Ming the Mechanic:

The NewsLog of Flemming Funch
 Consciousness2004-01-11 07:42
picture by Flemming Funch

There are quite divided opinions about what consciousness is and where it comes from. Arguments mostly arrive from quite divided assumptions about what the Universe is and where it comes from. One way I would simplify the views would be as follows.

You could assume that there's an external entity, which you can call God or something else, which intervenes in order to make things happen inside the universe. So that if something new happens, it is because God decided it was a good idea and introduced it.

You could also assume that the universe is a closed system. I.e. what is there is what is there, and when it evolves into new things it is because it is in its nature to do so. If hydrogen and oxygen turn into water, even the first time it happens, it is only because they have the emergent property to do so.

In my own somewhat controversial view of all this, I think there are many people who are confused about which camp they're in, or who really assume something different than what they think they do.

Let's look at consciousness. It is observable that there are entities here who have awareness, consciousness, the ability to think about things, including self-reflexively and abstractly. According to the first view, it would be because God suddenly one day said "Hey, I now decree that this mud henceforth will be conscious". According to the second view it would be because it would be perfectly logical, that the component parts merely evolved such a capability, based on the way they're put together, based on their pre-existing properties, and based on a natural sequence of events.

But many people who believe the latter will also try to deny that the consciousness is in fact an emergent property. If I say it a little differently: consciousness can only emerge if it has been there all along. Just like hydrogen and oxygen only can turn into water because they've been able to do that all along. If we use a controversial word for it, their design includes the capability to transform in such a manner.

Water can only happen because the universe possesses a water-ness. If you believe that such a capability suddenly happened and wasn't there before, you're a subscriber to the first worldview above, that there's an external agent who shows up and makes it happen.

Likewise, the universe can only manifest consciousness if it already possesses the capability for consciousness. Consciousness can only emerge if it all along has been an integral quality of the universe. We can discuss whether it was a latent quality or a continuously expressed quality, but it has to have been there, unless it suddenly came from the outside.

If the universe is a closed system, it of course gives some major problems of trying to explain where that came from. Even if we accept that there's no outside interference, but everything in the universe is just doing what is its nature to do, over billions of years, and that happens to have lead to human consciousness and MTV and the Internet and other interesting things, you can not avoid coming up with an answer to where such a brilliant evolutionary engine came from in the first place. If we assumed that the Universe actually evolved from a Big Bang 12 billion years ago, and everything that happened emerged naturally from the qualities inherent in whatever it was that exploded, it still does absolutely nothing in explaining how that something happened to be so exquisitely designed that extremely complex lifeforms would develop which would be self-aware and capable of developing advanced technology. Despite that it supposedly is a natural law that physical matter does the opposite, moving towards increased entropy.

The explanation that most often is used to avoid admitting that the universe possesses inherent intelligence is to invoke Randomity. I.e. to show how random events will carry along evolution. There are some big problems with that, however. What is called "random" usually just means that it is too hard to calculate which exact interactions between what produced what, and it is never just simple cause-effect relationships when one gets down to it. Some people think that Quantum Mechanics show that the universe is basically random. But it really just talks about uncertainty. Because you basically have to include all sub-atomic particles existing in 12 or so dimensions, in a possibly infinite number of parallel universes, in order to calculate what exactly will happen. Which is rather impractical at this point, so the actual outcomes of events, particularly very small ones, are for our purposes uncertain. To our limited view they seem "random" because we're incapable of understanding the whole system at one time at this point.

"Randomness" as such is essentially a variation of the external "God" in the first worldview at the top. I.e. believing in "randomness" influencing the universe in arbitrary ways has much of the same structure as believing in "God" influencing the universe in arbitrary ways. The difference is only in the labels people attach to it and to themselves. E.g. whether one thinks one's view is based on science or religion. Either way, we're in the field of religion if your model requires miraculous outside influences in order to hold together.

Ultimately the better model is probably some kind of synthesis. It isn't ultimately satisfying to just delegate the hard problems to some magical entity you can never understand, or to just deny that they even exist. Assuming that the Universal Intelligence is either entirely outside the universe, or that it doesn't exist at all - both fail to explain a lot of what we can experience here, and either one produces pretty depressing prospects for the future.

The more simple answer, to me at least, is that there's an infinite Omniverse there, and you're an integral part of it. It has the inherent capability to do everything that ever happened and ever will happen, and the scope of what can happen is infinite. Some of the inherent qualities are self-reflexive consciousness and the ability to evolve. It is vast, complex and mysterious, but ultimately completely logical and coherent. You can learn about it and understand it as deeply as you want, and it will readily divulge its secrets, but everything in it is connected with everything else, and all of it is continously evolving, so you'll probably never be done. And that's what makes it an infinitely continuing and expanding game.

