Ming the Mechanic:

The NewsLog of Flemming Funch
 Action2002-02-21 14:37
pictureby Flemming Funch

Part of the reason why I started NCN originally was because I felt it was time to take action. Enough talk, enough philosophizing, now we need to actually build something together based on what we believe in, and now we need to actually go out and make the world right, as if it depended on us.

It is no different today. I wouldn't pour most of my time into building this virtual environment here if it was only going to be a social club. The only reason I keep doing so is because I still believe we'll find out how to arrange things so that we actually make a difference in the world. So far we haven't found the formula.

Sure, this is very nice place. Very inspiring people. And many people come here and get inspired, and then have a little more hope about us being able to create a better world. But that is mostly what we produce at this point - some inspiring words that people can take away with them.

And, although most of us are longing for "doing something", there are various things in the way.

First of all, we have very different ideas about what "doing something" means. We have very different ways of taking action. And many of us have negative opininions about other people's ways.

For some people, "taking action" means to go out on the street and carry placards and protest government policies. For others it means to go to Africa and help local villagers drill a well and acquire medicine. For some it means to invent machines that do more with less without pollution. Some people will write and paint and play music, and that is to take action. For some people, a real thorough conversation and analysis of the issues, bringing forth all the useful references we can, that would be action. For some of us it is "doing something" when we're meeting new people and being nice to them and learning more about them. Some people only feel they're doing something when they're making more money.

You can't project your frustration about "not doing something" onto everybody else. That other people DO in a different way is *no excuse* for you. Do what YOU need to do. Don't expect that everybody else will follow and that they will do the same thing. Find the people who do agree with you on what needs to be done, and how, and then DO it.

The other major block towards collectively taking action is indeed that mistaken belief that we all have to do the same thing. If I would be unkind I could say that it is the product of the brainwashed, conformist population of the old civilization, waiting for their governments or their employers or their priests to tell them what to do.

As far as I am concerned, it would be the death of NCN if everybody here agreed on only one thing to do. E.g. if we all agreed that what we were gonna do is to present this one petition to the U.S. government, or to the U.N., or what we all were gonna do is to create this one intentional community, and then we'll all move there.

LOTS of things need doing. And they definitely won't get done if we all have to pick the same one thing to do. They will only get done if we split up our activities and we work on different parts of the puzzle, individually and in small groups.

You don't need agreement. If nobody at all agrees with you, do it anyway, and keep the rest of us posted about what you accomplish. If you find a few people who agree with you, great, you're a team. Again, just go do it, and keep the rest of us informed once in a while about what you're doing.

If you're spending all your effort on trying to convince everybody else here what they need to do, or if you're trying to discover what we all are agreeing on, you're wasting your time. We all agree that we want to make a better world, and we all agree to maintain some kind of communication between us. Most of the rest we don't all agree on.

Personally, I am every day doing what I think my work is. Part of my job is to maintain and improve this online NCN environment. I DO that. I'm not waiting for anything. Some of you might want to help with that, but, most likely, the rest of you have something else to do, and this is only a vehicle for staying connected. Just because you sometimes call people on the phone doesn't mean you should suddenly use a lot of effort on making a better phone system. Same with NCN. Concentrate on what your job is, and let others do what their thing is.

There is no reason to wait. You don't need the agreement and support of everybody else here. Put the call out and hear if others want to do the same thing. If so, get together with them, and then do it. Nothing to wait for.

If your intentions somehow seem to require that everybody else here agrees and backs you up, then you've probably picked the wrong thing. The things to do are the stuff that you see need doing, and that you are able to do, and that you have the means to do.

Even if it is something very ambitious that you want to do, there's always something you can do about it right now. If not, you've picked something that isn't real.

If your passion is to arrange manned flights to Mars, then maybe you don't have the resources to do that right now, but you certainly have the means and resources to gather information, to research it, to tell people about it, and to work on how it might be done. Standing around and complaining that nobody else wants to give it priority would NOT be the thing to do.

Notice that there are lots of people already very focused on doing things, on carrying out their projects, on making things happen, despite the obstacles. And, even though lots of people like that are on the member list of NCN, most of them are not showing up every day in the member area and having discussions about it, and we don't hear much from most of them.

It often seems like the people who're really doing something don't have time to stand around and talk about it. And those who do have time to stand around and talk about it haven't figured out how to do anything yet. I would like to get that situation balanced out a bit. I.e. I'd like to hear much more from the people who are busy with their projects. I don't need them to hang around for long discussions, but I want to hear what they're doing, how they're doing it, what they're accomplishing, and what they're learning.

If you feel insulted by anything I'm saying, that is not my intention. I'm not talking about you. Really I don't have much time to spend on talking about you. I'd like to talk about all the things we're doing.

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21 Feb 2002 @ 16:10 by simpleman : INSPIRED
Ming, let it all hang out. I'm inspired by your log, definitly not insulted. NCN has brought me back from the 40hr week, come home and do nothing, basically, exist with no place to go, like a couch potato. Since joining NCN, I find myself thinking again, writing again, and doing again. I feel inspired to contribute in my own ways, and sharing those experiences with other members, who are contributing thier own ways. Everything I do, I do for myself first, with the hope that ALL benefit from the experience. I find additional strength from the whole experience whether anyone agrees with me or not, and I hope everyone feels that strength.

P.S. For everyone who reads this log. Keep doing what YOU do best, regardless of what anyone thinks.  

