICH STOPS ALL COMPUTERS ON EARTH,OR DELETES ALL DATAS FROM COMPUTERS,AND THIS COULD ALSO STOP ELECTRICITY.THIS COULD CAUSE A HUGE CHAOS ON EARTH SINCE ALMOST ALL REGISTERS WOULD BE DESTROYED,F.EX. BANKS COULDN´T OPERATE AND PEOPLE COULDN´T GET THEIR MONEY OUT.

THESE HIGHEST ONES IN THESE SECRET SOCIETY HIERARCHY SEEM TO BE IN SOME DEGREE INTERNATIONAL BANKER-FAMILIES: ROTSCHILDS,ROCKEFELLER,ETC.,ENGLISH ROYAL-FAMILY AND SKULL&BONES(F.EX.BUSH),JESUITS/BLACK POPE,BILDERBERG AND POSSIBLY SOME WITCHCRAFT BROTHERHOOD(S).(SVALI:13 PERSONS IN EUROPE WILL RULE AFTER WW3,SOME OTHER SOURCES SAY THAT SOMEONE CALLED ANTI-CHRIST BECOMES THE DICTATOR OF THE WORLD).I guess it´s DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT IS TRUTH IN THIS MATTER,AND THERE IS MANY DIFFERENT DATA ABOUT THESE THINGS.IT MAY BE THAT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF ILLUMINATI IS STILL UNKNOWN,RULING OVER ALL THESE NAMES I HAVE MENTIONED HERE.WHY SHOULD THEY LET THEIR NAMES COME PUBLIC IF THEY HAVE ALL THE POWER ON EARTH,OWNING MEDIAS,ETC.ON THE OTHER HAND,IF THEY HAVE SO MUCH POWER,THEY MAY INTENTIONALLY GIVE DATA ABOUT IT NOW,F.EX.THIS WAY SHOWING THEIR POWER,PROMOTING THEIR SATANIC MANAGEMENT or CONTROLLING THEMSELVES "OPPOSITION".
[ Source:...a chapter of the Deeper Insights- book:"...the New World Order created their own opposition.."
[link] ]
THESE SECRET SOCIETIES OPERATE TOWARDS THEIR NEW WORLD ORDER-PLAN EVEN IF IT WOULD TAKE LONGER THAN THEIR LIFE TIME.(This and the fact that they control media is why people don´t have any data or understanding about whole thing).THIS WAY THEY HAVE ALREADY 2 CENTURIES OPERATED IN ORDER TO GET THEIR ANTI-CHRIST SOCIETY,SO THAT THEY CAN GET THEIR SATANIST LEADER TO JERUSALEM TO RULE WHOLE WORLD?(="ANTI-CHRIST",MAN WHO HAS ABSOLUTE POWER ON EARTH,HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANT AND ORDER WHAT EVER HE WANTS,BEING AN ABSOLUTE DICTATOR ON EARTH.)?
(ONE REASON FOR PUBLISHING THIS NEW WORLD GOAL COULD BE THAT IT KEEPS THEIR OWN "TROOPS" OBEYING THEM,even if it were not true.)
IT´S ALSO STATED MANY TIMES THAT INTELLIGENCES ARE PART OF ILLUMINATI OR CONTROLLED BY ILLUMINATI/JESUITS WORLD ORDER(F.EX. MI-6 freemasons?).IT´S STATED THAT JESUIT GENERAL/BLACK POPE/ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER IS IN CONTROL OF INTERNATIONAL INTELLIGENCIES,like CIA,KGB,FBI,Mossad,etc.
links/sources:
[link]
http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/Protocol.htm
[link]

IF THESE DIFFERENT ILLUMINATI-GROUPS WOULD FIGHT TOWARDS EACH OTHERS,IT WOULD SAVE THE WORLD...

ONE POSSIBILITY IS ALSO THAT NEW WORLD ILLUMINATI WANTS SOME WAY TO CHANGE THEIR ACTS and WORLD BETTER,BUT IF THEY HAVE BEEN CONNECTED TO BAD SATANISM LONG TIME,IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO DO,AND THEREFORE THEY MAY PUBLISH THESE THINGS THIS WAY.ON THE OTHER HAND THEY MAYBE GIVE DATA TO PUBLIC ABOUT THEIR MAGIC,F.EX.THROUGH HOLLYWOOD-MOVIES?TO MAKE NUMBER OF "SATANISTS" BIGGER,GET SUPPORTERS,NEW MEMBERS?
ONE WAY TO HANDLE THIS KIND OF SITUATION IS MAYBE WHAT WAS DONE IN SOUTH AFRICA,WHEN APARTHEID WAS STOPPED.THERE WAS The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission,AND MAYBE IT´S RUMOUR,BUT IT MAY BE THAT THIS COMMISSION USED L.RON HUBBARDS TECHNOLOGY IN SOLVING THIS SITUATION.WHO KNOWS -ANYWAY WE KNOW THAT THIS BAD SITUATION IN SOUTH-AFRICA GOT HANDLED WITHOUT VIOLENCE.

-USA/WALL STREET/SKULL AND BONES/ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER ETC.(?)HAS BEEN SUPPORTING NAZISM
AND
COMMUNISM,HITLER AND SOVJET RUSSIA.THIS CAN BE EXPLAINED AS CREATING
A WAR
OR CHAOS,WHICH MEANS MONEY TO WAR-INDUSTRY, OR/AND SERVES SATANISTIC
IDEAS("WAR
IS ULTIMATE SATANISM.")ILLUMINATI/JESUITS WORLD ORDER USE FREEMASONS AND HAS CREATED F.EX.COMMUNISM IN ORDER TO DESTROY CHRISTIANITY(and control people).THIS ELITE OWNS MEDIA,AND YOU DON´T SEE THESE THINGS TOLD IN NEWS.HIGHEST LEADER MAY BE BLACK POPE aka JESUIT GENERAL,OR EVEN HIGHER UNKNOWN LEADER(S)(WE CAN SEE BLACK POPE IN INTERNET...)
-ADOLF HITLER WAS A HIGH SATANIST(NAZI-GERMANY/COMMUNIST-RUSSIA HAS
BEEN
ONE APPLICATION OF SATANIC WORLD ORDER?)
-TERRORISM IS CREATED/SUPPORTED BY SATANISM?
-THERE WOULD NOT BE PROBLEMS,VIOLENCE,BAD THINGS, UNLESS ILLUMINATI ELITE WANT IT?
-SATANISMS PHILOSOPHY HAS BEEN DESCRIBED TO BE PHILOSOPHY OF
EVILNESS ,AND
EVILNESS IS CONNECTED MANY TIMES TO ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER ALSO.IT´S SAID
THAT ALL MODERN TIME US PRESIDENTS HAS OBEYED SKULL&BONES/ILLUMINATI/JESUITS,EXCEPT JFK(JFK WANTED TO REVEAL ILLUMINATI?).IT´S
SAID
THAT SKULL AND BONES ARE USING DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS TO CHANGE THINGS
INSIDE
USA,AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS TO CHANGE THINGS INTERNATIONALLY.F.ex.BUSH SUPPORT WAR,PSYCHIATRIC CONTROL SOCIETY(LAW ABOUT EVERY
AMERICAN
CITIZEN TESTED BY PSYCHIATRISTS AND MORE NEW WORLD ORDER "ACTS"?)
The U.S. House of Representatives', Appropriations Committee,
approved funding
of the President's 'New Freedom Commission Initiative' that includes
plan
to screen all U.S. citizens for mental illness!
[link]
THIS CAUSES MORE DESTRUCTION AND PROPABLY DESTROYS WHOLE USA,BECAUSE
PSYCHIATRY
IS CAUSE OF CRIME(f.ex.drugs cause violence)AND IT RUINS PEOPLE
(F.EX.PSYCHIATRIC
DRUGS LOBOTOMIZES BRAINS).THIS LAW ALONE CAN BE MORE DESTROYING
CATASTROPHE
TO MANKIND THAN TSUNAMI OF SOUTH-EAST ASIA AND VIETNAM WAR PUT
TOGETHER.

HIGHEST FREEMASONS ARE MEMBERS OF ILLUMINATI(according to SVALI),AND THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS:
"In order for a person to become a Shriner, he must... make all those blood-curdling oaths, worship gods who are not gods except they are of Satan..."

source:
[ [link] ]

Albert Pikes letter ,which has predicted both World Wars,and now is predicting third WORLD WAR,WHICH WAS STARTED 11/9.2001,IN ORDER TO DESTROY BOTH CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS IN A WAR BETWEEN THEM...
this doesn´t necessary prove that he has predicted them magic way.TRUTH MAY BE THAT ILLUMINATI World Order OPERATES ACCORDING HIS "INSTRUCTIONS":
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism...Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
Students of history will recognize that the political alliances of England on one side and Germany on the other, forged between 1871 and 1898 by Otto von Bismarck, co-conspirator of Albert Pike, were instrumental in bringing about the First World War.

"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine...International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom..."

After this Second World War, Communism was made strong enough to begin taking over weaker governments...and...a large portion of Europe was simply handed over to Russia.."

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the..."Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

SOURCE:
[ [link]
http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm
[link]
http://toodumbtobepresident.com/NewWorldOrder.html ]

DOC MARQUIS is ex-ILLUMINIST WITCH REVEALING STRONG WITCHCRAFT TIES TO FREEMASONRY.He states that Superior Masons deliberately may lie to fellow Masons and that Lucifer is their god.
SOURCE: [Lady Queenborough, Occult Theocracy , p. 220-221, quoting a letter from Albert Pike to the 23 Supreme Councils of the World on July 14, 1889]
source/link: [ [link] ]

A little-known fact:Both John Kerry and President Bush are members of Yale's secret society Skull and Bones."
[Quotes/SOURCES: [link]
http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_socie...rry_bush_sb.htm ]

[ Quotes/links/sources ,if not given any otherlink :]
[link]
http://www.savethemales.ca/251102.html
[link]
http://www.newswatchmagazine.org/weekly_ed...tarzone/BK.html
[link]
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0122-10.htm
[link]
http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/story.asp\?ID=4136
[link]
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/schoolvideo.html
[link]
http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2004/07...itiative_us.htm
[link]
http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol30I1/page40.htm
[link]
http://www.oralchelation.net/data/Psychiatry/data18n.htm
[link]
BOOK:( RIKU RINNE:Syvyyden kuilusta )
[link]
http://globalresearch.ca.myforums.net/viewtopic.php\?t=317
[link]
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/stopchildrape.net/
[link]
http://www.rense.com/general30/illuminatidefector.htm
[link]

[link]
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/elites.htm
[link]
http://www.revolting.com/1.2/chick/vatican.html
[link]
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%
[link]
http://www.rense.com/general66/dweyb2.htm
20History/sheeple_analyst/shining_a_light_on_the_illuminati.htm
[link]
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1623.cfm
[link]
http://www.fourwinds10.com/corner/black-pope.htm
[link]
http://www.cuttingedge.org/free14.html
[link]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Illuminati
[link]
http://100777.com/myron
[link]
http://www.cephasministry.com/index_nwo.html
[link]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAARP

MOST IMPORTANT LINK ON EARTH?:
[link]

NEW NOTES:
IT SEEMS THAT FREEMASONS ARE PART OF ILLUMINATI WORLD ORDER,AND EVERY CITY HAS THEIR OWN ILLUMINATI ORDER MANAGEMENT.MY OPINION IS THAT ILLUMINATI OR SATANIC ADMINISTRATION WANTS EVERY CITY AND EVERY PART OF CITIES UNDER THEIR CONTROL.OF COURSE THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DONE SO,THAT F.EX.GANG OR GROUP LEADERS ARE PART OF HIGHER GROUP IN THIS HIERARCHY,AND THIS HIGHER LEVEL LEADERS AGAIN ARE MEMBERS OF HIGHER GROUP,ETC.ETC.(LOOK DAVID ICKES PYRAMID-STRUCTURE PICTURES)
(SVALI:"There are Illuminati groups in EVERY major city in the US and Europe. ")
[link]

-f.ex.Freemasons are said to operate under Black Popes orders:

[link]

U.S. president George W. Bush, his father and grandfather are proven
initiates
of this multi-generational occult lodge.Adolf Hitler was also
obsessed with
the occult,in his case the Thule Society...If the Nazis' occult lodges had been exposed and
shut
down...,millions of lives could have been
saved.The
second world war need never have happened
[ QUOTE:
[link]
]
The Rockefeller Foundation poured money into the occupied German
republic
for `psychiatric genetics.This field
applied
to psychiatry the concepts of eugenics(...known as race
purification,
race hygiene,or race betterment)
and its offshoot Eugenics Societies in England and America.