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11 Jan 2004 @ 07:51 by swanny : Article: Measuring Consciousness
Identification and calibration of the hidden attractor fields of consciousness: a qualitative and quantitative analysis

D.R. Hawkins (The Institute for Theoretical Research, HC2 Box 817, Sedona, AZ 86336, USA.)

At the 1994 Conference the question was asked whether it was possible to measure consciousness (1). The answer is definitely `yes'. Although that which is the substrate of all life and process is itself formless, its fields of hierarchical levels of power can be calibrated and identified. The non-locality of quantum reality equates in terms of chaos theory to a phase space of infinite potential which corresponds with Bohm's implicate universe and which is defined in this study as consciousness itself. Within the formless infinite potential field of consciousness (Cs) prior to its expression in form as the explicit universe is an operant transition condition. Stratified attractor fields of energy of progressive power become identifiable and constitute an effective field which sets parameters of perception and therefore the capacity for awareness and comprehension. These non-linear attractor fields were calibrated on a nominal logarithmic scale of relative power from 1 (existence) to 1000 (highest possible for a human) by use of the kinesiologic testing method. The scaled hierarchical levels encompass all possibilities within the human domain and create a comprehensive map of Cs which recontextualizes the human experience throughout time. Although it has been in widespread use clinically for over 25 years the reliability of the kinesiologic test response was reconfirmed by a validation study in which 4,594 subjects were tested under varying conditions and localities. The binary response of the technique allowed for an X2 analysis of the data (table display, P < .001). Each identifiable level was found to correlate with a characteristic human constellation of thoughts, attitudes, beliefs, activities, and an identifiable perceptual set. (P  

11 Jan 2004 @ 08:04 by jstarrs : And here's another angle...
...maybe science and spirituality WILL converge if we there's the will to do so.
from Kalu Rinpoche (http://www.iol.ie/~taeger/mahamud/mahamud.html).
By the way, I don' wish to push my buddhist views on anyone - just sharing.

"Foundation Mahamudra implies a deep appreciation and understanding of the nature of mind. When we say that this is the correct view, we do not use the phrase in a casual sense. Very often, we say, "Well, in my view, such and such is the case," but this does not necessarily mean that we have understood it at all. We may say, "I believe in previous existences," or, "I don't believe in future existences," but very often our talk is not based on experience and appreciation, but merely on an idea to which we give lip service. What is meant in foundation Mahamudra is a thorough appreciation of the nature of mind itself, the mind with which we are working, and the mind which we are attempting to discover.

To get a deeper understanding of the nature of mind itself, we can quotes the authority of enlightened masters of the lineage as a guide. The third Karmapa, Rangjung Dorje), wrote a prayer of aspiration for the realization of Mahamudra in which he said, "It is not existent because even the Buddha could not see it, but it is not nonexistent because it is the basis or origin of all samsara.(6).and nirvana.(7)." It does not constitute a contradiction to say that mind neither exists nor does not exist; it is simultaneously existent and nonexistent.

Let us consider the first part of the statement that the mind does not exist. We take into account that the mind is intangible. One cannot desscribe it or find it. There is no fixed characteristic that we normally ascribe to things which we can ascribe to mind. Consciousness does not manifest with any particular color, shape, size, form or location. None of these qualities has anything to do with the nature of mind, so we can say that the mind is essentially empty of these limiting characteristics.

Even the fully enlightend Buddha Shakyamuni.(8).could not find any thing that is mind, because the mind does not have identifying characteristics, This is what Rangjung Dorje meant when he said, "It does not exist because even the Buddha could not see it."

So, then, is mind nonexistant? No, not in the sense that there is nothing happening. That which experiences confusion, suffering, frustration and all the complexity of samsaric existance is mind itself. This is the origin of all unenlightened experience; it is within the mind that all unenlightened experience happens.

On the other hand, if the individual attains enlightenment, it is mind which is the origin of the enlightened experience, giving expression to the transcending awareness of the various kayas.(9).

This is what Rangjung Dorje meant when he said, "One cannot say that is does not exist, because it is the basis for all samsara and nirvana." Wether we are talking about an enlightened state of being or an unenlightened one, we are speaking about the state of experience that arises from mind and is experienced by the mind. What remains if mind neither exists nor does not exist? According to Rangjung Dorje, this is not a contradiction, but a state of simultaneity. Mind exhibits, at one and the same time, qualities of nonexistance and qualities of existance. To state naively that mind exists is to fall into one error; to deny the existance of anything at all is to fall into another error. This gave rise to the concept of what is called the Middle Way or Madhyamika. Finding a balance between those two beliefs, where there is simultaneous truth to both, is the correct view, according to the Buddha's description of the nature of mind.  