21 Feb 2002 @ 16:22 by ming : What we do
I hope to also bring more of us in here. Like, we're hearing remarkably little about what everybody's doing outside of here. As if we're a bit embarrassed about having a "normal" 40hr/week job, so we'd rather not mention it. I believe the new starts where we already are. So, if you spend most of your time being an accountant, but you want to create a new and better world, let's figure out how to connect the two, without denying any of them.  

21 Feb 2002 @ 21:58 by mmmark : Context Is Important
Many of the things we read seem to be misunderstood because context is not provided for the expression. There is tendency to make comment as though everything is rolled into one big ball, without consideration for where an idea applies. Members have been claiming the right to disagree as though someone said they didn’t have that right, a thought I have not read anywhere. Some say we have the right to agree as well, which you have mentioned here to be necessary for certain purposes. I often get confused with your posts because they do not seem to be set in context. It sounds philosophic and not concrete. I really love your desire to protect individual rights and encourage personal power to act independently as they are both important aspects of life. However, They become completely different concerns in different context. I have a personal mission to talk about global harmony and all the things that must align to do that. They are philosophic and non-specific, specifically to optimize freedom through responsible behavior in common interest. Regardless of my description of these things, regardless of whether others agree with me, the principle of cooperation to operate within civil bounds is something we all must agree on – for reasons that will not be mentioned again here. Members have cautioned us to just "do it," good motivation, good advice as it applies to our own personal activity, but it does not address the issue of action as it applies to various sizes and kinds of communities. As you explain your personal intent to maintain NCN, it is not clear what your vision is for the capability of it. Contrary to your contention, if everyone on NCN did agree it would no longer serve a purpose, I believe that would indicate a united group of people who would then been seen as a success story for civilized community, and allow us to have social and political clout outside the web. Clear perspective will change radically if we talk about our role at home, at work, the PTA, City government, State government, Federal government, Global government, and these are very much different than anything we know or will experience in online communities. I would be very grateful personally if you were to identify your thoughts as they apply to humanity, from the things you have to say specifically about NCN as sole proprietor, similar in idea to the hats used in the work groups. I say this with respect, to avoid misunderstanding your writing, and to better support the ideas of a "Peach," or debate them in context. What do you have planned for NCN Site Development for the rest of 2002?  

21 Feb 2002 @ 23:26 by shawa : Very interesting (and inspiring)
I´m onto something. I think I understand Ming´s philosophy as expressed here. As "understanding" things is what I do best, now I need to understand why Mark does not "get" what Ming says; it is so beautifully simple. Mark, I´m really interested in that. And I´ll come up with something, and will share it, OK? Next, I´ll just do what´s important for me in NCN; concrete project (new workgroup); Newslog (interface and platform for sharing publicly). Outside NCN, I´ve been DOING for fifteen straight years now, creating the Earth Sanctuary, and the Phoenix-21 group. For me, the bridge is complete : from concrete reality to my NCN membership. And BOTH are being INFLUENCED by the other.  

22 Feb 2002 @ 00:39 by jstarrs : Ming
Maybe I'm not s'posed to (lol!) but I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I'm not looking to sign on to some team of people with the same ideas here at NCN, I know from past experience that I have a problem working in the context of groups/associations etc and that I prefer to offer what I can to this ol' spinning planet as an idividual but I can't stress enough the importance for me to know that the people here at NCN support me far more than they realize, with their optimism, caring and concern. That's why I'm here, even if we're all working separately in our own ways, there ARE strands that bind us all. I call it a supportive web. With out it I would feel demoralized and alone.  

22 Feb 2002 @ 01:19 by jazzolog : Clear and Simple
"Instead of giving money to found colleges to promote learning, why don't they pass a constitutional amendment prohibiting anybody from learning anything? If it works as good as the Prohibition one did, why, in five years we would have the smartest race of people on earth."

- Will Rogers

"...conformist population of the old civilization, waiting for their governments or their employers or their priests to tell them what to do." The consensus among folks I know "out there," from all walks and classes of life and degrees of education, in these 40 years that I've been holding down jobs in this U.S. of A. IS that a buy-and-devour consumer-oriented Television Consciousness tells the citizenry what to do. Increasingly those folks are getting into computers now, and the "free" market is hitting them with popups as fast as it can.

I think Americans will kill off whole nations to get enough gasoline to keep their ride-around lawnmower going. Weed-wackers and leaf-blowers---God forbid we should kneel down and pull a weed out of a crack in the sidewalk. Dowse the dandelion in weedkiller. Yanks have forgotten how to push a broom.

Dana and I spent the last 20 years, walking through the hallways of our individual school buildings, just closing doors teachers and kids leave open while they're outside for recess. Dana even puts up signs that say "Don't be an energy hog!" as heat or air conditioning goes screaming up to the ozone---from SCHOOLS! The other teachers get mad at her because they don't want to bother bringing their keys with them, and the doors lock when they go out so madmen with guns can't get into the schools and start blasting. Those of us on the front lines out here tangle with this stuff everyday in our work to talk sense to the "old" civilization.

I have an out-of-work friend, who has his Phd in zoology and knows more about salamanders than anyone alive, who says the sooner the planet runs out of oil the better. At first I was shocked by his view, but slowly I've come around to see what he means. Getting off the grid seems to be a viable option for many new civilizers, and I welcome the new technologies that are increasing to help with that. But I can't afford 'em yet---and since my interest is more with ethics than fuel cells, I'd have to find a community that's doing it, and somehow wanted an actor/poet guy around. Not many of them---unfortunately.