Antony C.Sutton:"Why had the US built-up it's enemy?Why did the US
build-up
the Soviet Union,while we also transferred technology to Hitler's
Germany?"Sutton proceeded to research and write 3 books on Wall
Street: and FDR; and the Rise of Hitler; and The Bolshevik
Revolution.Then,
someone sent Antony a membership list of Skull and Bones and--"a
picture
jumped out".A multigenerational foreign-based
secret
society with fingers in all kinds of pies and roots going back
to 'Illuminati'
influences...
[Quote:
[link]
]
"ADOLF HITLER WAS A 33RD DEGREE HIGH SATANIST."
"ROCKEFELLER-PSYCHIATRY FROM 30´S NAZI-GERMANY HAS BEEN FRANCHISED
ALL OVER
WESTERN WORLD RUINING MILLIONS OF LIVES TODAY."
REASON WHY I´M WRITING THIS IS THAT WE MAY HAVE IN FRONT OF US SAME
KIND
OF MISSION AS GOOD PEOPLE HAD 1945!NAZISM HAD TO BE STOPPED THAT
TIME,AND
SO IT MUST BE STOPPED IN THE FUTURE.
MEN BEHIND HITLER AND 9/11 WERE SAME:SKULL AND
BONES,SATANISTS,ILLUMINATI,ETC.I
DON´T KNOW EXACTLY WHICH OF THEM,BUT THERE PROPABLY EXIST HIGHEST
ADMINISTRATION
AMONGST SOME OF THOSE GROUPS- AND IT RULES THE WORLD SOME WAY.THEY MAY ALSO BE ONES WHO BOTH STARTED AND STOPPED WW2.
LOTS OF DATA ABOUT SKULL AND BONES,AND THESE THINGS LATELY,IMPLIES
THAT
THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT IN HIGHEST POWER,BUT ON THE OTHER HAND IT MAY BE
THEIR PR,IF THEIR POSITION IN POWER ON EARTH IS SO SURE ALREADY.
(WE DON´T NEED TO BELIEVE SATANS EXISTENCE,BUT WE CAN THINK SATAN AS
A GOD
OF SATANISTS,WHO DO THINGS IN ORDER TO SERVE SATAN.)
KEYWORD IN SATANIC THINGS IS SECRET,SECRECY,- THOSE THINGS ARE KEPT
SECRET,AND
THAT´S WHY THEIR EXISTENCE MAY SEEM UNBELIEVABLE.ILLUMINATI,THE
BROTHERHOOD,SATANIST
CHURCH,SKULL AND BONES,ETC.ETC.,ALL/SOME OF THEM OR SOME OTHER
ADMINISTRATION
ABOVE THEM ARE SECRETLY RULING THE WORLD?AND HAS BEEN A LONG TIME?

4 POSSIBLE WAYS OF HOW WORLD IS RULED NOW:
1.ONE RULER ABOVE ALL,CONTROLLING ILLUMINATI/NEW WORLD ORDER
2.MANY ILLUMINATI-GROUPS AND BLOODLINES CO-OPERATING
3.MANY ILLUMINATI-GROUPS AND BLOODLINES COMPETING
4.ILLUMINATI-GROUPS AND BLOODLINES HAS NOT ENOUGH POWER TO CONTROL WHOLE WORLD

HISTORY:
WORLD RUN BY ILLUMINISTS,SATANISTS SECRETLY 50,OR 100 YEARS OR MORE?SVALI:The Supreme World Council-This council is already set up as a prototype of the one that will rule when the NWO comes into being... these leaders are heads in the financial world,OLD banking money. The Rothschild family in England,and in France,... A descendant of the Hapsburg dynasty..A descendant of the ruling families of England and France...The Rockefeller family in the US holds a seat...This is one reason that the Illuminati have been pretty "untouchable"...The ruling members are very,very,very wealthy and powerful.

SOURCE. [ [link] ]
George
Bush's father and George Bush were and are members of Skull&
Bones.
Bush's father was a major contributor to the Hitler Project as
well as the build-up of the Soviet Union...leading to the World Wars and the...set-up of the United Nations...
Quote:
[ [link] ]

MIND CONTROL, CONTROLLING POPULATION IS PART OF THIS,AND F.EX. MEDIA AND ENTERTAINMENT IS UNDER OF THIS ELITES CONTROL,HERE IS ONE EXPLANATION:
( A former Luciferian Doc Marquis, in his book, "Secrets of the Illuminati" states that Rock-n-Roll music is pure witchcraft and the perfect medium by which Satanists can teach ...the precepts of Satanism by inducing human minds into a mild hypnosis so that Satanism can penetrate directly into their subconscious,... and that this way Rock-n-Roll is preparing generations of children for the values of the New World Order.)

[QUOTE: [link] ]

Best proof about this establishments existence/power is total lack of
discussion
about these things in news-media(even lots of data about them is
available
and these things has something to do with every citizens life-and
this
is perfect subject for a news media)?Media,as well as
policeforces,politics,business
are under this world management?
[Some of the world's most famous and powerful men alive today
are "bonesmen,"
including George Bush,Nicholas Brady,and William F. Buckley...Henry Luce(Time-Life),Harold Stanley(founder of Morgan
Stanley),
Henry P. Davison(senior partner Morgan Guaranty Trust),Artemus
Gates(President
of New York Trust Company,Union Pacific,TIME,Boeing Company),
Senator
John Chaffe,Russell W. Davenport(editor Fortune Magazine),and many
others.
All have taken a solemn vow of secrecy.
[Quote:
[link] ]
(THE FACT THAT WE NOW HAVE ALL THIS DATA ABOUT SKULL&BONES(OR BLACK POPE) CAN MEAN THAT THEY ARE NOT HAVING HIGHEST POWER IN THIS ILLUMINATI HIERARCHY.ON THE OTHER HAND IT MAY BE INTENTIONAL,IF THIS ILLUMINATI ALREADY HAS SO MUCH POWER THAT THEY DON´T NEED TO HIDE ANYMORE,BEING TOTALLY SECRET.THEY MAY EVEN GIVE DATA OUT IN ORDER TO PROMOTE THEIR POWER?)THIS CAN ALSO MEAN THAT THEY USE AS A STRATEGY HAVING LOTS OF DIFFERENT GROUPS IN THEIR HIERARCHY,WHICH WORK AS A PYRAMID INSIDE PYRAMID,LIKE DAVID ICKE HAS SAID, AND THIS WAY IT´S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A CLEAR IDEA ABOUT THIS WHOLE ILLUMINATI STRUCTURE.EVEN TO THEIR MEMBERS.AND LIKE HITLER,THIS HIGHEST LEVEL DOESN´T EVEN NEED TO GET MUCH INVOLVED INTO THOSE HORRIBLE ACTS OF LOWER LEVELS,BUT ONLY MADE IT UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEY WANT TO HAPPEN, AND IF IT DOESN´T HAPPEN, EVERY MEMBER KNOWS THAT RESULTS CAN BE BAD.(F.EX.IT IS SAID THAT WACOS CHRISTIAN GROUP HAD HACKED SOME CONFIDENTIAL DATA ABOUT HIGH DRUG-BUSINESS CONNECTIONS, AND THAT WAS WHY THEY GOTDESTROYED-AS A WARNING TO OTHERS?)
ILLUMINATI PLAN CREATING MORE SATANISM:
(SATANISM
HAS
RULED THE WORLD LONG TIME,AND PREPARED WORLD TO SATANISM?(F.EX.
SATANISTIC
ADMINISTRATION HAVING CONNECTION TO MANY
GOVERNMENTS,VATICAN,ETC.ETC.,CHANCING
CHRISTIAN
VALUES,CREATING BIG CITIES,-YOUTH ,WHO HAS NO
RESPONSIBILITY,-RACIAL DISCRIMINATION,CONTROL OF IDEAS(THROUGH
FASHIONS,MEDIAS,LITERATURE),ROCKEFELLER
SUPPORTED PSYCHIATRY FRANCHISED THROUGH WESTERN WORLD,-AND
NOW THE TIME IS NEAR?ANYWAY PERSONALLY I THINK IT
AT LEAST TAKES FEW YEARS STILL,MAYBE EVEN TENS OF YEARS.IN WORST CASE
QUITE
SOON.)Some things created by satanic administration?:
1- WARS (They have created sayings like:"PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS WARS, NO-
ONE
CAN HELP
IT,IT BELONGS TO HUMAN BEHAVIOUR..."?).I CLAIM THAT AFTER II WORLD
WAR NAZISM
NEVER ENDED,IT NEVER BECAME STOPPED:HIGH NAZIS(ACTUALLY HIGH
SATANISTS,WHICH
WERE CREATING WHOLE NAZISM IN GERMANY) WERE MOVED TO USA OR SOUTH-
AMERICA,OR
USED IN INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS AGAINST COMMUNISM.NAZI PSYCHIATRISTS
SERVED
IN PSYCHIATRY WORLD WIDELY AFTER WAR?(SS-SYMBOL WAS SKULL AND
BONES...)
2-DESTROYING MORALS:
-ROCK
-DRUGS(DRUGS ARE ALLOWED BY THE POLICE AND GOVERNMENTS.ONLY LOWEST
LEVEL
DRUG-CRIMINALS ARE STOPPED.DANGEROUS PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS ARE ALLOWED)
-MEDIA: ALMOST EVERY HOLLYWOOD MOVIE HAS A SEX-SCENE,EVEN IF IT HAD
NOTHING
TO DO WITH A STORY.WHY?(ORDER FROM SATANIST MANAGEMENT IN ORDER
TO CREATE LUST,ETC.)
-VIOLENCE OF TV, AND HOLLYWOOD MOVIES: VIOLENCE AND KILLING AND
GANGS ADMIRED
AND SHOWED AS A SOLUTION;COMMANDED FROM ILLUMINATI/SATANISM?MEDIA GIVES
CHILDREN
AND YOUTH OCCULTIC AND SATANIC IDEAS AND ROLEMODELS.ALSO MANY SCENES
OR
IDEAS ARE CRUEL,MAKING VIEWERS CRUEL?
(ALSO HOLLYWOOD MOVIES INCLUDE VERY OFTEN A CATHOLIC PRIEST, WHICH IN PROTESTANT COUNTRY DOESN´T SEEM VERY LOGICAL...IT´S ALSO SAID THAT JESUITS CONTROL HOLLYWOOD.)
- SEX:PORN AND SEX OFFERING IS CREATED BY SATANISTS IN ORDER TO
DESTROY
MORALS,AND THEY MAKE MONEY WITH THIS ALSO?SEX-BUSINESS? ALSO CREATING
PERVERSIONS(FUTURE?),F.EX.ABOUT
20 YEARS AGO MEDIA HAD HUGE HEADLINES ABOUT GAYS,AND AFTER THAT MEDIA
AND
POLITICIANS HAS PROMOTED GAYS,WHICH HAS MADE HOMOSEXUALITY ACCEPTED
IN WESTERN
WORLD.NOW SAME KIND OF HEADLINES ARE WRITTEN ABOUT PEDOPHILES(IN
ORDER GET
THIS THING KNOWN- AND LATER ACCEPTED?)ANYWAY I DON´T WANT THESE DATAS
USED
AGAINST GAYS.I THINK THEY HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS ALREADY.LET MINORITIES
LIVE
IN PEACE.I THINK SOLUTIONS TO HOMOSEXUALITY IS SOLVABLE BY USING
CHRISTIANITY
OR MAYBE L.RON HUBBARDS TECHNOLOGY.I GUESS CITIES,CITY-LIFE WITHOUT LOVE,BROKEN HOMES WITHOUT
FATHERS
CREATE PERVERSIONS AND HOMO-SEXUALITY, AND NOWADAYS EVEN MEDIAS ARE PROMOTING IT
SOMEWAY.THIS
IMPLIES IT HAVING SOMETHING TO DO WITH DEMONIC OR SATANIC GROUND,AS
SOME
CHRISTIANS SAY.
-BIG CITIES(used in order to create a loveless jungle-law areas,where
people
are fighting towards each others,=DRUGS and PERVERTED PEOPLE,CHAOS)
-MAKING 2 SIDES FIGHTING
-ELITISM
-DAVID ICKE SAYS THAT THESE ILLUMINISTS,SATANIC ADMINISTRATION OR
WHATEVER
WE CALL THIS ELITE,HAS CREATED RELIGIONS SO THAT THEY CAN CONTROL
PEOPLE.I
WOULD SAY THAT NOWADAYS THEY ALSO CONTROL MEMBERS OF MANY
GROUPS,GANGS,POLITICAL
GROUPS,ETC.AND WORKERS OF MANY WORKING PLACES.DRUGS IS ONE WAY TO
CONTROL
SOME PEOPLE.
"CREATING CHAOS AND THEN GIVING A SOLUTION.(LOOK EVERYTHING IN SOCIETY AND THINK THIS.)THEY LET DRUGS(and terrorism)COME,THEN THEY DEMAND MORE RIGHTS TO POLICE=WAY TO CREATE A CONTROL SOCIETY." = F.EX.PATRIOT ACT LAW IN USA?(ACTUALLY INTELLIGENCES KNEW EVERYTHING NEEDED TO STOP WTC-ATTACK,BUT THEY DIDNT STOP IT?THEY WERE ATTACKERS THEMSELVES?)