11 Jan 2004 @ 08:15 by swanny : Probalism
Probability connections between perceptions of consciousness change that which is perceived or experienced. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle shows that we cannot observe without changing that which we observe. Whatever we become aware of, we change by becoming aware. Subjective and objective reality create each other; they are self-excited systems and are brought into being by self-reference -- the participator creates the universe. When more than one outcome of Schrodinger's equation occurs, some triggering mechanism in consciousness must decide which outcome to experience. The determining factor for an individual quantum jump is associated with the volition of the participator.

In the brain, microtubules a ten-millionth of an inch thick run throughout nerve cells to form meshlike networks. In the microtubules, vibrations propagate unchanged throughout the length of the hollow water-filled interior. Nearby microtubules vibrate in sympathy. A pulse traveling through the tube is isolated from surrounding "noise" and is thus in a quantum state, free to choose any pattern of thought. Microtubules are built of tubulin proteins, each of which has a slot in which an electron can move to and fro. The electron's position determines the microtubule's configuration and function.
An electron tends to exist in a multitude of states all at once; it is simultaneously here and there, spinning one way and the other. At the moment the electron interacts with another force, such as a quantum of light, the disturbance causes the electron to choose a single state. The brain processes information through the pattern of electrical impulses that the brain's neurons, swap with one another. These signals start off in a quantum mishmash of states that allows the simultaneous existence of countless billions of different patterns; out of this quantum mix, one pattern emerges that becomes a conscious thought.
When the brain is deprived of external stimuli, it produces internal realities in cognitional multidimensional projection spaces. Since we have only about 100 million sensory receptors, but 10 trillion synapses in the nervous system, consciousness is about 100,000 times more receptive or sensitive to changes in its internal environments. Not only are the universes inside our heads equal to the physical universe in terms of the neurophysiological processes involved, but the internal environments may be just as real in their effects on consciousness.
The original "particles" of consciousness, called proto-particles, are highly energetic and avoid taking on the particular properties of consciousness. At lower energies, however, the proto-particle suddenly acquires fixed properties of one of the ordinary particles and takes on the qualities of the four elements; this is a rupture of the original state of 'universal' consciousness. Turning ordinary particles back into proto-particles creates the possibility of regeneration.  

11 Jan 2004 @ 08:26 by ming : David Hawkins
I've read Hawkins' book "Power vs. Force: The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior", and I think it is great. But I'm not sure it really will convince anybody who's a skeptic on that kind of thing. I.e. muscle testing to measure matters of consciousness and the objective truth of statements. I have no doubt that kinesiological testing is thoroughly tested, and I personally find it very useful, but I'm not sure if it has been "proven" to the satifaction of scientists in general, as it is one of those things that are easily ruled out as "impossible" in advance, and they would tend to arrange experiments such as to exclude just the factors that are essential to their success. But, well, sooner or later ...  

11 Jan 2004 @ 08:47 by Emile @ : Skeptic
I'm a skeptic on that kind of thing and yes I admit it looks suspicious, especially "The non-locality of quantum reality equates in terms of chaos theory to a phase space of infinite potential which corresponds with Bohm's implicate universe and which is defined in this study as consciousness itself" ... using so many words like "chaos theory" and "quantum reality" lights up a few flashing red lights in my head, especially since I can't pull out any general meaning. SO I'll adress the question from my probably "mainstream" science point of view ...

I don't think consciousness can be observed from the exterior, it's something extremely sbjective, and hard to define - only definable by "what I feel now" - we can guess other humans also have consciousness, but for other forms of life, it can be a pretty tough question, unless you decide that by definition everything has consciousness. Does an ant have consciousness ? An anthill ? A tree ? A bacteria ? A computer ? A rock ? A crescent wrench ? A coke machine ? I don't think it's even meaningfull to try to answer ...

I'd say "Intelligce" is maybe a better word, a bit less ambiguous. Or adaptabiliy, or even life. Or just complex "intersting" behaviour, as manifested by the game of life. Is complex interesting behaviour present in the universe from the beginning ? I'd say no present but implicit, by the laws of nature that allow it to arise (As the laws of the game of life allow it to arise where it wouldn't with even slightly different laws).