I appreciate what Ming has done with this post. I too think it is a clear and simple declaration of what this site is about and where we're at today. I am saddened with the personalities who have left over the past month, or who drop by once in a while to check emails and then take off without so much as a howdydoo to the rest of us. I am appalled by the apparent thousands of members who signed up for some unknown reason and never come in at all! But Ming is standing his ground and I am grateful for that.

I just wrote to Kay, who invited me to join so recently, and commented chattingly to her about the activities of the various members I've been writing to in and out of these rooms; and suddenly the realization hit me that a month ago I didn't know any of them. I don't have a big perspective, but I'd say that in this month NCN has made some progress, in my life anyway. Keep on keepin' on!  

22 Feb 2002 @ 01:54 by ming : Understanding
I occasionally get frustrated when people don't understand me. I care much less about agreement, but I guess it is important to me to be understood. Now, particularly when it is somebody like Mark here whom I consider my friend. So I get kind of puzzled when I think that I am communicating, in the most clear way I possibly can, the most relevant and tangible truth that pertains to the present situation - and you hear it as some kind of abstract philosophizing that doesn't have much to do with what is really going on. And, since I sometimes perceive your postings in a similar way, I suspect there is something to learn here somewhere. So, as Shakti Ma, I'd like to understand the different perspective you have, or the different assumptions you have. I'd like to understand where you're coming from. Because it seems like we ought to work together, but so far we're talking about .. eh.. peaches and oranges, and they don't fit.  

22 Feb 2002 @ 15:00 by jazzolog : Slander
I've heard Ming moan here and at various logs that people think up stuff but don't do anything. We get into disagreements and misunderstandings which lead to fights and people walking away. He doesn't understand it. Why are we so childish?
Sir, in the brief weeks I have been in here I have witnessed people hurl epithets that are pure libel, slander and character assassination. It was done to me. It was done to others. I know of no community in my experience where, if that is done, some committee, council of review, law enforcement (in the case of indictable crimes) or other agency is NOT summoned into action. Where are these facilities here? There are attorneys, therapists up the poopshoot, a myriad of people counseling love and hugs, but no method for convening to negotiate and reconcile. And you say we're supposed to take this "place" seriously? No one was more urgent than you, during my difficulties, that I should "walk away." "Why the heck not?" I believe you asked. Now you inquire the contrary. You want us committed. What say you...and no need at all to rehash particulars of any single situations?  

22 Feb 2002 @ 18:51 by ming : Review Boards
Oh, I certainly don't want you to be committed to fighting each other, or committed to communicating to people who don't want to talk with you. I'd hope for you to be committed to what you want to do, together with others who want to do the same thing. I hope our focus can be on the things we might accomplish, not on all those people who're in a totally different place. But for people who are working on the same project, I'd certainly hope that they would be willing to work through their issues until they arrive at a result. There are some settings where arguing only leads to more conflict, and there are some settings where they lead to a resolution and a product of some kind. I suppose one distinction is whether or not the people arguing have agreed in advance on what their common outcome is. If they haven't, and they have different assumptions, then arguing is quite possibly not useful. But if the participants have agreed on making something happen together, and they're discussing the finer points of how to get there, then it might very well be productive, even if it is temporarily unpleasant. Maybe we should have some more formal method of recognizing that difference, I'm not sure.

I'm all for having some kind of review board or arbitration agency. I certainly don't find it pleasant if I personally am the one to decide all disputes. I'd rather have a group of people who can be neutral and professional about it who can look through the facts and announce their findings.  

23 Feb 2002 @ 01:41 by jazzolog : RE: Review Boards
Sounds good to me, Ming. So far we have you and me, who, if not completely FOR it, are at least not opposed to such a judicial "branch" on the great family tree. I can't be on it, of course, because my reputation is stained as a potential aggrieved party; what is that new term: I would have to recuse myself? You probably oughtn't, since you're already an executive and maybe legislator too.
The way you phrase "committed to fighting each other" doesn't sound so hot, but actually people can believe fervently in different things around here and discuss those opposing views in a "new" civilized fashion. You've said "over and over" that people don't have to agree here about stuff.
As to whether people who have decided not to talk to each other anymore should be mandated to do so, I'm not so sure you're right about apparently shrugging off that possibility. That's why there are aspects of a judiciary. If I smash your car and won't talk to you about it, you haul me into court to coerce a resolution of your grievance. In grade school you both may have to go see the principal if you had a fight on the playground and now won't apologize to each other for disturbing the peace. It would be peculiar indeed if "new" age and "new" civilization ends up meaning only a return to infantile perception.
Yes, yes, yes to a focus on what we can all accomplish together, but compost happens and things bog down in the day-to-day realization of those goals. I'd love to see a study group on the unique nature of relationship and group organization in the computer medium. But in the meantime, there should be a way a player can yell "Foul" if a rule is seen as broken, and a referee should respond.
So who could be on this independent and unprejudiced review board? Nominations from the floor? Then we'd argue about elections and democracy again. Appointment? Possibly, based on longevity maybe---a panel of elders, as it were. But maybe we increasing numbers of young folk would be upset---ahem---. How about that Web of Trust feature? I'm not at all comfortable with it, because of the arbitrariness of giving points to people---and taking them away again ("I don't like that post you just put up so, just for that, I'm reducing you from a Friend to an Acquaintance."). BUT we might discover that people who have a lot of points, a high score on the TrustWeb, are those who are getting along well with a lot of different kinds of people, and best suited to arbitrate or at least keep a cool and unbiased mind. It's a feature that already exists here, along with Where-Have-I-Been (which I may need increasingly as old age takes over) and therefore available for quick consensus, a democratic vote, or a hierarchical command. Thanks, Richard  

23 Feb 2002 @ 02:07 by ming : Boards of Review
Hm, yeah, I suppose the web of trust could tie into who we could expect to make good judgements. That was part of the idea at least. But, interestingly, the people who end up in bloody conflicts often have very high ratings in the Web of Trust system, which makes it all the more messy.