Anthony Sutton's works, WALL STREET AND THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION and WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER will reveal that the wealthiest individuals in the world (including John D. Rockefeller and Prescott Bush)financed the left wing Bolsheviks and the right wing Nazis and clashed them in war for profit and power.The two Wall Street firms most in the forefront of the financing of the Bolshevik revolution were J.P. MORGAN and BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN.

ILLUMINATI intends to control both sides of every conflict.

[link]

(ALSO TSUNAMI of 2004,MAY BE A PRODUCT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION,AS WELL AS OMITTING HELP TO KATRINA-STORMS CATASTROPHE ARE IN NEW ORLEANS 2005.IF YOU LOOK TSUNAMI MAPS,THEY CAN BE INTERPRETED SO THAT POSSIBLE NUCLEAR BOMB(S) HAS STARTED WHOLE THING FROM ONE POINT,AND CAUSED TSUNAMI WAVE of 2004(NUCLEAR BOMB(S)TO A PLACE WHICH CAN START AN EARTHQUAKE UNDER SEA,ACCORDING INFORMATIONS FROM SEISMOLOGISTS).
[link]
http://www.ctv.ca/generic/WebSpecials/tsunami_map/map.html
[link]
http://worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/tsunami.htm
[link] )
DOES ILLUMINATI HAS NUCLEAR BOMBS/DEVICES READY TO CAUSE CATASTROPHES IN USA?EARTHQUAKES,RADIATION,ERUPTIONS,HAARP(WEATHER CONTROL?)ETC.?