I don;t think quantum theory has aything to do whith it (especially sine there are probably about a few dozen people in the world who understand modern quantum mechanics research). It's about emergent behaviour, maybe chaos theory. Such interesting behaviour is manifested in out brains, but also in bacteria-levil chemistry, in social insect interaction, at the wider ecological level ... so many levels where something akin to intelligence is happening ... in that sense, yes I'd say consciousness is everywhere. Amazing stuff is everywhere.  

11 Jan 2004 @ 10:03 by ming : Origins of Intelligence
One way of explaining the apparent inherent intelligence in the universe is to speculate that maybe a previous advanced intelligence designed a super-massive black hole with certain properties that resulted in the Big Bang, which then inevitably evolved into the emergence of intelligent races in the universe, quite possibly bringing back the same kind of intelligence that set it off in the first place, and who themselves inevitably will develop technology that will repeat the cycle. It could conceivably be a design meant for perpetuating evolving intellence forever. Even scientists without any kind of spiritual leanings should be able to entertain such an idea. Of course it still doesn't explain how the intelligence came about in the first place. But existence is full of intriguing possibilities.  

11 Jan 2004 @ 10:28 by jstarrs : What about harbouring...
...the idea that some things may be 'beginningless' instead of always looking for 'a first place'?  

11 Jan 2004 @ 10:31 by Emile @ : Black hole ...
If you want a black hole you need a universe roughtly like ours, so it'll have a big bang too :)

I like the cycle comcept, but I'm not sure that black holes are necessary for it. I'm not sure that "matter" is that important in the question of intelligence. In a sense, we already do a bit of what that hypothetical intelligence does : I consider a simulation of the game of life a pretty good approximation of creating a universe. I believe "emergence: is something rare, but that can occur "naturally", i.e. it soesn't require to be designed. Of course, it's tough to get it just from rocks and stuff, but once it gets rolling, it doesn't stop.

In fact I see no problem in the concept of the universe creating itself - thos weird exrra-universe aliens being *us* recreating our own universe. No problem with recursive universes, time is inside the universes anyway (With the game of life you can build a universal Turing machine, on a Universal Turing machine you can run the game of life - that's the idea, you can have the game of life simulating itself at a much higher level.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you ran a certain configuration of the game of life for a few millenia and ended up with our own universe (coded in 2d black and white cells, but still ...)  

11 Jan 2004 @ 11:35 by bushman : Hmm.
How does a neuron work? How does a synaps jump the gap? You have brain cells that arnt physicly touching, yet some form of energy has to jump that gap, a partical thats is encoded, with info, a neuron end that attracts the partical and converts it to energy to be transmited to another neuron. To me a a neuron would be the same as a black hole. Like the brain mapping MRI, sees activity in the brain, our telescopes and sencors read the activity in our universe. Id say the universe is concious, and has thought or is the thought itself. Solid matter is a product of thought, the energy stored in it, is it's conciousness. A rock knows it's a rock because we can look at it and say it's a rock, or we use thought and turn that rock into a brick that becomes a wall and so on. We know all sorts of mater is sucked into black holes, and then certine aspects of the converted mater, are jeted off into space again. This energy has to be powering something, and could be regaurded as god thinking, maybe, transmiting a thought. I was thinking the other day, what would happen if our solar system got sucked into a black hole, knowing that our solar system is housed in it's own magneticfield, we have like a skin. So as we know, if a person was to jump into a black hole he'd be spageti after the trip thru, but something the size of a solarsystem might just compress, and shrink, like a gas bubble in a caped soda bottle, we might not even notice the event, till we where moving at the speed of light. I had read somewhere that our solar system has heated up a bit, things heat up when they get compressed. Then theres the story of the quick frozen mamoths with food still in thier mouths, when you decompress something real fast, it condences and gets real cold. Also I read that the expantion of our universe is speeding up, but it would look that way if we where getting compressed into our galixies central core or black hole. As well our solar system rides above the disc of our galixy a bit, basicly out of the plane of mater, sort of rideing the surface of it. So if and when we do get sucked up by our black hole we wont be in the hot space of the event horizon and could go in unscathed. As to stars falling from heaven, and rolling up like a scrool, and to a new heaven and earth, fits pretty good to a visual represtntation of an event of being sucked into a black hole. :}  