I'm leaning towards arbitration being a sort of independent profession. Meaning, instead of THE official Supreme Court of NCN, for example, there would be people around who have proven themselves as just and efficient Arbiters. And some of those would be called in where there's a need, and their performance record is tracked. I haven't completely thought it through, but I would favor some kind of self-organizing system.  

23 Feb 2002 @ 02:33 by jazzolog : RE: Boards of Review
Nope won't work. Self-organizing is a posse of vigilantes. This process already exists, I imagine, in private emails here: I'm sure I'm hanging from a tree---at best---in that review system. I think we should hold you to the initial setup. You came up with the Web of Trust and apparently refer to it. There needs to be a structure and only you can provide the tools for that. It will de-centralize somewhat, but at least half of you wants that, Ming. Once there's something there, people can use and change and "self-organize" it. I believe a good friend wrote to me early on that this place is the Wild West. No more lynchings! Richard  

23 Feb 2002 @ 03:16 by mmmark : Tools
Hey Ming & Jazz - All we need is a chatroom for three called the Arbitration Room. If such a thing were made - it could have very specific guidline ideas about how to best use the room to settle dispute for two - like a "read me first" doc.If that didn't work a third party - an arbitrator, counselor could easily be found to assist in the next level of resolution suggestions. But then I will also say it should have calming music playing in there to boot. We could use more tools. Most of the problems here have been superficial and many could be avoided if there was consciousness gathered about communications skill development, specifically for online places like this.  

23 Feb 2002 @ 03:31 by jazzolog : The Tools Look Great
I agree with that Mark---and of course that room probably should be private, with maybe a decision of agreement forthcoming. I'm interested in the process of "easily" finding this or these arbitors though---and that's where a structure is necessary. Would Ming choose? Furthermore, I need a place to go to call an arbitration meeting...or if I am called. Would I be subpoenaed? (I'd rather have that than be skewered on somebody's newslog.) And if that happens people should know that it is, I believe, and maybe what issue is involved. There could be a "docket" posted at a link to the Board of Review---could there be another name please? we do have poets here besides therapists---and people could know if a Judge Judy is presiding, or if there are revelations or dangers.
The same could be done with a legislative branch, maybe growing out of the Site Development group. That outfit certainly should be accessible to the membership---and even the public! I've been in one too many Principal's Advisory Groups, in which the petitioners essentially come forward, hat in hand, and beg for equipment, and the administrator has all the power. Decentralization can work for everybody, no matter what form of decision-making you favor---except the authoritarian of course.  

3 Mar 2002 @ 20:04 by freedom : Serving the Planetery transformation
I was in a book store when soul love came flying off the shelf and landed at my feet. I picked it up and oopenedit and it said you can now teach Soul Love. So I will find some space and do a flyer or two and begin to hold Soul Love Meditations when we as a group will send love energy out to the world for healing where it may. i can do that.  

4 Mar 2002 @ 03:31 by ming : Transformation
That's wonderful, freedom! Keep us posted.  

4 Mar 2002 @ 03:50 by ming : Arbitration
Jazzolog and Mark, I appreciate the good suggestions. I hadn't noticed this thread continuing at first. I guess I'm still searching for what will work. A mediation room for 2 or 3 (with a mediator) would be good, and special facilities could exist for that, that helps them through the process. But one problem is that in really bad conflicts, one of the parties will often refuse any kind of mediation, so then it doesn't really matter what kind of mediation room exists, unless it was somehow forced that they were going to be there.

As to legislative, judicial and executive branches... although I think the original concept behind that was well intended, and the result at the time maybe better than the available alternatives, I think it is still a very imperfect approach. In my mind, in today's world, it promotes rampant irresponsibility in governments. The legislative branch can pass laws that have little to do with reality because they're not in touch with it, and they never have to face the actual consequences of those laws. The judicial branch can be just "doing its job" because it didn't make those silly laws, so a judge can with a clean conscience send somebody into prison for life for shop lifting, just because the law told him so. And, well, the only real advantage I can see to the system is that the law making and the judging is kept out of the hands of the executives so they don't get too powerful. But the whole thing is not exactly anything I feel much like modeling. Not that I see in any clear way what should replace it.  

5 Mar 2002 @ 00:26 by jazzolog : Backbone at NCN
We seem to concentrate with headbones a lot at NCN. When the rest of the body kicks in gear on a computer, do we achieve a balance of some kind or not? If not, and we have an injurious flame issue forth, what do we do? I would welcome new understanding of myself and a therapy when I do it. We have yet to map out our neurotransmitters (so far as I know) while we're "interacting" with this device, but it is a study that needs to be done. The American Psychiatric Association is offering diagnoses anyway for what happens to people on the computer.