BASIC PHILOSOPHY OF SATANISM:EVILNESS,SEX and white and BLACK MAGIC:
SOME OPINIONS:"Satanism has no morals":
"SATANISTS HAVE NO DOUBTS TO STEAL,LIE,BE VIOLENT OR INTERFERE INTO
OTHER
PEOPLES LIFES,AND DESTROY IT."
"SATANISTS WANT POWER":
SOME FORMS OF SATANISM:
COMMUNISM (evilness towards middle-class)
NAZISM (evilness towards middle-class)
CAPITALISM (evilness towards middle-class)?
-BREAKING FAMILY-UNIT,SEPARATING OLD AND YOUNG PEOPLE IS A SATANISTIC
METHOD(CREATING
UNHAPPINESS,IGNORANT AND VIOLENT PEOPLE)?THIS IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN
MODERN
WESTERN WORLD.
-SUPPORT/PRACTISE ANYTHING WHICH IS OPPOSITE TO TEACHINGS OF JESUS OR
BIBLE(TO
GOODNESS).
BLACK SATANISMS PHILOSOPHY ACTUALLY IS ONLY PHILOSOPHY OF
BARBARISM:STRONGEST
AND MOST VIOLENT MAN WINS.THINGS ARE SOLVED BY VIOLENCE.ONLY LOWEST
LEVEL
INSTINCTS IN PEOPLE(SEX,VIOLENCE,EVILNESS) ARE ACCEPTED,AND THEY ARE
REWARDED
IN SATANISTIC ORDER?WE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT ALL WELFARE IN WESTERN
WORLD
TODAY IS BASED ON CHRISTIAN
VALUES:FAMILY,NATION,RELIGION,HONESTY,WORK,DECENCY,CHRISTIAN
ETHICS(=GOODNESS).SATANISM IS TRYING TO CHANGE WORLD BACK TO
BARBARISM?:YOUTH
IDOLS ARE CRIMINAL,PERVERT OR VIOLENT ROLEMODELS,DRUGS ARE SPREAD
EVERYWHERE
MAKING PEOPLE LOW-LEVEL BEINGS,ETC..
EVERY HIGH SATANIST IS A MEMBER OF A CHRISTIAN CHURCH,in order to
destroy
Christianity.
THEY FILL WESTERN WORLD WITH CATHOLIC,ARAB AND MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS(some
extremists
of those groups hate jews and christians),IN ORDER TO USE THEM AGAINST
JEWS AND CHRISTIANS?(=racism,2 sides fighting,war,and satanism
against christians).
PEDOPHILE HYSTERIA used:A.-TO STOP PEOPLE LOVING CHILDREN ,B.-USE AS
A WEAPON
TOWARDS ENEMIES,C.-PEDOPHILE-PANIC IN MEDIA IS USED TO STOP PEOPLE
SEE SATANIC
RITUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN IN SATANISM?
[ [link] ]
CREATING CONTROL SOCIETY(MIND CONTROL,PSYCHIATRY,MICROCHIP
IDS ,COMPUTER
CONTROL,ECHELON,HAARP...)?
( [ [link] ] )
ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTHROPHY IS A LIE-IN HISTORY EARTH HAS HAD MORE
HOT PERIODS
WITHOUT PROBLEMS,AND IT MAY BE ONE WAY TO CREATE CHAOS OR MAKE WORLD
ACCEPT
EXCEPTIONAL CONTROL.(ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHE IS NOT EXISTING:trees
and
plants make more CO2 if needed,-even if polar areas melt,it doesn`t
raise
surface of seas(It`s a scientific fact.Put an icecube in a glass and
when
it melts there is equal amount of water than there was ice.),and
earth has
had much more hot long lasting periods without problems- so all this
environmental
catastrophy panic is caused only to make people worried and in order
to
create a chaos/anarchy(creating also criminals with the help of wrong
kind
of policework,unjustice and psychiatry?) and then war/police-state or
something
like this etc,etc.)-business:f.ex. car industry makes cars lasting
only
few years(and repairing costs a lot),but even at 60`s some car
companies
made cars which were still good after 20 years use['world would use
electric-cars,if
'Dallas-oil companies would profit more with it'?]- psychiatry,using ?
middle-age
methods[there is lots of documents about 2 billion USD psychiatric
drug-business,making
people only worse,and f.ex. causing violence and (most of cases
could be
treated only by changing their environment)[sources:based on writers
memory:Citizens
Commission on Human Rights(CCHR)and Radical perspectives in psychology
(Nick
Heather)] -governments omitting to create people enough jobs and
homes,handle
illiteracy,etc?(evil=good?).DAVID ICKE HAS STATED THAT MODEL WHAT
THIS
SATANIC ADMINISTRATION
IS USING,IS TO CREATE A PROBLEM AND THEN OFFER A SOLUTION TO IT.THIS
IS
HOW THEY MAKE PEOPLE TO ACCEPT BAD THINGS(9/11=TERROR
LAWS,CONTROL,IRAK
WAR,-ANNA LINDHS MURDER=USE OF DNA IN POLICEWORK,ETC.)?
"Rebecca Brown then proceeds to relate her story,... how she met up with Elaine who entered
the
Satanic group known as "The Brotherhood."She also became the
Regional Bride
of Satan.
Elaine ,www.chickcomics.com:"I also made a number of trips to
other countries...Mecca,Israel,Egypt,also the Vatican in Rome to meet
the
Pope...my trips were for the purpose of coordinating Satan's
programs
with satanists...The Pope knew very well who I was. We
worked
closely both with the Catholics(especially the Jesuits)and the high-
ranking
Masons.... I met many of the well known
Rock music
stars.They all signed contracts with Satan in return for fame and
fortune.
The evolution of Rock music in the U.S. was carefully planned by
Satan and
carried out by his servants step by step."
"... There was a whole town that was made up of Satanists and they
had a
Satanists' church, but they also had a lot of denominational
Christian Churches
they attended to put on a good front."
(Brown mentions big companies which are connected to satanistic
people or
families.)
"...Elaine then describes the witches standard 8 point plan for
penetrating
churches and destroying them from the inside out.
[link]
"... then, the Vatican cooperated with the Nazis inside and outside
Germany.
The Catholic
Hierarchy sent congratulatory greetings to Hitler and supported him
fully."
[ QUOTE: [link] ]
WWW.Chickcomics.com:VATICAN CHURCH IS MOST RICH ORGANIZATION ON EARTH.
"I questioned Dr. Rivera about the briefings he recievied in the
Vatican
when he was a Jesuit priest.I asked him if he was briefed on how the
Vatican
planned to take over the United States...I asked Dr. Rivera: What
about
the military picture today?How Catholic is our military position?
"Dr. Rivera said: Horrifying.
...
"Then I said: What about the Catholic structure in the judiciary?
"Dr. Rivera shook his head and said:... Most of the Judicial
decisions are
distorting and perverting the Constitution of the United States to
take
away our freedoms,preparing the way for anarchy for the final take-
over
of the United States.
I HAVE READ THAT 3 MOST BIG BANKS IN USA WOULD GO TO BANKRUPTCY IF
DRUG
BUSINESS WOULD END-AND THAT ONCE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAD TO STOP DRUG
DEALING
DURING 2 DAYS,AND THEY DID IT.SO IT´S POSSIBLE TO STOP DRUGS,BUT
GOVERNMENTS
ALLOW DRUGS.
"SATANISTS" ARE INFILTRATING THEMSELVES ALSO INTO
POLICEFORCES,INTELLIGENCES(=NEW
WORLD ORDER-POLICE COMING?POLICE IGNORING CRIME REPORTS ABOUT
SATANISTS?):CHURCH
OF SATANS HOMEPAGE HAVE NAZI-TYPE IDEAS
ABOUT POLICEFORCES AGAINST "CRIMINALS",CALLED "SCUM",AND F.EX.
SKULL&BONES
LINKS TELL ABOUT CIAs CONNECTIONS TO THOSE GUYS.INTELLIGENCES AND
POLICE
HAS STARTED TO RECRUIT CRIMINALS TO THEIR ACTIVITIES,IF THEY JOIN
SATANISM(GOAL:"NEW
GESTAPO")?
Of all these agencies of the Cold War era,the CIA would stand out as
a
singular power center for Yale University alumni in general and Skull
&
Bones initiates in particular. The term "spooks," the well-known CIA
term
for a clandestine operator, was originally Yale campus argot for a
secret
society member.ALSO BLACK POPES JESUIT ARMYS IS SAID TO BE CONNECTED OR IN CONTROL OF ALL INTELLIGENCES ON EARTH.
Quote: [ [link] ]
(Intelligences
may also use/recruite gay-people,because gays are easy to blackmail
because
of their perversion,and they already have their own
secret "underground-cult".And
because of discrimination they may be eager to get help themselves
this way.)
POLICE HAS STARTED TO ALLOW CRIMES(OR EVEN PARTICIPATE THEMSELVES
INTO THEM),IN
ORDER TO INVESTIGATE OR GET EVIDENCES AND SOLVE CRIMES.FOR ME THIS
SOUNDS
STRANGE,AND I THINK POLICE SHOULD STOP CRIMINALITY IMMEDIATELY WHEN
THEY
NOTE IT.
MEDIA IS FILLED WITH LONE KILLERS,WEIRDOS,INSTEAD OF REAL CRIMES
WHICH ARE
DONE BY GROUPS,BECAUSE LINKS IN MANY CASES WOULD LEAD TO THIS SECRET
ADMINISTRATION.(ALSO MEDIA AND POLICE FOCUS ON PEDOPHILES,INSTEAD OF PEROPHILE RINGS).NOW POLICEWORK
IS ONLY HANDLING LOWEST LEVEL OF CRIMINALS.
DNA PROOFS ARE DEMANDED BY POLICE,BUT THEY CAN BE ABUSED ALSO,AND AS
AN
TYING EVIDENCE IT SHOULD BE USED REALLY CAREFULLY SO THAT IT´S
CHECKED AND PROVED THAT
NO-ONE HAS USED DNA TO FRAME OTHERS.
HAS ANYONE ASKED HOW LONE MURDERERS LIKE HARVEY,SIRHAN SIRHAN,LUTHER
KINGS
AND RFKS
MURDERERS,OLOF PALMES AND ANNA LINDHS MURDERERS "WERE ABLE" TO AFFECT
POLICEFORCES
SO THAT POLICEWORK WERE NOT SUFFICIENT OR EVEN BELOW
NORMAL,INVESTIGATIONS
WERE NOT DONE PROPERLY,(STRANGE DEATHS OF WITNESSES?) AND MANY OTHER
THINGS
WERE LACKING WITH INVESTIGATIONS
OF THESE HIGHEST CLASS IMPORTANCE CRIMES.(RECOGNIZING A SATANIC
CRIME/TRICK?:HAVING
A PARTY AFTER CRIME (F.EX.MURDER),OR:WHILE HAVING A PARTY,MAKING
SOMEONE
ELSE TO SUFFER).
I´M NOT SAYING THAT ALL THOSE PEOPLE IN CATHOLICISM , MASONS OR EVEN
IN SATANISM ARE BAD OR GUILTY ONES, BUT FOR SURE THEY CAN BE UNDER
THIS
SAME COMMAND OF HIGHEST SATANISM-OBEYING MEMBERS OF THEIR GROUPS(ABOUT
WHICH THEY ARE NOT AWARE OF) AND THIS WAY SUPPORTING TOTALLY NEW-
WORLD-ORDER
`MASTER PLAN`.
SO, PROPABLY MOST LOWER LEVEL MEMBERS OF THOSE ORGANISATIONS MAY BE
NORMAL PEOPLE,WHO DON´T WANT ANY HARM,BUT ARE IN THOSE ORDERS FOR
SOME REASONS(HELPS
CAREER,FAMILY,ETC.).DAVID ICKE WRITES THAT ADMINISTRATION MODEL OF
THEIR
IS LIKE A PYRAMID,OR PYRAMIDS IN PYRAMIDS.THOUGH IT´S SAID THAT
F.EX.IN
SATANISM EVERY MEMBER
MUST KILL SOMEONE IN ORDER TO BECOME A MEMBER.
ACTION MODEL OF THIS SECRET ESTABLISHMENT TO MAKE THINGS ACCEPTABLE
FOR
PUBLIC IS TO CREATE A PROBLEM,AND THEN OFFER A SOLUTION FOR THIS
PROBLEM:F.EX."--
how in the 30's Hitler had his fascists burn the Reichstag down and
then
blamed the Communists."THIS WAY HITLER GOT ACCEPTANCE OF PEOPLE.
(=911/Bush?)THEY
HAVE
SUPPORTED NAZIS,TERRORISTS AND COMMUNISTS IN ORDER TO CREATE CHAOS TO
GET
WARS AND/OR CONTROL.THEY MAY BE BEHIND ALL BAD THINGS ON EARTH,F.EX.
MALNUTRITION,WARS,PSYCHIATRY,CORRUPTION,MAKING
LIFE AND SOCIETIES CHAOTIC,911,EVEN AIDS,ETC.
[QUOTE: [link]
]
SATANIC ADMINISTRATION ALSO BEHIND MAKING STUDYING SO EXPENSIVE THAT
EVERYONE
CANNOT DO IT(SO THAT THEY CAN SELECT ,WHO GETS EDUCATION...)?Skull &
Bones
Society: How The Order Controls Education/ Science has largely been a
success
when applied to "dead" things such as matter and energy -
electronics, mechanics,
civil engineering, physics and chemistry. It has been a complete
failure
when applied to individuals (i.e. psychiatry, modern psychology) and
societies
(sociology, group psychology, mass manipulation, behavioral control).
Instead,
"science", working with governments and "advertizers" have primarily
spent
all their time and energy figuring out how to control and manipulate
minds,
to forward their ideas of "order", "social harmony", and "peace".[
QUOTE:
[link] ]
THEY ARE CREATING
WARS,ACTUALLY
RULING WHOLE WORLD,AND CREATING ANTI-CHRISTIANITY,AND HARMAGEDDON
(F.EX.911)?USING
PSYCHOLOGICAL LEARNINGS WITH HELP OF MEDIA ,TO RUIN MORALITY.THEY ARE
CREATING
ALL VIOLENCE ON THE PLANET(F.EX. DRUGS ARE CREATING MOST OF VIOLENCE
EXISTING)CREATING
DRUG-,GANG- OR SEX-CULTS AND CHAOS OR VIOLENCE TO CREATE A SATANISTIC
WORLD.(BEFORE
STARTING A WAR AGAINST POLAND NAZI-GERMANY USED PORN IN ORDER TO
DESTROY
MORALS OF POLISH PEOPLE.NAZIS SENDED LOTS OF PORN TO POLAND THAT
TIME.I
THINK THAT REVEALS HOW FREE PORN DISTRIBUTION AFFECTS TO SOCIETY,AND
IS
ONE WAY TO CREATE CHAOS).MUSLIMS
AND CATHOLICS ARE SEND EVERYWHERE BY THEM-TO STOP CHRISTIANITY?THIS DOESN´T MEAN THAT WE SHOULD DISCRIMINATE IMMIGRANTS,BUT CHECK IMMIGRATION,AND WHO ARE MEN BEHIND SENDING POSSIBLY CRIMINALS OR EXTREMISTS TO WEST?JFK-
MOVIE
SHOWS JFKS MURDERS CONNECTION TO WAR(-"LORDS").OSAMA BIN
LADEN,PSYCHIATRIST
AL-ZAWAHIRI(HYPNOTIZED OSAMA-BIN LADENS PILOTS,CREATING HATE AMONGST
MUSLIMS)
AND RADOVAN KARADZIC(PSYCHIATRIST BEHIND RACISM/NAZISM AND GENOCIDE
IN SERBIA)
ARE STILL LIVING IN FREEDOM.WHY?WERE THEY SUPPORTED BY SATANIC
ADMINISTRATION
ALSO,AND MAY LIVE FREE BECAUSE OF THAT?(I GUESS CIA/USA CAN FIND
THEM,IF
THEY WANT.)
POLITICALLY THEY KEEP MIDDLE-CLASS DOWN,CREATING ELITISM,MAKING
PEOPLE SLAVES
OF SOCIETY?MEDICAL/FOOD INDUSTRY AND MEDIA.F.EX.CAR INDUSTRY MAKES
NEW CARS
TO LAST ONLY FEW YEARS,EVEN ALREADY IN 60,S THEY MADE CARS WHICH
LASTED
20 YEARS OR MORE.
THEY MAKE POLITICS SO DULL,THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT INTERESTED ABOUT IT.
(BASICALLY
POLITICS MEANS `HANDLING MATTERS`AND IS VERY SIMPLE THING.)THIS IS
F.EX.
DONE BY USING TERMINOLOGY WHICH MOST PEOPLE CANNOT UNDERSTAND
EASILY.BASICLY
THE MISSION OF POLITICS IS TO SECURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE HOME,WORK AND
SAFETY.
(HOUSING IS MADE ONLY BIG REAL ESTATE COMPANIES METHOD OF MAKING
MONEY.F.EX.I´VE
BEEN TOLD THAT HELSINKI-AREA IS DIVIDED BETWEEN DIFFERENT
CONSTRUCTION COMPANIES,AND
WHY WOULD THIS BE DIFFERENT THAN IN ANY OTHER WESTERN CITY.CORRUPTED
OR
STUPID
POLITICIANS OBEY THEM OR CANNOT CHANGE SITUATION.STATES COULD EASILY
CHANGE
LAWS SO THAT RENTING ROOMS WOULD BE PROFITABLE,OR ON THE OTHER HAND
STATES
COULD BUILD AS MUCH BUILDINGS AS THEY WANT,AND ACTUALLY IT WOULD BE
CHEAPER
THAN HANDLING PROBLEMS COMING BECAUSE OF LACK OF APARTMENTS.IF WE
THINK
SATANIC ADMINISTRATION,HOMELESS PEOPLE AND KEEPING PRICES UP IS WHAT
THEY
WANT,IF GOAL IS EVILNESS)
THEY STEAL VOTES IN ORDER TO GET THEIR CANDIDATES PRESIDENTS:
"...Your vote and mine may now be a meaningless bit of energy
directed by
preprogrammed computers-which can be fixed to select certain pre-
ordained
candidates and leave no footprints or paper trail.
"In short, computers are covertly stealing your vote.
"--For almost three decades the American vote has been subject to
government-sponsored
electronic theft.
"--The vote has been stolen from you by a cartel of federal "national
security"
bureaucrats, who include higher-ups in the Central Intelligence
Agency,
political party leaders, Congressmen, co-opted journalists -- and the
owners
and managers -- of the major Establishment news media, who have
decided
in concert that how America's votes are counted, by whom they are
counted
and how the results are verified and delivered to the public is, as
one
of them put it, 'Not a proper area of inquiry.'
"--By means of an unofficial private corporation named News Election
Service
(NES), the Establishment press has actual physical control of the
counting
and dissemination of the vote, and it refuses to let the public know
how
it is done."
Quote:[ [link] ]
STEALING OR MANIPULATING VOTES MAY ALSO HAPPEN OTHER COUNTRIES,THERE
IS
MANY WAYS TO DO THAT.
(WAYS HOW THEY HANDLE DATAS REVEALING THESE THINGS?:1.DATA LABELED
UNTRUE.2.SOURCE
OF DATA LABELED LIAR/NOT WORTH TO BELIEVE.3.SOURCE OF DATA
BLACKMAILED.4.SOURCE
OF DATA LABELED GRAZY.5.SOURCE OF DATA HANDLED SO THAT HE CANNOT GIVE
ANYMORE
DATA.7.IN MOST EXTREME CASES KILLED.)?
INTERNET AND MOBILES IS MOST BIG SPYING SYSTEM EVER EXISTED.ALL DATAS
CAN
BE CHECKED.WHEN THEY GET MICROCHIP ID´S TO EVERY PERSON IS A CONTROL
SOCIETY
,"1984", "BRAVE NEW WORLD", OR NEW WORLD ORDER PERFECT.
I´VE BEEN TOLD THAT THERE WILL BE NUCLEARBOMB IN MIDDLE-EAST,WHICH
SHOULD
START 3rd WORLD WAR,OR HARMAGEDDON,WHICH IS THE GAME THEY ARE
SUPPOSED TO
"PLAY" ON EARTH.IT´S PLAYED ACCORDING BIBLES BOOK OF REVELATION(BARRY
MAYSON/TONY
MARCO MENTIONS ALSO BOOK NAMED "666")?
MAYBE THIS?:(CHECK LINK:)
[ [link] ]

I DON´T KNOW WHY THEY DO
THIS,BUT
IF THEY WORSHIP SATAN,I GUESS EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE?NOW AT LEAST
MUSLIMS
AND JEWS/CHRISTIANS ARE MADE ENEMIES IN MANY COUNTRIES,AND SAME TIME
MUSLIMS
HAVE OCCUPIED ALMOST WHOLE WESTERN WORLD.IS THIS A LONG TIME PLAN TO
MAKE
A WAR OR CHAOS?(NEW WORLD ORDER-JESUIT/ILLUMINATI HAS SENDED THEM HERE TO FUTURE "KILL CHRISTIANS"-MISSION?)I WOULD LIKE EVERY CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIM TO SEE THAT NO
NORMAL
MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN HAS NOTHING AGAINST EACH OTHERS,AND THEY COULD
LIVE
NORMAL LIVES WITHOUT VIOLENCE.ALSO BOTH RELIGIONS ARE AGAINST
SATAN,AND
THEY COULD RECOGNIZE SATANS WORKS,AND RESIST SATANISTIC VIOLENT
WORLD.TRUE
CHRISTIANITY CREATES PEACE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT
F.EX.ISRAEL HAS
DONE(Whole Middle-East problem maybe created by this satanic
administration
also by making both sides act against each others?LIKE RADOVAN
KARADZIC
CREATED HATE BETWEEN MUSLIMS AND SERBS IN EX-YOGOSLAVIA).ALMOST ALL
WORLD
GOVERNMENTS AND GROUPS MAY BE UNDER THIS SATANIC WORLD ORDER.
(SATANISM SUPPORTING
EVERY NON-CHRISTIAN GROUP?)STASI IN DDR HAD ABOUT 400 000
MEMBERS/INFORMERS,I
CLAIM THAT SATANIC ADMINISTRATION MAY ALREADY HAVE 4-40 MILLION
MEMBERS/INFORMERS...
Link to my research:
[ [link]
]
WE MAY NOT ACCUSE USA BECAUSE OF THESE THINGS,WHICH ARE CREATED BY
SMALL
ELITE GROUP.USA IS ONE OF MOST POSITIVE THINGS ON THIS PLANET AND
IT´S HAPPY
PEOPLE,WITH RIGHT FINE VALUES,AMERICAN DREAM,WORK,ABILITY,HONESTY ARE
THINGS
WE SHOULD HAVE INTERNATIONALLY.(ON THE OTHER HAND PRIMITIVE SOCIETIES
AND
DEVELOPING COUNTRIES DICTATORSHIPS HAS BEEN SUPPORTED BY WAR
INDUSTRY.SO,WE
SHOULDN´T ACCUSE F.EX. MUSLIMS EITHER.F.EX.FRANCE GAVE RWANDA WEAPONS
WHICH
WERE USED IN MASSMURDERS THERE).MY VIEWPOINT IS THAT USA STILL MUST
BE NUMBER
1,MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY OF OUR PLANET(F.EX.THESE THINGS WRITTEN HERE
SHOWS
USA STILL HAVING FREEDOM OF SPEECH,WHICH IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES
DOESN´T
EXIST).AND CRUELTIES MADE BY GOVERNMENTS IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES
SUPPORTS
THIS VIEWPOINT OF MINE,EVEN IF WE INCLUDE 911 INTO THIS.