11 Jan 2004 @ 17:41 by Natalie @ : Consciousness
Ming, your analysis was lucid and objective and blessedly free from jargon.
My two cents:
I have no problem in visualising God as Consciousness and ourselves, as well as everything else in the universe, as mini-consciousness, or manifestations of the Big C. This doesn't negate either the scientific view or various religious/spiritual views: it includes them. The fact that there is order as well as chaos in nature is reflected in the way our own consciousness operates - we think in both orderly and chaotic ways and the products of our thinking (all man-made things/ ideas) can be orderly and/or chaotic. I can imagine an Intelligence that is like ours but magnified a zillionfold and operating according to a non-egocentric principle we can only dimly perceive and experience in extremely diluted form as "love". This isn't to reduce everything to a sentimental, Disney-view. On the cosmic scale, Consciousness and love could be the same thing, a form of energy. The standard reaction to this kind of statement is: "If God is love, how come he/she/it allows...." followed by a list of the terrible suffering inflicted on the innocent in this unjust world. My answer is rather pragmatic: if torrential rain causes a river to burst its banks, do you call the rain evil? Or: if God/Consciousness/Love is the energy that shapes and drives the universe, why not assume that it also follows a process of evolution which is not necessarily concluded? And that what we perceive as unjust suffering is something akin to growing pains,on the cosmic scale.  

11 Jan 2004 @ 20:23 by spells : The Essence of Consciousness
This is a very interesting discussion. I ask only that you consider that what you are 'theorizing" about is what IS your true essence, therefore one can be that essence and experience firsthand instead of just theorising. Through meditation such things can be 'realized"....I offer the following:

The Essence of Consciousness

Behind every thought is a Watcher and Mover which directs it’s course.

The Watcher is awareness and intent is the Mover.

Energy is the thing moved.

When Intent and Awareness are focused together, manifestation occurs via the Energy that is moved.

When awareness is focused upon itself, particularly in the third eye, The Watcher is then made aware of itself, producing what is known as “awareness of awareness”. This is awareness that has focused on itself to such an extent that it begins recycling. Awareness that looks into itself refines itself in that looking, and thus, clarity arises.

When intent is focused upon itself, especially throughout the body, it then begins to fashion itself according to desire. This is the hand which raises the hand which raises once again it’s ability to raise itself, upward as a spiral of self-feedback manifestation. Not unlike awareness of awareness, a recycling loop of intent is bound back upon itself, so as to fashions That Which Moves. This is known as “The Moving of the Mover” within. Not only do we become the subject of our own intent, but that the intent we hold is the raising of the level of intent within.

As souls, we are a field of shifting energy, held and shaped cohesively by awareness, and at the direction of intent. Our most visable aspect of consciouness, even at the level of the body, is energy. How we direct our awareness determines how that energy will be used. The manner in which awareness directs energy, or in other words, toward what end, is governed by intent. Intent is there the innermost and fundamental aspect of self, (soul) which exists.

As energy fields at large, group minds, thoughtforms and other are of effect types of manifestations, are likewise composed of energy, awareness and intent. In this case, the “body” of intent is much larger in scope than our own physical bodies, yet governed by the very same principles of organization that the personal level of existence is. Just as we can refine our awareness upon itself to gain greater personal clarity, so too can field-wide awareness elements recycle upon themselves so as to maintain a type of SYSTEMIC clarity that has wise-spread effects. The Master of consciousness can, for instance, not only raise the intent/feeling elements in our own bodies, they can also raise the intent/feeling elements at large. This area may be ten feet in diameter, of 100 miles in diameter, depending on the purity and intent level used to manifest it.

A group of ten people in the same room with the same general feelings and intention, aligned in common focus is known as a “group mind”. A group mind is none other than the coordination of different intent elements into a cohesive and functioning whole, much like the instantaneous creation of a new life form. This is so because group minds can act autonomously, as a whole, beyond the knowledge of those constituents which make it up. This is a form of “group manifestation” and examples of such area of effects are football stadiums during a heated sports event, church prayer meetings and tribal dances.  

11 Jan 2004 @ 22:08 by swanny : wow again
spells you do have a way with words....

perhaps in some ways then it is "ALL" consciousness

a sea of consciousness in which we learn to learn and swim


11 Jan 2004 @ 22:25 by spells : Thanks, but...
Thanks Swanny, but actually these aren't my words, but I have meditated and seen the Truth of them and realized them also. Through meditation we have all knowledge within us.  

11 Jan 2004 @ 23:02 by craiglang : Quantum Consciousness Links
There are a some good links to tbe {www.consciousness.arizona.edu|University of Arizona Consciousness Studies Department}. Look at some of the work of {http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/hameroff/|Stuart Hameroff}, on the Microtubule model. He builds an interesting case for these being a possible quantum substrate for consciousness.

I took a pretty kewl web course from them back in 1999/2000 on this entitled "{http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/quantum/index.html|Consciousness at the Millenium}".
One e-lecture ({http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/quantum/qm20.htm|Lecture 10}) was on showing that consciousness did indeed, show nonlocal properties. It was quite hotly debated whether it actually is a quantum phenomenon, or whether "quantum" is simply a metaphor for the conscious process. But that particular article did show that thought and cognition followed some of the mathematics of nonlocality, specifically that it meets the Bell-Inequality criterion.