Ming asks again and again what about if people won't cooperate with such advice, given independently by what is now being called a Mediation Council (better than "review board"!). I say, issue a penalty. Yes, penalty. Do I sense a clucking of tongues and shaking of heads at such a notion? Consider this, please:

Last evening I went to a meeting at my daughter's public elementary school, which also is where my wife teaches special education. It was an information meeting for parents (and kids) about a 3-day trip for the entire 5th and 6th grades (a couple hundred students) to a Nature and Arts camp over towards Cincinnati and the Serpent Mound.
http://www.anthro.mankato.msus.edu/archaeology/sites/northamerica/serpent.html http://greatserpentmound.org/articles/solar.html
I think New Civilization Network members would be thrilled with the setup at this camp. One aspect though might be controversial but certainly is pertinent here. The governing group of the camp is very concerned about food waste here in the States, and particularly at our school cafeterias. Those of you abroad probably wouldn't believe how much food children throw away here! At the camp, any food left on a plate by anyone (adult or child) is weighed, and that whole group receives a penalty accordingly. In the ten years that the Morrison Elementary School has taken this gigantic number of students over there every year, not one ounce of wasted food has been calculated against the school. Not one. Food for thought.  

5 Mar 2002 @ 01:19 by ming : Penalties
First of all, yes, it is too much our headbones we're using here. Many things would probably be sorted out more easily if more of our bodies were involved.

As to penalties, well, yes, I believe in systems that make it easier to do the "right" thing and harder to do the "wrong" thing. I don't believe much in abstract punishment schemes that requires somebody to arbitrarily enforce it on people against their will. But it can often be done more smoothly, like in a game, where people voluntarily will adhere to the rules, and remind others to do so, and where they naturally will do those things that will bring them or their team ahead in the game. I suppose what you describe above with the food leftovers would function as a game for the participants.  

5 Mar 2002 @ 10:06 by bushman : Hmmmm
Well I wasnt going to get involved in this, but apperently you guys are missing the point here. #1 It makes no nevermind to me what lies or remarkes in a slanderous nature are projected at me or about me, I know the truth about me, Im not going to go whinning and crying about it, nor file some law suit, lol, I see doing so as weakness, if you cant take it get out of the kitchen , but I can take it because I know where it comes from. It comes from peoples own negative issues with them selves, when they get attacked or slandered in some way it pulls on that little string that thought or fantasy in your own mind that you know is wrong, but with no way to sling something back without feeling bad about it, so you would go running to mommy?
I think some people should get a grip, :} A tribal counsel would be a great idea for um more sever crimes against your fellow man, it worked well for them, it would work well for us, don't forget this they did not have a death penalty, if you killed your niegbor then you had to take on his family and his responsabilitys, everything including his pain and debts too, basicly they found having to live with it was punishment enough. Somethimes they would boot you out of the tribe till you proved that you still belonged. Same as a right of passage every child had to pass before being accepted as one of the tribe in the first place. The most important thing to the native anyway was the tribe itself and not the individual this means also that they knew from that first test in childhood that thier purpose here was to the whole group. With out the tribe you would not be whole so as one of the tribe being cast out was the worst punishment imaginable to the native, too bad we dont use this logic anymore.
bottom line is that its your own choice to be offended by someone elses lies. Its my personal opinion as one of the tribe that whinning is a sign of weakness, if its brought before the elders they will then give a choice for the partys involved, this choice would beniffit the whole tribe regaurdless of the individuals involved, 9 times out of 10 the partys involved would make thier own agreement long before the elders got wind of it.

5 Mar 2002 @ 11:59 by jazzolog : bushman : Hmmmm
Fight or flight are not the only two choices, mr president. It may be that an appeal to Justice is a salute to Mother. It may be that an attempt to educate the caveman is to invite the frustration of whining and tears. But for some of us the real measure of toughness is not whether I can bring another to his knees with my insults---which I know I can do---but whether I can lift him up with nobility and purpose.  

5 Mar 2002 @ 13:30 by bushman : Buracracy?
The point maybe, that the more buracracy the less efficiant. I was raised in a family that had a rule called the tattle tail rule and accualy more times than not I got in trouble with the parents everytime I went to them with a complaint about one of my brothers, it basicly taught us not to say anything about it to mom and dad and work it out and we did, this also made us closer as brothers as well.
Also in the tribe it was usualy a last resort to exile even one individual since the elders knew it takes all to survive, even then individuals of the tribe would create a seperate clan or faction if there was no concevable way to solve the dispute.
I've delt with this whole thing for 5 years on mplayer.com and trust me when I say, it was the wild west in the stone age, we set up fight rooms to solve the baby stuff, and semi moderated it, just pointing out to them the differance between an attack and a judgment, compared with a dissagreement, it worked well, for those that realy wanted to particapat in it that is. As for those that couldnt agree they went out on thier own to form thier own groups/clans/familys, still to this day those clans still do good work for the world tribe, in thier own way. It was very hard to stay neutral in thier dissputes but as an elder, there was no choice. Rarly was the tribe attacked by another clan , but as the clans would war amongst themselves and each other it would spill over to the rest of the clans, when this would happen everyone would be hacked , lol. So the tribe filled that space of sancuary as the elders, we could accualy stop the mayhem, like I said jazz the things your talking about here are minisquel compaired with the truth thats out there now. We had to stop a major clan war between the the ARMX clan, a white supremicy group of 500 members, the ANGELE clan, a small group that saw god as the only answer but could hack anything, and the VAMPS basicly proclaimed as a dark force group that would hack everyone in a faction that didn't agree with them. The tribe would set up sumits with thier leaders and moderate. So anyway the NCN has plenty of room and is exacly the same, as I see it, we have all that here and the space to do as we please without laying down rules and laws for the participants. Self government, is the key to all this, not adding buracracy. Incedently the VAMPS broke up into 3 factions and now seem to hack each other , lol. Just deserts? The ARMX have learned thier lesson and they are part of the original tribe to this day, they no longer force thier belifes on the rest. The ANGELE clan has gone underground, I still have contact with thier original leader, but roumor has it that there was a coop and they may have splintered into factions as well. Good or bad? I don't know, it's thier choice. Also when mplayer got wind of what we where doing they changed thier banning policy, lol, I don't know if they were testing us or what, but before, when they banned someone or an entire clan, it was from the entire system. So what they did was change that so that even if you got banned you could still get into the tribes lobby, they where the worst of the worst, yet we still worked with them no matter how we where treated by them. Some of the nastyest people I ever met, lol, no one in the NCN could even come close, not even you jazz.
bushman :}  