AS A SOLUTION TO THESE THINGS I FIND NEXT THINGS:1.DECLEARING
SATANISM CRIMINAL
ACTIVITY(SAME WAY AS NAZISM IS DECLARED AFTER WORLD WAR 2)-OF COURSE
ANYONE
CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT THEMSELVES,BUT WHEN THERE IS ORGANIZED
GROUPS,HUMAN
SACRIFICE OR SEXUAL ABUSE,IT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED. - 2.NORDIC-TYPE
CHRISTIANITY
(NOT A FANATIC TYPE OF CHRISTIANITY.INCLUDES F.EX.
FORGIVENESS,LOVE,WORKING,HONESTY,PRAYING
JESUS CHRIST)- 3. SCIENTOLOGY. 4.-UNDERSTANDING THE IMPORTANCE OF
APPRECIATING
SMALL CHILDREN,UNDER 4 YEAR,INSTEAD OF DESTROYING THEIR NATURAL
GREATNESS(SOURCES
LEADING INTO THIS IDEA:ALEKSANTERI AHOLA-VALO AND L.RON
HUBBARD).5.COMMUNICATION:
ALLOWING FREE COMMUNICATION(F.EX.INTERNET HAS GIVEN NOW POSSIBILITIES
TO
THIS;ANYONE CAN SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING) 6.-TRUTH (SAID BY GENIUS
TOIVICCO:"TRUTH
IS A POWER(TRY TELLING TRUTH ,AND YOU WILL SEE THAT IT HAS
POWER.F.EX. IT
MAY VERY WELL BE THAT SOME PEOPLE TRY TO STOP YOU TELLING
TRUTHS)."Adolf
Hitler,satanist, said: "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep
saying it, and eventually they will believe it".Jesus explains that
the
devil is the father of all lies: "Ye are of your father the devil,
and the
lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the
beginning, and
abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he
speaketh
a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of
it" (John
8:44). EVEN IF WE DON´T BELIEVE SATAN OR JESUS,WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT
TO
PRACTISE THEIR "RELIGION" SATANS WORSHIPPERS MAY LIE.)I THINK PEOPLE
WANT
TRUE DATA.
ONE POSSIBLE SOLUTION:There has been The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC),WHICH SOLVED PROBLEMS AFTER SOUTH AFRICAS APARTHEID,AND THIS METHOD COULD BE USED ALSO TO HANDLE ILLUMINATI/FREE MASONS,ETC.JESUIT/ILLUMINISTS HAVE BEEN STOPPED TO ENTER MANY COUNTRIES MANY TIMES DURING HISTORY,AND I SUGGEST ALL NATIONS TO DO IT NOW.AND START THIS TRC AND HANDLE WORLD ILLUMINATI SECRET SOCIETIES(INCLUDING ILLUMINATI,JESUITS,BILDERBERG,FREE MASONS,ETC.ETC.?)
[ LINK: [link] ]

SOME LINKS(IT´S POSSIBLE THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION THEMSELVES SPREAD
SOME
STRANGE RUMOURS ABOUT THEM,SO THAT ALL DATA ABOUT THIS CONSPIRACY
SEEMS
WEIRD,AND NEXT LINKS MAY BE ONE OF THEM.F.EX.IT´S POSSIBLE THAT DAVID
ICKE
IS "ILLUMINATI-MEMBER",AND PUBLISHING HIS DATAS TO MAKE THESE THINGS
SEEM
WEIRD):
[link]
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...of_satanist.htm
(I want to mention also that it´s easy to say whatever,but people
should
be more interested and respect those ones who really can do
things,make
something positive happen;businessmen,politicians,etc.)
ALL GOOD PEOPLE,PLEASE FORWARD AND PUBLISH THIS IMPORTANT
INFORMATION,if sold,I demand right to get my
share
out of income.)
***************************
TORE TOIVICCO IS A CHRISTIAN POLITICIAN,pop-ARTIST AND RESEARCHER OF
SATANISM
AND SATANIC CRIME.(I HAVE USED WORDS SATANISM,NEW WORLD ORDER AND ILLUMINATI/-MANAGEMENT/ADMINISTRATION TO DESCRIBE THAT PROPABLE ADMINISTRATION WHICH HAS HIDDEN POWER ON EARTH DECIDING ABOVE GOVERNMENTS.I DON´T WANT THESE WORDS TO BE USED AGAINST ANY MEMBER OF ANY RELIGION OR ANYONE WHATEVER RELIGIOUS BELIEFS HE HAS,or anything I can be accused.I DENY ANY SUCH USE OF any DATA of THIS MESSAGE WHICH CAN CAUSE THAT I could be ACCUSED OR SUED ACCORDING ANY LAWS.COPYRIGHT TORE TOIVICCO AND OTHER COPYRIGHT OWNERS or copyright holders.
(IF YOU WANT TO BECOME A SPONSOR OF TORE TOIVICCOS HOMEPAGE (or
sponsor
of my research),CONTACT: NOBORG@SURFY.NET)
......
Don´t try this at home,(f.ex.internet) or any other place!I forbid readers to use any of my data to any activity.ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.I DENY ALL RIGHTS FOR USING THIS MESSAGE ANY WAY WHICH CAN CAUSE ME TO BE ACCUSED.
SOURCE/QUOTES OF THE JON ERIC PHELPS INTERVIEW(IF IN THIS MESSAGE) is from the May 2000 issue of The SPECTRUM Newspaper.Contacting information for The SPECTRUM is as follows:
Website: [link]
E-mail address: thespectrum@tminet.com
Telephone: 1(877) 280-2866 toll-free (US & Canada)
1(661) 823-9696 (All others)
Regular mail: 9101 West Sahara Ave., PMB158, Las Vegas, NV 89117,USA
4/15/00 RICK MARTIN
The SPECTRUM Newspaper, May 2000
[link]
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/blackpope.htm
[link]
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/blackpope.htm

Use of word satanism or satanist IN MY WRITINGS MEANS EVERYONE WHO IS SATANIC OR OCCULT GROUP OR COVEN MEMBERS,REALLY PRACTISING REAL HARDCORE SATANOLOGY,INSTEAD OF DABBLING SATANISTS,WHO MAYBE DON'T DO MUCH HARM TO ANYONE.(WHOLE TERMINOLOGY IS ONLY ONE WAY TO FOOL PEOPLE,THERE IS ONLY ONE SATANISM!) SATANISM HAS ALSO MADE HUGE AMOUNTS OF PEOPLE THEIR MEMBERS DURING LAST 10-15 YEARS,AND THOSE NEWLY RECRUITED PEOPLE MAY BE ONLY ONES WHO ARE KNOWN TO BE IN SATANISM AND WHO LOOK LIKE SATANISTS,F.EX.GOTH AND DEATH METAL FANS, -AND THEY EVEN MAY BE FOOLED TO DO CRIMES,BUT THEY ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.REAL SATANIC ADMINISTRATION IS AMONGST HIGHEST PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET(OR ABOVE THEM).
- TORE TOIVICCO
-----
FAIR USE NOTICE:
This message/writing contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the
copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human
rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.For more informa-tion go to: [link] If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission
from the copyright owner.
-----
All information posted in this writing is the opinion of the author and is provided for educational purposes only. It is not to be construed as medical advice. Only a licensed medical doctor can legally offer medical advice in the United States. Consult the healer of your choice for medical care and advice.  



29 Aug 2006 @ 17:39 by Who killed mohammed cartoon maker? @81.69.178.138 : WhatFreedom of speech?



If there is freedom of speech in Jewish (Zionists, Romans, Protestant, media they would have published openly on TV how Allah killed the 2 Mohamed cartoon makers.

1 of theme was sitting in a restaurant and suddenly a swarm of at least a million killer honey bees attacked him. No one else sitting next to him got attacked by even 1 bee. The stings where on every millimetre of his body and even in his mouth, his longs and other internal organs including his balls.

(Note many people have made evil, porn and fitly insult pictures of Jesus and Moses and noting happened to them.)

The other mohamed cartoon maker died also a slow and terrible painful dead.

Why don’t they publish this on T.V.? Otherwise everyone will no that those puppets, dummies and graves they worship don’t help theme against the punishment of Allah
Anyway they are afraid of the reality. But they now that they are waiting to be guided by Satan and Omen



Jesus is a Muslim! He shall come and help Muslims to fight puppet worshippers, dummy worshipper, grave worshippers and all the other followers of omen and satan.

Finaly jesus will help muslims to the row of Mohammed. And then he will Muslims to Allah!  



8 Sep 2006 @ 19:18 by Hdolf Aitler @84.131.103.239 : Islam Sucks
lol Islam realy sucks i see, and Mohammed is a cock sucker, bye ;)  


8 Sep 2006 @ 19:21 by Mr Jo @84.131.103.239 : Deus io Volt
Jo Moslems stinken ;)  


10 Sep 2006 @ 19:17 by Sultan Jack @68.231.51.210 : Encantoman
That Encantoman he is damn funny!!
Coming soon many pictures of Muslim Women who have become members of Sultan Jack's Whores of Islam.
Look fr it at a website near you!!!
Bye for now ..  



14 Oct 2006 @ 15:39 by muslim @207.45.115.186 : hop u will use ur brain
for all those who said that mohammed was faik or he was seeing satan i hop that he will think a littel ,that saint peter was jeuve and he was killing the real christian (in our relegion they were muslim) then suddenly he discover after he see sonthing (satan i think if u think that mohammed see it too)tell him about his new religion
but what is the differance between the 2 satan (who come to mohamad and the other who come to peter)
1-who come to peter tell him that man can kill god and put him an a cross like a dog
2-who came to mohamad tell him that god dont die even if all critchur in the all univers want to hurt him they cant change anything of his will and god take jesus to the first sky and no one hurt him
3-who came to peter tell him that we can make a stone as god figure and we can worship it
4-who came to mohamed tell him what ever u think u will nerver reach to know how god look like he is the creator of all critchur and our brain cant reach him
5-who came to peter said that god is and old man who live in heaven and he need marie to bring him a child
6-who came to mohamed said that god isnt a man or anthing we know (not light not a body )our brain cant reach to know about him he is god and marie from a world of him she get pregnet and bring a man he was his prophet like mohamed we love him and respect him as we do for mohammed and god dont need a place to be in
for those who dont know that chistinaty didnt know that marie stay virgin after she give birth to jesus only after the islam say it they know it  



15 Oct 2006 @ 11:30 by muslim @82.148.97.67 : sorry i forget to say
in islam we dont belive that jesus has die on cross ,he say that god save him by take him to the first sky and god make another person look like jesus and that person who die on cross.that explain ur idea about he rise from dead because he wasnt dead in the first but he return to see his mother befor he go to the first sky till he will return  


30 Nov 2006 @ 11:44 by rory @193.113.57.161 : Demark vs Islam
Why don't we say the same thing about Jews are you scared of the Jewish community. Its not freedom of speech, it Islam bashing. You are so big cowards. If you think that you have it take on the Jews and see what we do to you.  