Regardless of your opinion, the webcourse makes some great reading... :-)  

12 Jan 2004 @ 09:29 by craiglang : More Universal Consciousness Stuff.. :-)
I recently got through re-reading the book "{http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415289793/qid=1073924683/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-2835797-2797434|Wholeness and the Implicate Order}" by David Bohm - a fascinating read which gives a really kewl perspective on the universe. I also recently re-read the article "{http://www.nidsci.org/articles/mitchell_hologram.html|Nature's Mind: The Quantum Hologram}" by Edgar Mitchell. He builds an interesting case for non-locality being necessary for the mind to consciously percieve the external world. Mitchell also talks about thin in "{http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0399141618/qid=1073924722/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2835797-2797434?v=glance&s=books|The Way of the Explorer}". Also read "{http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060922583/qid=1073924620/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-2835797-2797434?v=glance&s=books|Holographic Universe}" by Michael Talbot

In at least one aspect, the case seems to be building for the zero-point field being the medium in which universal-nonlocality occurs - the medium of the quantum hologram and/or the implicate order. And in that sense, it could therefore be the medium in which the universal consciousness exists. Heavy stuff for a Monday morning... :-)  

12 Jan 2004 @ 11:28 by Paul Hughes @ : The Eternal Now
Here are snippets of some ramblings I wrote a couple of years back (apologies for the length):

I have been engaging in some discussion lately about the beginning of the universe, and I pushed the 'Where did it come from' question through as far as it can go. And, not surprisingly, it doesn't go anywhere. No matter how you try to explain the origin of the universe, none of the theories can account for the cause of it. What caused the big bang? Where did 'God' come from? etc.

From this, I concluded that there cannot be a Beginning. If there was a beginning, then something must have caused that beginning, and so something was there before the beginning.

This doesn't answer anything, but I am yet to see another way around the causality problem (defining something as 'acausal' doesn't solve it, it just
dodges it).

Now, linked to this 'where did the universe come from?' problem is, 'Where did the incredible laws, which make our universe a coherent place come from?',
which is what I think underlies it all. Once the universe began, it is easy to say 'the laws guided the evolution of everything from there'....but how did the
laws come to be?

I think what this means is that any one set of properties/laws we experience are also entirely arbitrary as well. If they are not then we must ask
ourselves what meta-laws are behind it determining the types of laws are allowed and which are not? And then we have to ask ourselves where did these metalaws come from? And then meta-meta-laws and so on to infinity. And, not surprisingly, it doesn't go anywhere. No matter how you try to explain the origin of any laws, none of the theories can account for the cause of
those laws. From this, I concluded there can be no fundamental laws.

So if there are no fundamental laws, no limits, then everything is possible. If not, why not? And we are right back to an arbitrary set of laws with no

Recognizing that beyond time, which is an arbitrary property of this universe as experienced by us, everything is timeless.

Once you understand that everything is rooted in timelessness the next step is trying to grok timelessness itself. We are not talking about something that exists for an infinitely small amount of time or an infinitely large amount of time, as it is by definition timeless. Almost impossible to imagine but such distinctions are meaningless. From the perspective of most spiritual traditions and especially Vivation, the only thing that really exists is the present moment. You could say that it is both a moment and eternity all in
one. We are talking about something that is beyond time itself, so from times perspective it has always existed and always will exist – no beginning or ending - the classic definition of eternity.

So now that we have eternity, then the idea of a finite amount of existence is equally meaningless within its context. How could it be otherwise? Either
nothing exists or everything exists. To understand why this is try imagining that nothing has ever existed and nothing ever will. Therein lies the
paradox, not only do we exist in some form as we are proof of that, but nothingness has no meaning either without something to compare itself too! So since something exists, why not everything? And by everything I mean EVERYTHING, infinitely beyond that which we can imagine as everything. If only a finite amount of things exist, then it implies a finite amount of time or some kind of limit, law or principle preventing it from happening. And if such a limit exists, from where did it originate? So in summation there is
no beginning and no end, and there are no fundamental laws. EVERYTHING and NOTHING exist simultaneously and eternally. They have always existed and always will.