5 Mar 2002 @ 13:56 by jazzolog : Good Laugh, Bush!
I like a finish with a good punchline. And you got it! Glad to meet ya man. LOL  

5 Mar 2002 @ 14:50 by ming : Tribal councils
Yeah, I basically agree with you, Bushman. What we need is not some bureaucracy. I'd as well be leaning towards some kind of tribal tradition, where, if it is really serious enough, you can bother a council of elders with the matter, but really you should sort out most things yourself. And I like the sort of traditional down-to-earth decisions like you describe. Sort of like the wisdom of King Solomon.

I think one of the things that's wrong with our current society is exactly that there's a bureacracy one can go and tattle to. "If you don't turn down that radio, I'll call the police" kind of thing. I think things in principle need to be sorted out exactly where they're happening. If that doesn't succeed it can involve the next higher level, etc. Like, if you can't sort it out with your brother, it might involve the whole household. If you still aren't getting anywhere, you might involve everybody in your neighborhood. With most things one should get embarrassed before it gets too far, and just work things out. But generally it isn't a good idea with a completely foreign element (the police) one can just call into a conflict by grabbing the phone.

Hm, that gets me thinking... In here, in the NCN member area, we don't have clear distinctions on what "tribe" people are part of. Except for maybe if something happens within a certain workgroup. But if two people are having a conflict, it easily becomes an apparent NCN-wide conflict, where it really shouldn't be. There should be a next higher level, and it shouldn't be to broadcast the conflict to anybody and everybody. Hmm, I'm not quite sure how that ought to be structured in practicality here. My vision of it is as wider and wider circles, but I can't quite figure out the actual details.  

5 Mar 2002 @ 15:31 by bushman : Details
Well thanks :}, I think those details are already in place via the vision. Just got to be the vision.
This is what I live by, and what I would die for. If it dosn't do justice to the vission, then its not part of the vission.
This is who I am, this is what I am, and the only reason why I am here. This is the NCN. Ming, theres so much more to this place than you ever thought possable, I wish I could explain what I mean, other than I know what we do here transends space and time, we infiltrate the conciousness of the whole planet from the past to bring about change in the future, I realy wish I could explaine this, lol. Ive seen it though, when surffing the net, the syncronicity, the same intuitions, bla bla bla, the NCN is a force. Just like your concentric rings going out into the cosmos, we ping the universal conciousness, like sonar. Sounds scary huh? I have to tell you , that over the last 5 years, this is quite eviedent to me anyway. Basicly I belive the NCN sent the vission into the past from the future, maybe to connect our spirits in the past to give us time, to do whatever it is we do in the future, maybe we ran out of time, so as a last ditch effort, we sent the vission, somehow?
bushman :}  

5 Mar 2002 @ 18:08 by ming : Pinging the Universe
Thanks Bushman, I sort of needed to be reminded of that. I think I get what you mean, and I actually used to be much more in touch with that, and I sort of forgot it recently. Time to wake up from the little nap.

For everybody else ... a remarkable synchronicity was that Bushman came here from another group that had almost exactly the same vision/mission statement as the We are the New Civilization thing. Only a couple of words were different. A large group of them had brainstormed it together. And yet I, independently, in another space and time, woke up from a nap one day and wrote it down in the book I write my dreams in.

There's certainly more going on, and more deeper connections, than we might guess at the surface.  

5 Mar 2002 @ 19:03 by bushman : very deep :}
I aslo had a dream, back then. I saw a place where no government could touch us, it's here on Earth now, just waitting for the new civilization to rise up out of the ashes of the past/future?. This place is on Hopi land, it's called the 3rd mesa. It was set aside thousands of years ago by the Hopi for just this purpose, to build the new civilization. And it's worded exacly that way in thier prophecys as well. The NCN a gathering place? I know this sounds crazy but this is what I saw.
Also when I first moved to AZ I had to camp out for 4 months in a tent. One day these 2 native american bums came by my camp both where suffering from alcohal DT's, so I bought them a six pack, they stayed in my camp for 2 days then asked if Id give them a ride to the next town, so I did. One of them called me brownhorse and handed me a phone number. Well finaly I got this trailer and a phone line. As I was cleaning stuff out of my back pack I found the number and called it just to see how these guys where doing. Well to my suprize and shock, sort of, it was the number to the Hopi tribal lands reality office. Turns out that only those given this phone number are allowed to buy land. So just out of curiosity I asked what an acer of land costs, he said 200 bucks an acer and you could buy them 1 at a time if you want and you have to sign a paper that states that you will participate in the community.
This will be my next move, once Ive replaced the engine in my truck. I will buy 5 acers right off. And see what happens. :}  

5 Mar 2002 @ 19:46 by ming : 3rd Mesa
Wow, that's something. Sign me up for 5 acres next to yours if you want.  

5 Mar 2002 @ 19:58 by bushman : Read this.
If you haven't read this stuff before, I personaly recomend it. :}
Ya, this is the one :}  

6 Mar 2002 @ 04:35 by jazzolog : Anti-Tribe
I do not intend anything personal in this comment. I think Bushman already knows me well enough to realize we can disagree about ideas and still be good friends.