1 Dec 2006 @ 08:22 by Get real @69.163.102.209 : Watch this
Watch morons. http://www.jerusalemonline.com:80/ujc.asp  


12 Dec 2006 @ 17:34 by The all mighty America @68.62.33.248 : Islam
* removed *  


12 Dec 2006 @ 17:40 by Sorry @68.62.33.248 : friend
Me and a friend are watching stuff about 9/11, and he just wrote this.
I'm sorry, I would delete it if I could. He is a idiot bigot.  



12 Dec 2006 @ 20:53 by ming : Removed
Appreciate it. I have removed the content of his message.  


15 Dec 2006 @ 03:20 by anti-power-abuse @212.242.130.70 : Denmark vs. Islam
Ok, so Denmark is AT WAR with an Islamic country. Muslims all over the world are calling the war illegal.
And what does some Danish national newspaper do? Provoke Islam! LoL thats fair!

Why? Two main reasons:

1. The propaganda blanket is very thick in Denmark, so the Danes somehow dont think they are at war. They think its some "foreign relief" program. Nope, its war, and thats a serious matter. And it dont get treated as a serious matter in Danish public debate. Its propaganda at work, huge money is being made.

2. The editor in question at Jyllands Posten who rounded up the 12 cartoons and published them, is far from impartial in the so-called debate of "Islam vs Freedom Of Speech": He is jewish, born in Ukraine and working in the former Soviet Union as pro-Israeli reporter and later correspondent to Danish TV. Afterwards he worked with Clinton. Then he supposedly jumped the line to get the culture editor's job at Jyllands Posten.
The one with Mohammad with a bomb in the turban and several others was specifically made by his own cartoonists and not one of those from the "contest".

Anyway, they need to attack Iran thats obvious. And Iran is doing everything to provoke it for some reason. But Rockerfellers are making the gain here. The Rothschilds and so on. Who are they? The winners of every war, thats who.
Follow the money, that's what's neglected in established history, dont you see?

The State of Israel should be called "The State of Rothschild".

I like Jewry very much, and it really haunts me that these people are calling themselves jewish, and I hate the fact that Israel's murderous government is associated with Jewry. Its not Jewry. Its violent imperial zionism for the few controlling rich.

The more they can divide us into "us vs. Islam" or "Islam vs. Free World" or "Islamic radicalism vs. Free World Democracy", the more we are willing to support their wars.
All they have to do is feed the hatred. Arouse a mob, call the world press, lead the mob to thrash the Danish Embassy and zoom in on the hatred.
We are fed those pictures over and over and now most Danes believe thay are violent because they hate our freedom. Ridiculous!
No, its because they live in a country with a sh*t system, and we aint doing nothing to change it or help them. And here's the point: We are actually making it worse for them.
And you know it.

We are at war! And its time to face up to the consequences of such horrific violence. Because its there everyday, its just never on television and thats why we Danes think we can go to war, and then at the same time pretend we are little angels and protectors of all good against Islamic "Hate-ideology" or something to justify it.
Their oppressive regimes are in fact funded and aided by Western financial powers and they know it. We dont.

Danes dont even realise that these ill-viewed selfproclaimed "laws of war" by the U.S., incl. torture and "mistreatment", actually applies directly to American citizens ON American soil. Thats a police state.

Unfortunately, most Americans havnt realised this yet either.

Who's making the gain here?
Al-Qaida or Rockefeller? Figure it out.
And what's CFR got to do with the Balfour-declaration? Figure it out.  



20 Jan 2007 @ 19:03 by tired of this @80.161.119.71 : belief
 


5 Mar 2007 @ 15:57 by fredoom @196.206.66.136 : freddom
http://www.arabs2day.ws/files/lebanon.htm  


5 Mar 2007 @ 16:50 by hufgirejkfn @88.106.86.7 : wat da hell???????????///
hello but wat da hell is dis syt all about i just wanted 2 s c a minging pic i woz told woz on sis syt  


18 Mar 2007 @ 07:12 by respect @124.191.181.189 : disrespect
ur all wankers
islam is the most respectful and peaceful and loving religion in the world, if any of you faggots had ne respect u wld not publish or display any fotos or images of our beautiful prophet for ne reason good or bad, in our religion it sez no images should b shown or drawn of prophet mohammed and if ne of you ppl had respect you wld understand and not draw or publish any even if you dont believe it you should hve da respect 2 da muslim community. fkn wankers  



5 Apr 2007 @ 07:15 by unomenoharm @72.148.66.81 : seed?evil?
The issue seems to me like sowing and reaping so to speak. You sow a seed and get a harvest. Pretty much is obvious whats happening and going to happen if you can have enough control over people. Its interesting to see just how many people will continue to kill each other and be persuaded to follow others. Seed=newspaper=control. Seed=flags burned=control. Seed=news=war. Seed=controlled again and again. You speak of peace and there is some but i think thats too much for some people/spirits. They need control.  


13 May 2007 @ 01:14 by مسلم @212.71.37.71 : لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله والله اكبر والعزة للمسلمين
اللهم دمر أعداء الإسلام
اللهم زلزل الأرض من تحت أقدامهم
اللهم أرنا فيهم عجائب قدرتك فإنهم لا يعجزونك
اللهم أعز الإسلام والمسلمين
وأذل الشرك والمشركين
يا رب العالمين

والسلام على من اتبع الهدى  



25 May 2007 @ 19:15 by Ali Hamidy @66.91.253.140 : Racism
The queation is not that of the freedom, it is the limits with in that freedom. Let's observe it in Plato's theory of logic; If a man is said to be free then he is free to observe any thing he wants and any thing he does or any thing he choses. Right? Right! Now what if the thing he wants belong to some one else? what if the thing he choses has been chosen by some one else? what if the thing he wants to eat belongs to some one else? I assume since it is his right then he should snatch it. right? Right! Since he is free and he can't be stopped he has the right to do any thing he wants. Now it should rais the question of what about the other guy who is involved in this case as an owner. He is a free man too and I assume you are not going to classify him as a slave and deprive him of his right. Because if you do so then you can't call the law democracy. I am sure you will agree. Thus the theory of freedom and democracy should be clear and that is that your freedom and democracy ends where my nose starts. You agree? since I am a free man too and Iam entitled to my rights too.Or you deny that? So my final words on this matter is obvious, and that is that if you insult me as a muslim then you have destroyed my freedom and my democracy that I am entitled to. You have committed a crime, you have distorted and damaged the mean of freedom and democracy too. You have insulted me for what you thaught was a joke was not a joke but a sowerd into our hearts. If you did not know that it was a huge thing for us, then you need to blame your orgin, your school of thaught and your community who brought up a kid as you. My freedom is my right and none can damage it, not even the law.  


8 Jun 2007 @ 16:11 by ibondage @172.202.56.110 : free?
Free country?  


17 Jun 2007 @ 23:51 by sana @172.202.204.143 : Learn to bloody Respect!
guess Wht all the M***** F*****s here are loaded with bullshit!

Have you ever seen any muslim press making fun of other religions? Bloody hell, wht was wrong with tht bastard who thought he could fuck around with the feelings of Muslims, that M***** F*****!!!

oh how abt Me makin a cartoon of Your bloody mama!!! bastards!!! how would u feel! how abt i put ur dad in front of heaven gates and tell ur fucking brothers that u can't enter heaven coz there are no fuckin vargin's left! how would u feel if i had disrespected ur beliefs...

fuckin bastards can all go fuck them selves  



23 Jun 2007 @ 23:07 by Gordon Tryon @70.68.185.150 : gortry@shaw.ca
A lot of crackpot posts on this site. Any kind of intellectual laziness or obsessive irrationalism holds out the eventuality of submitting to the larger darkness known as Islam. If the shadow of Mohammadanism-its true designation- is to pass from the earth, clear thinking and courage and a sense of humor will be its nemesis, not conspiracy theories... And here we are, eighteen months on and once again the mad dogs of Islamabad and Londonistan are on the rampage, this time because the British government has had the temerity to knight Salman Rushdie, apostate author and fatwaee. Heads off to Sir Salman!  


12 Jul 2007 @ 23:32 by Martin @70.59.176.199 : ISLAM SUCKS!
There is only one thing to remember , and that is,

Islam SUCKS!.

SAY IT!

ADMIT IT!

ISLAM SUCKS!  



17 Jul 2007 @ 23:26 by Joey @70.59.176.199 : joeysmith77993@aol.com
The only reason that Mohammed was born was so SATAN could be represented here on earth.  


12 Oct 2007 @ 20:50 by cat @66.204.73.130 : to anyone to happen opon this
man this is long...
-.- Yawn  



27 Nov 2007 @ 18:14 by RS @189.19.250.236 : Religions are the today's world Cancer!
I know that having beliefs are part of the human being but religions are turning themselves in the CANCER of our planet, in specific Islam that kill with no mercy for whatever they judge as being against them.
They do what Catholic churchs did a few centuries ago and today they apologise.

The world will be in peace when these people wake up from this bullshit and see that those people that they call prophets were only great leaders of their times.
Allah/Mohammed, Jesus, Budah .... all of them were great leaders but people venerate, they worship those people as if they did magic and if they still do something. They were leaders full stop.
Now people follow them using and reading an arcaic book that should have been burned together with all the other bibles.
We should be producing new Bibles, like how to care for the elders, to care for the next, to care for our planet. People only think about consumption, to have and not to share ...to hate and not to love, we should love each other as if they were our brother, it doesnt fucking matter if they once were jew, islamic or catholic.... living with dignity and allowing people to live as they wish.

Millions of people in the world are starving to death while other people are burning money, wasting food and killing each other for reasons that they dont even know or have no real meaning whatsoever.

The human race are going to be extinct because of their ignorance and incapacity to evolve and leave the old crap behind.  



28 Nov 2007 @ 15:34 by Sila @83.64.213.246 : What so..
I am from Denmark and i see that it was stupid for some danish people to draw that cartoon. And remember its not me so dont get mad at me! But still why are we makeing such a big deal about this? We are not little girls or boys having a fight about who is wrong or write. And if you are from Denmark ( like me) or Islam and you are saying that your country its better. Well then f¨¨k up because this isnt such a big deal and dont act like a stupid kid. Take this like a serious person and say it was wrong what both countries did and thats the end of it. not so much fuss about it! Its done and we cant change it, say sorry, period, thats the end of the story!!  


1 Dec 2007 @ 23:45 by Gert @87.51.250.179 : Denmark
So, are you still offended? Did the "mass" protestings gain the muslims anything but bad media cover?

I noticed some argued the danish press wasn't allowed to print cartoons offending Jews, making fun of the holocaust, and printing cartoons making fun of the danish PM or Queen. And thereby conclude free speach was based on double standards.
Those of you making such statements need to realize its perfectly alright to make fun of any public figure in Denmark. And you are entitled to deny any historical fact you may seem fit. And you are entitled to make fun of any religious figure you may seem fit.
You're entitled to stand in any public place and preach the glory of Islam, and pray bending east. You're allowed to run demonstrations, calling the danish government sons of dogs raped by pigs, and wipe your ass in the danish flag before burning it.
But you're not allowed to physically harm another person, and burn another countrys flag on danish soil.. Do you think we have anything in common?  



16 Jan 2008 @ 16:37 by not muhammed @99.233.84.166 : the truth
Comment: When Muhammed was about 50 years old he had dreams of marrying a child, Aisha, who was only about 4-5 years old. How do we know this? Muhammed lived about 570 A.D. to 632 A.D., he became 62 years old. Hadith tells us that when he first slept with Aisha she was only nine years old, and that she then remained with him for the last nine years of his life. 62-9=53, so Muhammed was 53 years old when he first slept with the 9-year old child Aisha, who played with dolls... When he dreamed of marrying her she was six years old, or younger, so Muhammed was about 50 years old then. Why would a 50-year old man want a young child?  


27 Jan 2008 @ 15:20 by Saad @82.31.88.255 : O fellow christians, what you gotta say?
"If there be any mistake in the Bible, there may well be a thousand. If there be one falsehood in that book, it did not come from the God of truth."

— John Wesley (July 24, 1776)


Ever used the "Ctrl-F" function? You can search for a word or phrase on this page. Try it!

1. Have you ever read the entire Bible, cover to cover? Why not? If you haven't read the whole thing, why do you claim to believe that every word of it is true?