We should never worry about the VOID, because even if existence ceases to be, in a timeless moment, everything will exist again. Since we are talking
about the timelessness of it all, even the idea of oscillation has no meaning, but if it did, then you could say that existence is oscillating between
nothing and everything eternally. Therefore it is more accurate to say that existence and non-existence exist simultaneously as one – therein lies the

Therefore, everything has already happened, is happening, and will keep happening. Why? Because there is no beginning and no ending. Everything that is, was and forever will be. So where do we come in? Well, part of every possibility playing itself would mean there would be an endless variety of existences with arbitrary conditions of every kind being played out. The reality we currently find ourselves in this very moment is a perfect example. And since consciousness is all there is, our consciousness is the key to enlightenment, wisdom, and liberation from our current apparent arbitray set of conditions to this god consciousness where everything is possible. We are all God - god consciousness playing out every possibility that ever could be- in this case – everything.. The ego-life-identity of our current incarnation is simply part of this god-game playing out every role and variation that is and ever was. And in this we should take delight, as what we are experiencing right now is not infinitely bad, but is actually pretty good – so our ego’s should be grateful for where and when we are in this infinite sea of probability. We are the truly lucky ones who are part of the infinity that does know. Just think, by definition there is an infinite part that doesn’t. We can look around our own little planet and see the amount of consciousness that has yet to awaken to its own god nature.
Better still we are even luckier in the fact that we are part of this consciousness that is journeying from zero consciousness to infinite consciousness. After all if everything has already happened, then that would mean there is an infinite amount of consciousness that is journeying from some kind of higher consciousness to a lower consciousness. Our consciousness has already taken this route. That is why we are here. Now the best part is just beginning. Proof of this is our awakening knowledge that this is even possible – that there is an infinite amount of possible experiences above and beyond us – more joyful, loving, exciting, awe-inspiring, rich, beautiful and delightful than our imagination can conceive yet. Our knowledge of this is reasons to rejoice. We are part of that consciousness journeying forever and ever towards greater joy without end. In plainer terms, it means that from here on out, things are only going to get better and better – forever!  

12 Jan 2004 @ 14:20 by magical_melody : Good conversation here!
It has been fun reading the comments.  

13 Jan 2004 @ 12:09 by sharie : Matter and Intelligence

Intelligence manifests matter by dividing the light.

We (in our eternal essence as Intelligence) divide the light by expanding the space.

Except that there is no space... in reality... there is no boundary, no limit, no end to what is.

But we compress light to create the illusion of space...

and the illusion of matter.

I call this an *illusion* because it all fades with time.

Matter is just an *illusion* that we create.

All Matter - even the mountains - are fading into the air.

We create the illusion of matter by expanding...

and compressing...

this is the science of life, in its true essence.

When we expand the light, we compress the light.

This creates variations in the frequency of the light.

Some of you scientifically-minded should be catching on by now.

Variations in the frequency of the light, manifests variations in the compression/expansion of light, and also variations in (what seems to be) mass, weight, color (the color spectrum), texture, speed, and so on.

When we compress light, it compresses into a coil, a spiral, and...

will stay in this condition in accordance with the compression/expansion of its immediate environment.

The coiled element will expand into its immediate environment (disappearing) spiraling outward in accordance with the expansiveness of its immediate environment.

The expanded element is a noble gas... which can expand into pure light or be compressed with other noble gases to form a more dense element... depending on the compression of the light of the element.

Inherent in matter is the intelligence to be balanced - to maintain balance - so our *elements* will *bond* and manifest *chemistry*.

Some *bonds* will create a perfect balance, creating a cube - salt cubes for example - because the sodium and chloride *balance* one another.

A standard Chart of the Elements will reveal the balancing elements, if you look for them, but the chart itself is not accurate in terms of demonstrating how the elements *bond*...

the elements are coiled into a sphere and *bond* into a cube.

The Bohr theory of the atom - with its orbiting electrons, valence electrons, protons, and so on - has completely missed the demonstration set forth by the universe.

Bohr hypothesized that the laws of the universe are *universal* (which is true) and that microcosm functions similar to the macrocosm (which is true), but he inaccurately assumed that the planets orbit the sun, and he inaccurately assumed that the microscopic chemical elements therefore also have an orbital pattern.

Planets do *not* orbit the sun.

The planets have a spiraling trajectory away from the sun.

The chemical elements, likewise, have a spiraling trajectory in their life-cycle.

When you see photos of the galaxy, you see spirals and explosions...
you don't see *orbits*.

Orbits are optical illusions caused by the limitations of our perspective.

To see what is, we have to go beyond our limitations.

These limitations, illusions, and assumptions are what caused modern science to be so goofed up...

and the consequence of it is that chemists don't understand the true nature of the elements, they misunderstand the elements, and the side effect is that they are polluting our water, our air, our minds, and our bodies...

all because their view of nature is distorted.