I am disappointed but not surprised that there do not seem to be any historians or political theorists in this august membership. If there were I feel certain someone would have stepped forward to dismantle any serious proposal that we revert to a system of tribal rule. Such a view strikes me as apocalyptic, and therefore very much a part of the problem this civilization faces: hopelessness. We very well may find ourselves eventually sitting our naked butts around a campfire---if there's any wood---given the direction of current events, but I'm not ready to join the circle yet.

In fact the very idea of tossing out the ideas of Locke, Rousseau, Marx, and even Hobbes for a reversion to the Divine Right of Kings (even if it is Solomon---and not an idiot son or daughter that might issue forth next) is unthinkable enough for this citizen. To go back further to the Icelandic Njal Saga of Thorgeir, the Priest of Lightwater, approaches advocacy of regression. The United States presently is involved with the Warring Tribes of Arabia, it seems, but I see no progress in joining the ranks of such centuries-old disorganization.

I hope we will attend to the New part of the Civilization Network, rather than don rosy glasses of romance about what life in a tribe was like. Mostly it was paranoid. Shakti's work deprogramming cultists may have provided her with expertise to comment on those mindsets. A classic text on political theory is The Modern Democratic State by A.D. Lindsay. There's no synchronicity in the fact it was published in 1943.  

6 Mar 2002 @ 07:36 by invictus : Curious...
Jazzolog, are you familiar with the works of a man by the name of Daniel Quinn? He promotes a kind of tribalism that does not involve reversion to camp fire sitting (though I do enjoy a good camp fire sit from time to time). He looks at tribalism as a lifestyle that prospered for thousands of years until our "culture" came along. Culture here is used in very broad terms. I could go on and on; it was his books that first got me really interested in saving the world. I don't agree with every aspect of it, but there are other perspectives on tribalism out there; not all of them involve collapse of the world as we know it.  

6 Mar 2002 @ 08:42 by jazzolog : Thanks for the Tip, Andy
I'm doing a search on him and reading sites, but I see this should be a book experience---that kind of privacy and intimacy. While not really tribal guys, poets Gary Snyder and Robert Bly have fascinated me for years. I've seen Bly arrange an auditorium full of people by bringing all the "elders" (people over 50) and having them sit in the front rows. The power of that impact is staggering.
But "power" is the big word here. Give it up to a dude in a rainbow suit and you're headed for trouble, buddy. We the people still have it here in the States...and don't kid yourself, this citizenry has risen up before and set things right. It can happen!  

6 Mar 2002 @ 09:39 by invictus : Dude in a Rainbow Suit
Don't worry. I'm in no danger of giving anything to any rainbow dudes. I'd never join a cult. I just like some of the stuff the man has to say. Let's hope we do rise up; American people and the rest of the world too.
PS I'm quite amused by the dude in the rainbow suit thing; don't know why.  

6 Mar 2002 @ 09:58 by bushman : Tribalisim
We do see eye to eye on this tribal thing, I wouldn't want to see us revert that far back. For me no way to shed all matirial things, I will allways need this pc, lol.
A modern tribal mindset is all I'm realy promoting. What is sacred to you? Respect for your mother {Earth}, Knowing a rock is more than a rock, seeing a river not as just a waterway to be taimed, but as an atrery that nourishes the sea. One thing that many people don't see is that the tribal ideals delt mostly with land managment and the children. The willingness to listen to them all. I know this sounds silly but, have any of you ever sat down next to a rock and had a conversation? They do speak, in a tribal view we listen with all parts of the mind and body, you may not hear a sound form the rock, but your eyes can hear too. As I see it, everything is everything, even nothing is accualy something, I am you, you are me.
We don,t have to tear up the planet anymore, plenty of stuff out there to recycle. It depends alot on what you personal hold sacred as to what is needed compaired with what is wanted.
I supose that when we gather to be part of a new civilization community, ours will be just as unique as all the others that will be out there too.
It's happening out here as we speak, home owners assosciations with in a secured community, with by laws and rules that protect the land they occupy. We have 2 communitys of retired folk, all in thier own nice home , not a convelesent home, they have live ins that cook clean shop, even go out and golf with them, one of the best ways to show respect for your elders. We have a community up on a mesa, totaly inacessable by car or truck, so these people have a runway as thier street and garages just like most to park thier planes in, lol, very cool setup. A tribal view of them? The people of the mesa who can fly?
So I don't see we have to give up on technology to revert to a more tribal mindset. We need to just respect what we have allready. Put the tech we allready have to good uses, listen to the children of the mother.
Also as for a community government, that will depend on that community, as it is now you have a choice of communitys, each with its own bylaws and rules, traditions, and ideals. All you can do is listen to each and decide wich one is your cup of tea, wich one will let you participate in its own unique government. Micro colonys?
As for the dude in the rainbow suit, lol, if he wore a black and white suit you'd never see him, and then you wouldn't know something was going down or something was up, I'm guessing here but when you see this guy in the rainbow suit, don't you say to yourself, whats up with that? lol.
Bushman :}  

6 Mar 2002 @ 11:57 by jazzolog : What's Up with Off-the-Grid?
I know we see eye-to-eye on all these goals and ideals, with respect for the children and the land. I don't know if we can keep the technology, Bushman, I really don't. If your PC is off the grid, fine. Mine isn't, nor do I have a windmill. I'm stuck with a power company, I'm stuck with real estate taxes, we have woodstoves and plenty of forest which I manage lovingly but we supplement with propane, I'm on my own well---one of the last in the whole county I think---and it's good but it's a quarter mile down the hill and an electric pump runs it, we compost like hell and haul to the recycling center everything else---in a gasoline-powered car. All of those companies and public utilities and governments need my loving management too. That's the really hard part.