Think about it ... your Heavenly Father, the creator of the entire universe, who sent his only Son to die for your sins ... has written only one book, just for you ... and you've never even read it!

2. The Bible orders you to kill witches; it is the explicit, unequivocal commandment of your God (Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27). And no, I'm not "taking those verses out of context;" go ahead and look them up. I'll wait.

I am a witch ... a card-carrying pentagram-wearing circle-casting Tarot-card-reading Sabbat-celebrating witch (merry meet!). If we met, and I assured you that I am in fact a witch (I'll swear to it on your Bible if you like), would you kill me? If not, why not? You should obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29). Are there any other parts of the Bible that you routinely disobey? Does this mean that you have a rebellious spirit, and need to repent?

Or does it perhaps mean that you obey only the easy commandments of God ("Love thy neighbor") and ignore the commandments that might get you into trouble?

How would you like it if MY holy book ordered me to kill Christians ("Thou shalt not suffer a Bible-thumper to live")? Would it make you a little bit nervous if we got into the same elevator?

3. In Genesis 22, God ordered Abraham to kill his own child. If God gave you a personal, direct order to kill your own child, would you obey Him? If not, why not? Surely you don't think you're smarter than Abraham, do you?

And by the way, if you DID receive such an order (from a booming, disembodied voice emanating from the sky), how would you verify that it was really God, and not a trick (I hope that you would be just the least little bit skeptical if you heard such a voice)?

What if your God didn't order you to murder your own son, but ordered you to do something else that you knew was morally wrong. What if God ordered you to kill yourself? Or if he ordered you to have sexual intercourse with a seven-year-old girl?

4. Do you believe that rabbits chew cud? Your God does ... he said it twice (Leviticus 11:6, Deuteronomy 14:6-7).

5. Are you aware that the Old Testament contains absolutely no descriptions of the afterlife — either heaven OR hell? Why do you think this is?

6. Mark 16:18 says that if a Christian drinks deadly poison, it won't hurt him at all. Are you a Christian? If I gave you some poison, would you drink it? Ready to put your money where your mouth is? Ready to "step out in faith?"

7. Do you believe that God creates evil, as the Bible states (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)? If you believe this, why do you worship Him?

8. I read in Matthew 2:23 that it was spoken by the prophets that "He [Jesus] shall be called a Nazarene." Can you find this prophecy in the Old Testament for me, please, or in any other writing that existed prior to 31 CE?

9. Joshua 10:12ff tells a story about God making the sun "stand still" for about one extra day. This would certainly have been noticed by every human being on earth. Do you ever wonder why there are no other accounts of this event, anywhere, in non-Biblical historical writings?

By the way ... even if the sun did "stand still," wouldn't the earth still be revolving? People on earth wouldn't be able to tell the difference, would they?

10. Ecclesiastes 1:4 says that the earth will last forever; II Peter 3:10 says that it won't. Which do you believe?

11. Genesis 6:19 tells us that God ordered Noah to take one pair of each animal into the ark. Genesis 7:2 tells us that God ordered Noah to take seven of every clean beast and two of every unclean beast. Which do you believe?

12. Ecclesiastes 1:18 says that wisdom brings grief; Ecclesiastes 8:1 says that wisdom causes one's face to shine. Which statement do you believe?

13. II Kings 2:11 says that Elijah ascended to heaven in a whirlwind. John 3:13 says that nobody before Jesus ever ascended into heaven. Which statement do you believe?

14. Do you believe that a stubborn and rebellious son should be executed in public? Your God does (Deuteronomy 21:18ff).

15. Do you believe that a medium or spiritist should be killed? Your God does (Leviticus 20:27).

16. Do you believe that people who commit adultery deserve to die? Your God does (Leviticus 20:10).



17. Do you support the death penalty for homosexuality? Your God does (Leviticus 20:13).

If you contend that these "death penalty" rules from the Old Testament no longer apply, please explain how I can determine which parts of the Bible are still valid and which aren't.

18. The Bible is an extremely bloodthirsty book. It specifies, over and over, whole categories of people who should be killed (including children who curse their parents ... Exodus 21:17). Are you aware that Silver Ravenwolf has written many books on Wicca, and that none of them recommends the killing of anyone?

19. Do you hate your mother and father? Jesus said that if you don't, you can't be his disciple (Luke 14:26). Are you disqualified from being a Christian? Isn't it time for you to repent of your sin of being a mother-lover?

20. Do you believe that anyone has ever seen God? Isaiah clearly stated that he did (Isaiah 6:1); but John said (twice) that nobody has ever seen God at any time (I John 4:12; John 1:18). Who's lying, John or Isaiah?

Some people say that Isaiah saw God "in a vision" only. Tell me, what is the qualitative difference in seeing God "in person" vs. seeing God in a vision that's provided by God himself?

21. Exodus 20:5 says that God will punish a child for his father's sin (see also Jeremiah 16:10-11); but Ezekiel 18:20 says he won't. Which do you believe?



"O Lord, Please Don't Burn Us"


(from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life")

O Lord, please don't burn us.
Don't grill or toast Your flock.
Don't put us on the barbecue,
Or simmer us in stock.
Don't braise or bake or boil us,
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
O please don't lightly poach us,
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don't fricassee or roast us,
Or boil us in a vat.
And please don't stick Thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat.



22. Do you believe that you can be saved (go to heaven after you die) if you don't believe in the virgin birth of Jesus? Are you aware that two of the four gospels [i.e., Mark and John] don't mention the virgin birth at all? Are you aware that (a) there is good reason to believe that the word translated "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14 doesn't mean "virgin," and (b) Isaiah 7:14 is the only Old Testament verse that "prophesies" the virgin birth of anybody?

And have you ever wondered why Jesus himself never once mentioned his virgin birth, in all his teachings?

[The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 that's mistranslated "virgin" is אלמה (which means "young woman"). It carries with it no indication, either way, about the young woman's sexual experience. The Hebrew word that specifically means "virgin" is בטולה, a word that we know Isaiah was familiar with, since he used it four different times - (a) Isaiah 23:12, (b) Isaiah 37:22, (c) Isaiah 47:1, and (d) Isaiah 62:5.]

23. Do you have faith in God? Does your faith express itself in love? Are you aware that the Bible says that the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love (Galatians 5:6)?

Note that it doesn't say, "The only thing that counts is believing the right details about Jesus." It doesn't say "The only thing that counts is the Bible."

24. Do you believe that a snake can talk (Genesis 3:1)? It doesn't have lips. How does it make the "w" sound?



Jesus brand toilet paper

25. Are you aware that Jesus threatened to murder children (Revelation 2:23)? Does this change your opinion about him? If not, what would it take to change your opinion about Jesus? List one thing that Jesus would have to do if he absolutely wanted to convince you that he's an asshole.

Of course, his Father [Big God, one of the other members of the Trinity] also threatened to kill children. See Hosea 9:16.

Here's what Jehovah God Almighty (the deity to whom your child prays his bedtime prayers each night) says in his book:



O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us — he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

— God (Psalm 137:8-9, NIV)


Do you, like God, ever want to throw human babies (Babylonian or otherwise) against rocks? Would doing so make you happy, as God predicts? Would you want this hideous Bible verse taught to your child in Sunday School? In a children's Bible, how do you think this verse should be illustrated? Please take a minute and do a quick sketch of Psalm 137:9 for my son.

And please explain to me your theory of how the mysterious omniscient almightiness of God could transform this detestable verse into anything other than what it is (i.e., an absolute obscenity).

And please explain to me why you believe that your God, who so casually talks about murdering infants, is "pro-life."

And please, PLEASE explain to me how you can believe (a) that the Bible is true and (2) that the God of the Bible is not a despicable psychotic bastard.

If you saw some similar statement in another sacred text, such as the Koran or the Upanishads ("O lovers of Vishnu, you will find joy when you smash infants' heads against rocks," for instance), would you be as quick to chalk it up to the unknowable infinite wisdom of that deity? Or would your immediate reaction be "Yuck?"

And speaking of illustrations for Bible stories, what kind of illustration would be appropriate in a children's Bible for the story in I Samuel 18:25-27 (David kills 200 Philistines and brings their bloody foreskins to King Saul)?

26. Do you believe that there's any Bible verse that applies to abortion? Which verse(s)? Do you believe that "abortion is murder?" If so, would you kill a doctor who was about to perform an abortion, in order to defend the "life" of the fetus? Do you think that would be justifiable homicide? Do you believe there are any circumstances where abortion is permissible? What circumstances? Rape? Incest? To save the life of the mother? If abortion is murder, why would these special circumstances make any difference — why would they make it okay to kill a helpless fetus? And please give a specific Bible verse to justify your position that abortion is permissible if it causes the death of an innocent baby who is the result of a rape.

Let's suppose it's 1888, and we're all living in Austria. Adolf Hitler's mother has just found out she's pregnant, and she's on her way to the (secret) abortion clinic. You and your foaming-at-the-mouth anti-abortion folks have two options: (1) hold a huge rally, block her path, and prevent her from getting an abortion; or (2) do nothing (i.e., mind your own business) — and the birth of a mass-murdering monster will be prevented (and you'll save the lives of six million innocent Jews). What would you do?

27. Can you show me a single Bible verse that condemns the practice of slavery? If you were God, would you have written the Bible to include a commandment against slavery? If not, why not? Do you believe that slavery is an acceptable institution? Your God obviously does. He wrote an entire book of picky little rules (including a prohibition against boiling a goat in its mother's milk - Exodus 23:19), but never condemned slavery!

Ephesians 6:5 says, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters." Imagine that it's 1863, and Lincoln issues the Emancipation Proclamation. Many American slaves at that time considered themselves to be Christians ... obligated to follow the clear teachings of the Bible. Please advise them on what they should do. Should they obey God, or men (Acts 4:19, Acts 5:29)?

In fact, in Exodus 21:7ff, God gives instructions on how a father can sell his own daughter into slavery. If I followed this Biblical teaching, would you want to be friends with me? Would you let your children come over to my house to play with my children (the remaining children that I hadn't sold into slavery)?

The best-selling book in history ... authored by the creator of the universe ... and it never condemns pedophilia, child abuse, animal abuse, or domestic violence. In fact, Biblegod endorses the beating of children (Proverbs 22:15). Here is God's opportunity to give us a definitive moral guide for living, to tell us not to beat up children, to tell us that men and women should have equal rights ... but he says the exact opposite. Women are second-class citizens in God's eyes. Isn't the Bible out of step with (a) modern times and (b) common-sense morality ... you know, the kind that comes instinctively to a five-year-old?

And while the Infinite All-Knowing Mind of God was dispensing wisdom ... couldn't he have told those guys back in 950 BCE some really useful stuff? Like what causes tooth decay? How about the germ theory of disease? Maybe a warning about cholesterol? Some rudimentary instructions on the manufacture of penicillin? Couldn't he have told them that the earth revolves around the sun ... that it's not flat? Maybe some clear guidance about abortion ... when (if ever) is it okay? When is it NOT okay? What's the age of consent for sexual activity? What are the exceptions to the hearsay rule?

28. And are you aware that not only does the Bible NOT condemn slavery, it specifically allows it — even giving rules on how to buy slaves, and how they should be treated? See Leviticus 25:44, Exodus 21:2, and Ephesians 6:5. Would you vote for a President who stated publicly that he agrees with this clear, unequivocal doctrine of the Bible (i.e., the acceptability of slavery)?

29. James 2:20 says that faith without works is DEAD. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are SAVED by faith without works. Which do you believe? Is FWOW dead, or does it save us?

And by the way ... can one be saved by works without faith? The Bible clearly says that one can (Ezekiel 18:21-22) ... and clearly says that one can't (Ephesians 2:8-9). Which do you believe?

30. James 2:21 says that Abraham was righteous because of his works; Genesis 15:6 says that Abraham was righteous because he believed God. Which do you think is true? Was Abraham righteous because of works, or faith?

31. We know for a fact that Lot was a righteous man, because the Bible says so (II Peter 2:7). We also know for a fact that Lot got drunk, fucked his own daughters (Genesis 19:31ff), and got them both pregnant. If I did this to my daughters, would you tell people that I was a righteous man?

What if I ate rabbit meat (Deuteronomy 14:7)? We know damn well that's a sin !!!