All because Bohr theory's assumed that the planets and elements *orbit*.

The planets do not orbit.

Modern science has completely misunderstood our natural environment, our chemical elements, and how they function.


to leave science fiction and return to natural science...

The inherent nature of Intelligence to *balance* is so strong that the elements will *explode* any excess when forced into a *bond* with another element that creates an imbalance.

They will immediately *balance* by exploding. This is why bombs explode...

This is a brief introduction to the chemistry of the elements.

As to WHY Intelligence manifests *matter* ... this is far more interesting:

Intelligence manifests its power of creation into *matter* ...

manifesting human beings, rocks, planets, and all other things because...

Intelligence is inherently self-actualizing and self-balancing.

Intelligence (consciousness, spirit, God, whatever you want to call it) is experiencing all that it is capable of.

And Consciousness is about to make a quantum leap.

Some of you know what I'm talking about.

It's beginning to get awe-some.

Trees and rocks have always been able to talk, to communicate...

Ancient spiritual texts and indigenous tribes have spoken of this.

What is happening is that Consciousness manifested in rocks and water is beginning to interface with the Consciousness of humankind, the Consciousness of the air, and everything else.

This is why serendipity, intuition, and other psychic phenomena have been growing stronger and stronger with so many people.

As this interface of Consciousness intensifies, Consciousness will suddenly take a Quantum Leap of Awareness, and things will get...

let's just say...

it'll blow our minds.

In a good way.

To know our true self as Spells has explained,
and to know our natural environment, as bushman explained,
is to create such an awesome transformation of all we experience, all we know, all we feel, and all we believe.

Thanks Craig for the Quantum is a metaphor for Consciousness.

The Fundamental Laws that Paul refers to are:

Consciousness determines the laws.

The Laws of Thermodynamics are NOT laws. They are NOT accurate.

Consciousness - the mind - makes the laws.

Matter does not make the laws.

Matter demonstrates the Intelligence inherent in the universe, the power, the balance, the beauty, the brilliance, the boldness.

To expect *matter* or the *dynamics* of *heat* to represent a law... is to suggest there is no intelligence - no life - on earth.

Intelligence makes the laws.

To prove the Laws of Thermodynamics are ridiculous:

Energy is neither created or destroyed.

So preposterous.

"The creation of a thousand forests is in one acorn."

This is true, and who denies there is energy in a forest?

We live in an expanding universe. If energy is neither created or destroyed, the universe would implode upon itself.

The Laws of Thermodynamics miss the point that the Invisible Immortal Intelligence makes the laws.

The Invisible Immortal Intelligence is US.

Our true essence is invisible immortal intelligence.

And we are the eternal moment now.

We are the Now.

People trying to *be in the now* miss the point that they *are* the Now.

We are *all* that *is*.

We are the invisible immortal intelligence manifesting everything.

Thanks everybody for sharing your comments and perspectives.

I just wanted to shine some light on the science of life.  

13 Jan 2004 @ 17:27 by RGatliff @ : Measurement
Pragmatically speaking, instead of considering consciousness as something you have or not, maybe it’s better to think about what it is good for, such as planning one's course of action. Consciousness may be easily mesured by how far in the future you are prepared to cope with, and how complex of a future. Such measures could be applied to all sorts of things: migrating birds to world governments. The later is quite disturbing.  

17 Apr 2007 @ 19:19 by Lee @ : consciousness
All consciousness is a product of UNIVERSAL SPIRIT MIND which is connected to all other individualized minds. Be carefull what you think and do because it affects everything else. Do unto everything as you would have it do unto to you if you were it.  

23 Jul 2015 @ 09:06 by Alan @ : It's all the one thing
I don't think either premise works. The Universe is not a closed, random system and neither is it the product of an external "God" capriciously playing games with us all. I found the idea proposed in Neale Donald Walsch's "Conversations With God" books the one that sat best with me. The Universe IS God. Everything in existence is God, expressing itself physically.

The premise, put simply, is this: Before physical existence God knew itself to be all there was and that there was nothing else. It understood and knew everything on an absolute level, but it could not experience any of this because it was all there was and there was nothing else. God needed experience and to do that it needed to create the illusion of separation of itself from itself. It therefore split itself into physical matter at the point of the Big Bang. There was now "separation". There was now "here" and "there" and the distance between the two was measurable. Instead now of knowing, conceptually, the ideas of "up", "down, "hot" and "cold" for instance, it could now experience them as discrete states. We are little bits, "individuations" of God experiencing through free will and choice the infinite possibilities of life itself and adding the the growth of all of it through the experience and "consciousness" is the "Divine Awareness" that powers the whole process.  

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