There are lots of intentional communities around Athens County, Ohio. They each have unique hierarchies and chieftains and facilitators and witches and clowns and organic growers and artisans. It is completely possible to live here and not even talk to the power structure, except at tax time and depending on the necessaries you must buy at the hardware store or something. But comes along a highway, comes along a Walmart, comes along a lumber company, comes along a mountaintop removal mining operation---and how do all those communities do in organizing their opinions and protests? What's their central organization like and how powerful is it in the community? Can it influence even the development schemes of the University, where you'd think there'd at least be a little empathy? Will the Senator or Representative listen to me? How do I get him to?

Those are the questions that concern me too, Bushman, as they do you. All our little communities are fine, as long as someone in each of them is keeping an eagle eye on the power structure---and doing all we can to influence what the guys in it are doing. All I say is we need to do more of that influencing, relentlessly, without losing a beat. We need to assert our strength as an independent people. We even need to stand for election. In these times that task takes the courage of a real warrior.  

6 Mar 2002 @ 14:15 by ming : Tribal or Global
To me it is not an either-or. It is not that either we live in a mad max world of warring little tribes, or we live in a unified world where we all vote on everything and everything's run by the same rules.

My vision is of circles. Small local circles that fit into larger circles that fit into larger circles, until we cover the globe. Things might be done in different ways in each circle, but they still fit together into a bigger circle.

What has largely been lost for many people in the old civ world is a sense of belonging. It is you, alone, against the next higher level, which is a monolithic government that you can't possibly speak with. What I'm looking for is a lot of steps in-between.

It is a big mistake to assume that tribal has to mean war and conflict. To most it means a sense of belonging with your own kind. Nothing wrong with that. The puzzle to sort out is how that can build up into bigger units, rather than breaking down by having to fight everybody who's different.  

6 Mar 2002 @ 15:16 by bushman : Boycot
I personaly just say no, to taxes, they hate me for it, lol. And no, I'm definetly not off the grid yet, but I'm working on it. When I say recycle it , I mean recycle it your self, this is also in the future , but I do have a friend thats a metal smith, and a machinist, alot of the parts on my truck I had to make myself out of junk, and even stuff from diffrent vehicles, mad max? lol, well ya Ming just in case, lol. Sure jazz id like to play thier game, but I have family in the gov, most all of them as a matter of fact. Trust me they are evil, they have a price. The bigger question maybe votting for people that are trust worthy, this will work good soon for my age group, since those from the 60s will be in power soon, some are allready in there. When the president is my age, then I can vote with confidence, maybe, lol. And maybe a counsel of elders as advisors to those in power would be a good thing. Instead of one president we have 50, instead we have a person from each community ,city ,village, as the representatives, who pass the needs and wants of the citizens to the congress and the house , also each person is from the 50 states. loose the electoral collage , limit the suprem court. As for the people , they should be allowed to live as they please, as long as it does not affect others life styles. We do speak our truth, and they don't listen, give ceaser what he is due? Ha, Vax can tell you what to give ceasar, lol.
Bushman :}  

6 Mar 2002 @ 19:09 by bushman : Found this artical today.
This may fit into this thread/rope, I don't know, :}

7 Mar 2002 @ 08:00 by jazzolog : Clear & Simple
"There has never been a perfect government, because men have passions; and if they did not have passions, there would be no need for government."
- Voltaire  

7 Mar 2002 @ 08:31 by bushman : Evolved
I've learned to control my passion, use it wisly and it won't use you.
Passion causes one to cast pearls before swine.

bushman :}  

7 Mar 2002 @ 14:14 by ming : Government
I think "government" is a leftover from when Kings owned and ruled the land and everybody in it. I think we need coordination, but not to be ruled. It should be time to end slavery soon. But we need to figure out how to coordinate things amongst us without it, and that's not easy.  

7 Mar 2002 @ 16:02 by bushman : Pirate satellite
Hack a satellite, sat recivers and transmiters are getting real cheep, 600 bucks for the unit thats out now, just got to learn to hack the sat. If anything bad happens here, the sats will most likly be running still. How about we the american people just audit the gov? Anything we didnt pay for with a vote , they have to pay us tax on. :}  

29 Apr 2016 @ 00:17 by Wiseman @ : RDYHFGfuOnyBtpQbqWCN
Thanks alot - your answer solved all my problems after several days stgnrgliug  

29 Apr 2016 @ 05:01 by Deacon @ : dMHKKMzbBhsvrvr
really. It’s also annoying when stores have the “no dogs al2e&odw#8l21; signs, but all the people with small lap dogs still bring them in and don’t get yelled at.  

Other stories in
2011-11-14 17:19: Noi siamo la Nuova Civilizzazione
2007-02-16 21:57: NCN call for donations
2007-02-16 19:45: Biz yeni uygarlığız
2005-03-13 03:02: New Civilization Network, 10 years
2005-01-28 12:50: Ons is die Nuwe Beskawing
2004-10-01 23:59: Comment Spam
2003-06-06 21:05: Blocking
2002-12-30 22:39: A Little Server History
2002-12-20 16:10: I'm not that far behind
2002-12-18 18:16: Comments

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