32. Have you ever prayed to your God and not gotten what you asked for? Have you ever prayed to your God and asked for something worthwhile (such as healing for a sick relative), but still didn't get what you asked for? Are you aware that the Bible says this is evidence of your lack of faith (Matthew 7:7-8, 21:22)? Why haven't you ever asked your all-powerful God to eradicate cancer or AIDS? Do you think he'd do it? Why haven't you asked him to stop the genocide in Darfur? Or to strike George Bush dead?

33. II Thessalonians 2:11-12 says that God sends a powerful delusion to certain people, causing them to believe a lie, so that they will be condemned (i.e., spend eternity suffering in hell). Isn't this type of activity, which God admits to in his own book, immoral? Isn't this what Christians accuse Satan (the father of lies — John 8:44) of doing? If you were God, would you cause people to believe a lie? Why?

34. Do you believe that prayer should be allowed in public schools? Are you aware that Jesus himself specifically commanded people not to pray in public (Matthew 6:5-6)?



Christian Beliefs

10. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods of other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9. You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created out of dirt.

8. You laugh at polytheists, but have no trouble believing in a three-in-one God.

7. You're outraged when you hear about terroristic acts committed by Moslem extremists, but you don't even flinch when God slaughters all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and orders the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua."

6. You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek myths about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life, and ascended into the sky.

5. You are willing to spend your life looking for loopholes in the scientifically-established age of Earth (a few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents who guessed that the Earth is a few thousand years old.

4. You believe the entire population of this planet, with the exception of those that share your beliefs, will spend eternity in a hell of infinite suffering, and yet you tell people that your religion (1) is the only true religion and (2) is "tolerant" and "loving."

3. While modern science, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you of anything, some idiot rolling around on the floor and "speaking in tongues" is evidence of the validity of Christianity.

2. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers, and you tell us that the 99.99% failure rate was simply the will of God.

1. You actually know a lot less than a Pagan does about the Bible, Christianity, and church history ... but you still call yourself a Christian.



35. Are you aware that the Bible unequivocally commands — twice — that women are not allowed to speak in church? Has your pastor ever preached a sermon on this obviously important Scriptural principle? Does the pastor of your church enforce this commandment? Are there any other areas in which you (and the members of your church) are openly rebelling against the Lord? If you are a female, are you ready to repent of your sin of speaking in church?

If you were the pastor of a church, and it was Sunday morning, and you caught a woman in your church violating this commandment, how would you handle it? What would you say to her?

By the way, Christians are famous for engaging in the most amazing, dishonest acrobatics/contortions of logic in trying to avoid the clear, plain, obvious meaning of the "women-have-to-shut-up-in-church" verses (and other verses that show that the author of the Bible is really some male chauvinist non-deity like Moses). The "standard" apologetics are: (a) not meant for modern times; (b) there are other verses that indicate that women taught and/or were actually apostles in the early church; (c) you're taking it out of context. Some of the greatest entertainment in the world is watching Christians do furious backflips trying to explain these embarrassing "non-PC" Bible passages.

36. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 states that anyone who preaches a God other than your God should be put to death. PLEASE tell me that you disagree with your God on this point.

And if you agree with our Heavenly Father about Deuteronomy 13:1-5, please send me an email so that I can give you the names and addresses of some people that your God definitely wants you to kill. And let me know if you need to borrow a gun (and specify the caliber, please. Currently available are a .38 revolver and a nice bolt-action .30-'06 with a scope. And a 16-gauge shotgun).

And since we're already in the 13th chapter of Deuteronomy, let's keep on reading.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 orders an ancient Israelite to rat out his brother — his daughter — his wife — his friend — if one of them advocates worshipping another god. If you were an ancient Israelite, and your eight-year-old son casually suggested following a different religion (don't tell me this thought hasn't occurred to YOU once or twice), would you turn him in to the authorities, knowing that he would be sentenced to death? Is God starting to remind you of Adolf Hitler? Are you starting to notice that your Holy Bible contains a large number of "death orders?"

37. The Bible tells us that the Israelites wandered in the Sinai desert for 40 years, and that most of them died there (Numbers 14:20-24). Using the census numbers from Exodus and Numbers, that means that approximately two million people died in 40 years in a relatively small area (and we know where it is). Are you aware that there is absolutely no archaeological evidence of those people having been in this part of the world? How do you explain this?

38. The Bible promises that God will meet ALL your needs (Philippians 4:19). Do you carry insurance? Why do you think you need it? Don't you believe what the Bible says? Is a promise from God not good enough for you?

39. Do you believe in evolution? Are you aware that the DNA of a bonobo (a primate) is 98.4% identical to yours (hell, in some states, that's high enough to establish paternity)? If God created everything, why do you think he created you almost exactly like a hairy jungle primate? Are you aware that your skeletal system is pretty much identical to that of a bird, or a dog, or a cat, or a rat — an arm that has a radius and an ulna; carpal and metacarpal bones; a scapula; ribs; a sternum; a pelvis; tibia and fibula bones in the legs; the whole framework covered by a system of muscles and skin tissues; bilateral symmetry; a blood/circulatory system that's powered by a heart? Is your God simply lacking in imagination, that he created most of the warm-blooded animals using exactly the same basic design? Or is there perhaps the tiniest possibility that we all evolved from a lower life form?

40. John 7:38 quotes Jesus as saying, "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." In 31 AD, the Scripture (being the Old Testament only ... the New Testament hadn't been written, of course) said no such thing. What exactly was Jesus talking about?

And did you know that Jesus contradicted himself ... in two statements that are recorded in the same book of the Bible?


(1) "Jesus answered and said unto them, though I bear record (marturw) of myself, yet my record (marturia) IS TRUE." (John 8:14)

marturw means "bear witness" (NAS) or "testify" (NIV, NRSV), and it's the same word used in John 5:31, where Jesus says,

(2) "If I bear witness (marturw) of myself, my witness (marturia) IS NOT TRUE."

So tell me, based on the statements of Jesus himself ... if he bears witness of himself, is it true, or not true?

41. Genesis 5:27 says that Methuselah lived 969 years. Honestly now ... do you believe this? What do you think his family gave him for his 762nd birthday? Surely he had enough neckties and cologne.


42. In Numbers 31:1-18, God commanded the Israelites to kill the Midianites — all except the female virgins, whom the Israelites were to "save for themselves." If your son were in the Army, and he murdered defenseless civilians, but spared the women so that he and his friends could gang-rape them, what would you think of him? Would it make you proud? Would you brag about him to your friends at church? "Yep, Jeff is a good boy ... killed lots of Iraqi civilians, and then raped some Iraqi girls ... wanna see the pictures he sent us?"

Interestingly enough, the Israelites weren't even at war with the Midianites at the time (and hadn't been at any time in the past) — they were just living in Midian as guests.



43. II Samuel 12:15-20 tells the story of God killing an infant because it was the product of its parents' adultery. If you were God, would you do such a thing? Please (a) explain to me the justification for this infanticide and (b) tell me what this incident reveals about the true character of Biblegod.

And please give me a list of all sins which justify the killing of a newborn baby (not including someone else's sin of adultery, which we already know about).

And please tell me where the baby went after God killed him. Heaven or hell? If your answer is "heaven," please give me some scriptural backup (chapter and verse, please) for the proposition that innocent babies/infants/children automatically go to heaven (no requirement for the fall-on-your-face repentance and Faith in the Substitutionary Death of Jesus).

By the way, if you contend that a two-month-old infant who dies will go to heaven ... does he remain an infant? Just crying and crawling, for all eternity? Or does he "grow up?" And please back up your answer with scripture.

Also ... if a mentally retarded person dies and goes to heaven, does he remain mentally retarded for all eternity? Or does God smarten him up, so that he won't make the other Christians uncomfortable? Again, please show me scriptural authority for your answer.

And what language do they speak up in heaven? Surely you don't believe that all Christians speak English. How would you communicate with a Navajo Christian who was born in 1798 and died in 1830, and never learned a single word of English?

44. II Samuel 24:1 says that the Lord incited David to take a census of Israel; I Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David to take a census of Israel. Which do you believe?

And if your explanation is that it was a "scrivener's error," explain to me why the Almighty Omnipotent Creator of the Universe is powerless to prevent copiers' errors. Also, explain to me how any scrivener could be so inept that he accidentally wrote "Satan" instead of "God" (or vice versa). A "slip of the quill?"

45. In Genesis 1:26, when God said, "Let us make man in our image," whom was he talking to? The animals? The plants? It couldn't have been a human, because humans didn't exist yet. There's only one God, so he couldn't have been talking to some other god.

Or could he? Are you aware that the word in Genesis 1:1 that's translated "God" — אלהים — is PLURAL?

46. Genesis 10:5 says that at that particular point in history, different peoples had different languages; Genesis 11:1, just a few verses down, says that there was only one language in the world. Which do you believe?

47. According to your God, if a girl gets married and it turns out she wasn't a virgin, she deserves the death penalty (Deuteronomy 22:13-21) ... but the same rule doesn't apply to males. Why does God discriminate against females?


Let's imagine that a man (not God) wrote the Bible — no divine inspiration or "supreme wisdom" whatsoever. Let's say it was an ordinary man (or several men) who lived in a primitive pre-technological patriarchal society a few thousand years ago. What kind of book would we expect?


Let's see ... it would reflect the attitudes of that period in that women would be property, just like cattle ... rape would be okay, at least in the context of "the spoils of war" ... violence would be a casual thing, and the beating of children would be permissible ... God would, of course, be a male ... the adultery laws and virginity requirements would apply only to women ... there wouldn't be any scientific revelation in it at all, since it would merely be a product of its (primitive) time ... old age would be revered, and there would be tall tales about people living to be hundreds of years old (all of them men, of course) ... children would have no rights whatsoever ... there would be no tolerance of other cultures, and when another nation was conquered, its inhabitants would be slaughtered like animals (an exception, I suppose, to the "Thou shalt not kill" rule) or enslaved ... and following another religion would be strictly prohibited (no competition allowed). Is this beginning to sound familiar?

48. All throughout the Bible, it seems that God's solution to every problem involves death and blood. He can't even forgive sin unless there's blood dripping somewhere (Hebrews 9:22). Wouldn't you expect the creator of the universe (the guy who invented positrons, quarks, and neutrinos, and put nipples on men) to have a little more imagination than this?

By the way, are YOU able to forgive sin without somebody (or some animal) bleeding? Doesn't this indicate that you're morally superior to Biblegod?

49. God couldn't forgive your sin without an innocent person (Jesus) suffering. What does it say about the character of your God that he insists on torturing his own son to appease himself? What horrible thing would I have to do to you that you would demand the hideous torture-death of your own son ... that is, nothing else would satisfy you ... you'd insist on your own child being hung on a wooden cross by nails driven into his little hands and feet? And what would this say about you as a person? And how would it constitute evidence that you were "too holy to allow sin into your presence?"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I understand what FORGIVENESS is:

Let's say that Joe owes me a debt ... either because I loaned money to him, or because he dropped a brick on my foot. Let's say it's $1,000.00.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Scenario #1:

Joe promises to pay me on January 12. He works an extra job, sets aside a little bit each week, and on January 12 he brings me the $1,000.00. I am paid. I received my $1,000.00.

No more debt. I've been paid.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Scenario #2:

Joe promises to pay me on January 12. He can't come up with the money on his own. He goes to a friend and says, "I need $1,000.00 to pay Pendragon." The friend gives him the money. Joe gives it to me on January 12. I am paid. I received my $1,000.00.

No more debt. I've been paid.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Scenario #3:

Joe promises to pay me on January 12. January 12 comes and goes, and Joe doesn't show up. No phone call, no email, no letter, no carrier pigeon.

I think about it, and decide, "Well, let's just forget about it. I forgive him. I hereby cancel Joe's debt."

I was supposed to receive $1,000.00. I was entitled to receive $1,000.00. I ended up receiving nothing. But I've decided that's okay with me. I haven't been paid, but ...

No more debt ... because I forgave the debt.


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Now if God (Biblegod) were truly a forgiving god, as the Christians claim he is, he would do a Scenario #3 as far as my "sins" are concerned. But he doesn't. What he does is Scenario #2. He's such a hateful, vengeful, unforgiving, spiteful bastard that he demands that his own son die a horrible, bloody death. He demands that Jesus stretch out his hands so they can be nailed to a wooden cross.

He demands payment of the debt! He doesn't FORGIVE a goddam thing.

A forgiving God would look down at me here on earth ... he'd see me drinking, swearing, blaspheming, and cheating on my taxes, and he'd say, "I forgive him.